BvS The Unabashed SPOILER Thread. ENTER AT OWN RISK. - Part 5

[Robin91939]

He blows up the flame thrower guy with the heavy machine gun. And he has zero problem with it. I actually had no problem with him killing that person by the way. It was a him or Martha situation and thus it is understandable to me. But use a batarang. Why the gun?

Batman losing people is not suppose to turn him into a killer. I keep hearing this idea, like it is a common theme with Batman. But I can't think of all these times where it happens. It surely isn't the majority. A Death in the Family happened, he didn't become a slaughter of his enemies. Damien died, he didn't slaughter people. Batman in the comics makes BvS look like he has had a walk in the park, and yet the moments of him losing himself or so little and far inbetween, that it literally is a 1000 to 1 shot.

We can say that is apart of his arc, but the question is then, why is that his arc? Why is that a good idea for Batman?

The bolded scene is almost a direct adaptation of The Dark Knight Returns when Batman saves the little boy hostage. In the animated film, they show Batman shooting the hostage-taker in the hand ... in the comic? It's not made clear if Batman shoots to kill or not.


As for losing people -- In every event in the comics, Bruce had someone to pull him out of the darkness. In the case of Jason, he had Tim. Tim became Robin for the very reason to bring Bruce out of the darkness. Because Batman had become increasingly violent after Jason's death. He was reckless and hurting people and himself. Not calculating risks. When Tim entered the picture and joined his side, Bruce had a reason to care again. He had a person to protect and someone whose safety he had to care about that forced him to worry about his own.

After Damien, he had the rest of the Batfamily.

In this universe, we haven't met Barbara, Dick or Tim. It's just Bruce and Alfred.

For all we know, Barbara is wheel-chair bound and gone. Dick is estranged and bitter. Jason is dead. And Tim hasn't entered the picture yet. For all we know Bruce truly is broken and alone.


-R

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That scene is directly lifted from the Dark Knight Returns, so I imagine it was simply Snyder referencing Frank Miller.

That is probably why I disliked it so much then.

 

[TheScarecrow]

The bolded scene is almost a direct adaptation of The Dark Knight Returns when Batman saves the little boy hostage. In the animated film, they show Batman shooting the hostage-taker in the hand ... in the comic? It's not made clear if Batman shoots to kill or not.


As for losing people -- In every event in the comics, Bruce had someone to pull him out of the darkness. In the case of Jason, he had Tim. Tim became for the very reason to bring Bruce out of the darkness. Because Batman had become increasingly violent after Jason's death. He was reckless and hurting people and himself. Not calculating risks. When Tim entered the picture and joined his side, Bruce had a reason to care again. He had a person to protect and someone who's safety he had to care about that forced him to worry about his own.

After Damien, he had the rest of the Batfamily.

In this universe, we haven't met Barbara, Dick or Tim. It's just Bruce and Alfred.

For all we know, Barbara is wheel-chair bound and gone. Dick is estranged and bitter. Jason is dead. And Tim hasn't entered the picture yet. For all we know Bruce truly is broken and alone.


-R

And the movie should have showed this instead of fifty pointless dream sequences.

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

That scene is directly lifted from the Dark Knight Returns, so I imagine it was simply Snyder referencing Frank Miller.

**** Frank Miller & Snyder's hardon for him.

Loeb, Dini, Timm, Morrison, Scott Snyder, Dennis O'Neal, Alan Moore, Mike Mignola, & more are better Batman writers. Not everything has to be Miller.

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

People say the 2 best adaptions of Batman are the Arkham games and DCAU. This is what happens when those BATMEN use guns

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[DarthSkywalker]

The bolded scene is almost a direct adaptation of The Dark Knight Returns when Batman saves the little boy hostage. In the animated film, they show Batman shooting the hostage-taker in the hand ... in the comic? It's not made clear if Batman shoots to kill or not.


As for losing people -- In every event in the comics, Bruce had someone to pull him out of the darkness. In the case of Jason, he had Tim. Tim became for the very reason to bring Bruce out of the darkness. Because Batman had become increasingly violent after Jason's death. He was reckless and hurting people and himself. Not calculating risks. When Tim entered the picture and joined his side, Bruce had a reason to care again. He had a person to protect and someone who's safety he had to care about that forced him to worry about his own.

After Damien, he had the rest of the Batfamily.

In this universe, we haven't met Barbara, Dick or Tim. It's just Bruce and Alfred.

For all we know, Barbara is wheel-chair bound and gone. Dick is estranged and bitter. Jason is dead. And Tim hasn't entered the picture yet. For all we know Bruce truly is broken and alone.


-R

Getting Batman out of his funk is not the same as him turning into a murderer. I think there is a difference between killing and murdering. Batman murderers people here. That is spiteful, that is dangerous. That isn't any Batman I have known or care to know.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Am I the only one who noticed that Lex's overall plan seemed more concerned with stopping Batman as opposed to Superman? Like in context, he tries to make it seem like it is about killing Superman, but he sent Superman with instructions to kill Batman. Which means he is betting on Superman being a better person then he thinks he is to not kill Batman.

 

[Sleiek]

Yes, because it is Batman and he hates guns. Look up all the moments in the comic over the last 30 years when he uses a real gun. It tears him apart. It is the symbol of his parents death. He reacts to the idea of the name Martha, but not the instrument of their destruction.

If guns are okay, why isn't he packing serious heat?

I get what you are saying, this is one of my favorite moments:

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But I don't know what else to tell you. I am not that picky. I am sure he could kill someone with the grappling gun if he wanted, it is not much different than firearms. Why doesn't that remind him of the handgun that killed his parents.

 

[TDKR1977]

Am I the only one who noticed that Lex's overall plan seemed more concerned with stopping Batman as opposed to Superman? Like in context, he tries to make it seem like it is about killing Superman, but he sent Superman with instructions to kill Batman. Which means he is betting on Superman being a better person then he thinks he is to not kill Batman.

Did you miss the part where Lex intentionally let him steal the kryptonite? You know, to kill Superman with?

ETA His intention was always to have Superman die. He manipulated him to force the confrontation.

 

[Robin91939]

Frank Miller is a fine place to draw inspiration for Batman. Some of Frank Miller.

But, yes. I agree that it should be balanced out with some Bruce Timm, Scott Snyder, Jeph Loeb, Denny O'Neil, Alan Moore, Paul Dini and Brian Azzarello (Broken City is still the best self-contained Batman story out there).

But for a grizzled, hardened Batman to differentiate him from Bale, Keaton, etc -- this was a good place to start.

-R

 

[TheTarkKnight]

That scene is directly lifted from the Dark Knight Returns, so I imagine it was simply Snyder referencing Frank Miller.

As soon as I saw that scene and heard the Mulvey say "believe me I'll do it!" I knew Bats would say "I believe you." Classic TDKR.

Zach missed a bunch but these type of homages paid in the movie are fantastic.

 

[Tilapia]

What was the thesis that Snyder was going for this time around? Superman is conflicted to kill or not kill to protect Earth in MoS and choose his purpose for himself, unlike Zod. Superman is conflicted to protect and serve or live a happy life with Lois devoid of responsibility. Batman hates Superman because he is an all powerful alien that can wipe out the Earth. The dichotomy just wasn't there. It's just a Synder action movie that delivers in that respect.

He tries to suck you in Nolan style with these intricate plot threads and severity and tension, especially the desert scenes. It had me going, but again, it's just a ploy to set up the bigger action pieces.

MoS had a simple premise. BvS had no real premise. It's a setup film, just like Marvel has been guilty of with some of the solo flicks.

This works for a team movie, but it doesn't work for a solo endeavor which is what the film should have been. Am I missing something about Batman or was he just hell bent on killing Supes from the beginning? Weird...

Mission accomplished on the setup. They get out of the 'Superman is OP' conundrum and the trinity scene was well done.

Get two different directors for Justice League. Sadly I think Snyder gets one more for his magnum Opus CGI action extravaganza.

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

Getting Batman out of his funk is not the same as him turning into a murderer. I think there is a difference between killing and murdering. Batman murderers people here. That is spiteful, that is dangerous. That isn't any Batman I have known or care to know.

Batman dragging a car with people inside with the Batmobile & throwing it into another car with people in it was the hardest thing I've ever had to sit through & watch. I was in shock I was seeing what I saw. I nearly left.

Someone show me where that happened in the comics.

 

[Roose Bolton]

That is probably why I disliked it so much then.

**** Frank Miller & Snyder's hardon for him.

Loeb, Dini, Timm, Morrison, Scott Snyder, Dennis O'Neal, Alan Moore, Mike Mignola, & more are better Batman writers. Not everything has to be Miller.

I'm not going to argue the merits of Frank Miller's talents as a writer, I'm just pointing out that's a scene that has basis in the comics.

The main thing that got me thinking though, is that the guy in question was the man who becomes KGBeast. Potentially we could see him again in a Batfleck solo film if they ever want an "out" to that scene.

 

[Cats]

I am talking about the intent. He branded people so they'd be attacked in jail. This ended up with a person dead. At least one person.

Imagine a rapist who took advantage of a unarmed, unaware, underaged girl and was directly responsible for her death. Imagine him going on and doing that to a few other children. He gets beat up and branded by a vigilante for his crimes, then arrested by the authorities. While in jail, the rest of the prisoners hear of his deeds, see the brand, and decide to beat him to death (even criminals have their code). Be honest, would you blame the vigilante or the rapist?

 

[Robin91939]

Am I the only one who noticed that Lex's overall plan seemed more concerned with stopping Batman as opposed to Superman? Like in context, he tries to make it seem like it is about killing Superman, but he sent Superman with instructions to kill Batman. Which means he is betting on Superman being a better person then he thinks he is to not kill Batman.

Lex's plan:
Expose Superman as a fraud, or have him killed.

Option A: Superman flies to Gotham and kills the Batman. He brings Batman's head to Luthor at the site of the crashed alien ship where there are hundreds of network news cameras and Luthor can show the world that Superman is the killer everyone thought he is and ruin his reputation for good ...

... or ...

Option B: Batman uses the hate for Superman that Luthor has fueled and the weapons that Luthor has essentially supplied him with (Lex is the one who found and smuggled the Kryptonite from another hemisphere) to kill Superman. The end. Clean and simple.

Either option leaves Superman out of Luthor's way. Broken or dead. Those are Superman's two options as he flies to Gotham to confront Batman.

-R

 

[Reek]

That is probably why I disliked it so much then.

you hate frank miller?

Batman dragging a car with people inside with the Batmobile & throwing it into another car with people in it was the hardest thing I've ever had to sit through & watch. I was in shock I was seeing what I saw. I nearly left.

So is this your first movie.. or....

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

Why are rapists branded but not the Joker?

 

[Cats]

Batman dragging a car with people inside with the Batmobile & throwing it into another car with people in it

Having heard that Batman kills in this movie, I took special notice of the inside of that car, and not once did I see a person in there. It was an empty vehicle, and it did smash into that other car with two men in it. But like with the tumbler, we'll just have to assume there were no deaths incurred.

 

[Cats]

Why are rapists branded but not the Joker?

Have you seen the Joker naked? Could also explain why he has so many tattoos :P.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Why are rapists branded but not the Joker?

Batman figured the brand on his forehead was punishment enough

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

you hate frank miller?



So is this your first movie.. or....

No but it's just how Batman is my favorite superhero, and I'm watching him do this. It's stupid on so many levels. It shouldn't have happened. Only a director with the mindset of "it looks badass" and not that "Batman would do this" would choose to do that.

It's the dumbest thing I've seen. I'd take Batnipples & Bat credit cards over it. If the car is down for the count, why grapple it, drag it through the streets, & throw it at another car?

 

[Sleiek]

What was the thesis that Snyder was going for this time around? Superman is conflicted to kill or not kill to protect Earth in MoS and choose his purpose for himself, unlike Zod. Superman is conflicted to protect and serve or live a happy life with Lois devoid of responsibility. Batman hates Superman because he is an all powerful alien that can wipe out the Earth. The dichotomy just wasn't there. It's just a Synder action movie that delivers in that respect.

He tries to suck you in Nolan style with these intricate plot threads and severity and tension, especially the desert scenes. It had me going, but again, it's just a ploy to set up the bigger action pieces.

MoS had a simple premise. BvS had no real premise. It's a setup film, just like Marvel has been guilty of with some of the solo flicks.

This works for a team movie, but it doesn't work for a solo endeavor which is what the film should have been. Am I missing something about Batman or was he just hell bent on killing Supes from the beginning? Weird...

Mission accomplished on the setup. They get out of the 'Superman is OP' conundrum and the trinity scene was well done.

Get two different directors for Justice League. Sadly I think Snyder gets one more for his magnum Opus CGI action extravaganza.

I am under the impression that Knightmare sequence messed him up real good.

 

[Rapunzel]

I'm pondering the scene with Lois and Clark, right before he goes off to the mechsuit fight. Did it seem like he was upset at having to kill Bruce? It seemed like it, but of course, he doesn't actually intend to do that. It seemed like there was some inconsistency there....or was that just my take?

 

[ThePhantasm]

Why are rapists branded but not the Joker?

How do we know Joker isn't branded?