BvS The Unabashed SPOILER Thread. ENTER AT OWN RISK. - Part 5

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So, in a nutshell your gripe is that you had to think for yourself as you werent being spoonfed. I can imagine how that may have been taxing........
I don't think asking for a coherent story that sets up like eight different plot lines or so but barely explains any of them is wanting to be spoonfed.

Asking for a good script to back up a movie that wants to bolster a lot isn't wanting to be spoonfed at all.

Inference can be a powerful story telling method. The bad thing is? Over reliance on it can make your script look lazy.

It can also only been done right when you know what you're doing. Snyder and his writing team had no clue what they were doing with this script.
 
Regarding Jimmy, what if the Jimmy killed was actually A CIA Agent posing as him while perhaps the Real Jimmy Olsen could still be alive?! Snyder did mention that the Ultimate Cut will contain more on Africa at the start so maybe we're jumping into it too quickly. Just a thought. :)
 
Regarding Jimmy, what if the Jimmy killed was actually A CIA Agent posing as him while perhaps the Real Jimmy Olsen could still be alive?! Snyder did mention that the Ultimate Cut will contain more on Africa at the start so maybe we're jumping into it too quickly. Just a thought. :)

No, Snyder said it's the real Jimmy Olsen.
 
It's not a mystery if it doesn't make sense. It's just a "huh" moment that takes away from the rest of the movie.

He didn't need the dream sequence figure to tell him to find the others. Once he found Wonder Woman, he naturally would have wanted to track down the rest. Weird Flash man telling him to isn't necessary.
But the metas need a reason to join with Bruce and he'll tell them about the dream which will help get them on board
 
If Superman can come back from being stabbed in the damn heart, how come Zod can't come back from a broken neck?
 
If Superman can come back from being stabbed in the damn heart, how come Zod can't come back from a broken neck?
Because the Codex made him superior (no pun intended) Kryptonian? It's not outright explained so far, so it's just my guess, but maybe it will be later.
 
If Superman can come back from being stabbed in the damn heart, how come Zod can't come back from a broken neck?
Main character privilege essentially thus far until better explained but don't get your hopes up considering this movie.
 
Why is there always a God awful line at the end of these movies?

"I just think he's kinda hot..." (MoS)

"What makes you think we need to come together???? I just got a feeling"

New Snyder trademark.
 
So, in a nutshell your gripe is that you had to think for yourself as you werent being spoonfed. I can imagine how that may have been taxing........

so i have to come up with the reason why Thor was taking a bath? come on...
 
Why is there always a God awful line at the end of these movies?

"I just think he's kinda hot..." (MoS)

"What makes you think we need to come together???? I just got a feeling"

New Snyder trademark.

I didn't mind Bruces line. It hearkened back to the nightmare effectively.
 
Why is there always a God awful line at the end of these movies?

"I just think he's kinda hot..." (MoS)
I didn't like this line and a couple of others, but after that there was a great line "Welcome to the Planet".

"What makes you think we need to come together???? I just got a feeling"
I watched the movie in dub, but it sounded a bit sarcastic. Like, "really, woman?"
 
Why is there always a God awful line at the end of these movies?

"I just think he's kinda hot..." (MoS)

"What makes you think we need to come together???? I just got a feeling"

New Snyder trademark.

That line worked well because Bruce is still processing what the hell it was - "did I dream it? was it real? did someone show it to me?"

BTW, Snyder doesn't write the script, he helps story board the concepts. That is a Terrio thing.
 
No, Snyder said it's the real Jimmy Olsen.

GAH, why did he do it - WHY?! His excuse for not having any room for him within the DCU is a POOR EXCUSE! There was just no point. Why can't he still exist, and yet there's still bloody Jenny!!!!! :cmad:
 
I gave this film a C+ yesterday, but upon rethinking it, this probably deserves a D or perhaps an F.

Batman vs Superman has a few moments of fun, but these are inevitable given the source material being plundered. As Zack Snyder said, Batman and Superman are not flavours-of-the-week like Ant Man, they are part of American mythology, so I don't think we should give Snyder much credit for harvesting/strip-mining the mythology. He needs to be able to grow it (which I think he did with MoS), and really with BvS I'm relatively confident that they are harming the franchise and harming the brand.

I do notice on this forum and another that long-time fans did find some joy in the film, as I did. I think it relates to Snyder's cinematic style of the premature nerdgasm. Dawn of Justice contains elements from Both The Death of Superman arc and The Dark Knight Returns, both of which are climactic stories that worked very well because they were built on a strong foundation. They have some legendary panels and sequences of panels, such as Lois Lane taking a helicopter to find a dying Superman fighting Doomsday, and then crying over his dead corpse as the Justice League watches powerlessly, or alternatively the panel of Superman's frail body after being hit by a nuclear blast. These were really great panels in the comics because they fit in the story and made them famous. I remember them and you do too. They worked well in their stories because they were payoffs to long ****ing chains of setups. Snyder implements them without the setup, and I don't think they work for the general audience that doesn't know the mythology well. However, the passionate fans are already invested into these characters prior to seeing the movie, they've already been going through the setups for 15 years, 30 years, and so on, so for them it feels like a payoff.

That's not good though. First of all it means that these great stories now cannot be used for a long time as Snyder has used them, he has harvested and strip-mined the DC comics pantheon. Second, though the fans may have felt a payoff at some of those scenes, the general audience does not. They don't get the same emotional resonance as we do from scenes like the funeral scene, as such the movie can be regarded as a form of asset stripping. The 1938 joke for example will be completely unfunny to anybody that doesn't know that Superman started in 1938, which is ~99% of the audience. As such, it's probably not a good joke.

Finally, this movie has done virtually irreparable harm to the franchise since numerous important characters have been undermined. Jimmy Olsen is dead. Lex Luthor is a henchman of Darkseid rather than his own person, and the reason he's evil is that his father abused him. Martha and Thomas Wayne, who have always been portrayed as peaceful, are now violent badasses. The damage done to Superman is something that I don't see as fixable: Rather than addressing the Zod death to lead to the no-kill rule as promised, they double down by having Superman kill Zod again since he is reincarnated as Doomsday. Further, it's likely Superman killed that black terrorist guy at the start by kicking him through walls. Finally, Batman's vision of the future shows that Superman becomes killer if he doesn't have Lois Lane to anchor him, which is subsequently explicitly confirmed by Flash travelling back in time. This is really a bizarre evolution in characterization for Superman's no-kill rule: Previous to Snyder he normally didn't kill, then after MoS we heard he needed to kill Zod first to develop a no-kill rule, then in BvS we learn that Superman is a killer whenever he doesn't have Lois Lane. It's not just bizarre actually, it's gross.

This is a deeply profound failure of a film.
 
Just on the point that Superman is a killer without Lois I didn't get that from the Knightmare scene. Isn't Superman mind controlled by Darkseid? I assumed what Flash meant was a sort of butterfly effect with Lois that somehow ensuring her safety prevents a chain of events that leads Supes to fall under Darkseids control.
 
Just on the point that Superman is a killer without Lois I didn't get that from the Knightmare scene. Isn't Superman mind controlled by Darkseid? I assumed what Flash meant was a sort of butterfly effect with Lois that somehow ensuring her safety prevents a chain of events that leads Supes to fall under Darkseids control.

Superman being controlled by Darkseid is something you're adding to the script.

What the script does include is Superman telling Batman "you took the woman I love" after being shown as evil, and before killing Batman. Then Batman wakes up, sees Flash from the future who says "Yes, you're right, Lois Lane is the key".

Ergo, whether or not Superman becomes a mass murderer comes down to Lois Lane. That is what's in the movie.
 
Can I just say, even though I think the notion that Supes is a killer in this film is BS

The way in which that scene was done shows the stupidity of the director. We shouldn't even be allowed to debate it, but Snyders filmed it in a way that could be easily misinterpreted as Superman having propelled a man through concrete walls, sheer stupidity Zack, sheer stupidity
 
If this version of Batman was a detective or wasn't a killer I would agree - but he isn't. Batman knows how to win a fight. Supermans last words was to save Martha. So what I have seen so far in this movie, Bruce would have driven that spear in Clarks heart, and went to save Martha himself.

"You have to save Martha"
"Ok Yeah buddy, Buh-Bye"

Batman does detective work in this movie. How did you think he managed to track down the kryptonite and later steal it from Lex? Also... I too wish Snyder had avoided scenes of Batman killing, although I managed to enjoy Batman 89 by blotting out those scenes of him killing, in the same way I've blotted out any scenes in the Nolan series with scenes of Batman inflicting death on passerbys, and am doing so in this movie so I can enjoy everything else. Getting bogged down and depressed about cinematic deaths alone can ruin an entire movie experience, and has damaged people's enjoyment even of TDK. It's a movie, yeah the director probably should've took more care to explain that nobody died in this or that scene, but then again, Bryan Singer went down that road and we were left with the atrocity of Superman Returns. Somethings doesn't always work, and we fans are notoriously meticulous nitpickers. Put all that aside and enjoy the movie for the parts that do connect with our view of the comics - you'll be surprised how much of it does connect.
 
I gave this film a C+ yesterday, but upon rethinking it, this probably deserves a D or perhaps an F.

Batman vs Superman has a few moments of fun, but these are inevitable given the source material being plundered. As Zack Snyder said, Batman and Superman are not flavours-of-the-week like Ant Man, they are part of American mythology, so I don't think we should give Snyder much credit for harvesting/strip-mining the mythology. He needs to be able to grow it (which I think he did with MoS), and really with BvS I'm relatively confident that they are harming the franchise and harming the brand.

I do notice on this forum and another that long-time fans did find some joy in the film, as I did. I think it relates to Snyder's cinematic style of the premature nerdgasm. Dawn of Justice contains elements from Both The Death of Superman arc and The Dark Knight Returns, both of which are climactic stories that worked very well because they were built on a strong foundation. They have some legendary panels and sequences of panels, such as Lois Lane taking a helicopter to find a dying Superman fighting Doomsday, and then crying over his dead corpse as the Justice League watches powerlessly, or alternatively the panel of Superman's frail body after being hit by a nuclear blast. These were really great panels in the comics because they fit in the story and made them famous. I remember them and you do too. They worked well in their stories because they were payoffs to long ****ing chains of setups. Snyder implements them without the setup, and I don't think they work for the general audience that doesn't know the mythology well. However, the passionate fans are already invested into these characters prior to seeing the movie, they've already been going through the setups for 15 years, 30 years, and so on, so for them it feels like a payoff.

That's not good though. First of all it means that these great stories now cannot be used for a long time as Snyder has used them, he has harvested and strip-mined the DC comics pantheon. Second, though the fans may have felt a payoff at some of those scenes, the general audience does not. They don't get the same emotional resonance as we do from scenes like the funeral scene, as such the movie can be regarded as a form of asset stripping. The 1938 joke for example will be completely unfunny to anybody that doesn't know that Superman started in 1938, which is ~99% of the audience. As such, it's probably not a good joke.

Finally, this movie has done virtually irreparable harm to the franchise since numerous important characters have been undermined. Jimmy Olsen is dead. Lex Luthor is a henchman of Darkseid rather than his own person, and the reason he's evil is that his father abused him. Martha and Thomas Wayne, who have always been portrayed as peaceful, are now violent badasses. The damage done to Superman is something that I don't see as fixable: Rather than addressing the Zod death to lead to the no-kill rule as promised, they double down by having Superman kill Zod again since he is reincarnated as Doomsday. Further, it's likely Superman killed that black terrorist guy at the start by kicking him through walls. Finally, Batman's vision of the future shows that Superman becomes killer if he doesn't have Lois Lane to anchor him, which is subsequently explicitly confirmed by Flash travelling back in time. This is really a bizarre evolution in characterization for Superman's no-kill rule: Previous to Snyder he normally didn't kill, then after MoS we heard he needed to kill Zod first to develop a no-kill rule, then in BvS we learn that Superman is a killer whenever he doesn't have Lois Lane. It's not just bizarre actually, it's gross.

This is a deeply profound failure of a film.


the only true failure of this film is that it made your understanding of the movie completely different from others. it's like we watched and understood a film based on a comic in 2 completely different ways.
 
So there are some definitely leaps in logic here:

1. Lois has no idea about Doomsday and certainly no idea he is a Kryptonian when she goes back to get the spear. In fact, Lois doesn't even know what kryptonite is or what the spear is made of;

2. Batman sends Diana an email while he is on the battlefield waiting for Superman (!). When this is all starting, she is out in public and while only minutes pass, she is suddenly at home in a completely different outfit, relaxing and checking her emails;

3. Lex Luthor's plan makes no sense. He kidnaps Martha to get Superman to kill Batman and makes it sound like he'll be filming it...all so he can ruin Superman's reputation - this implies he knows Batman is going to want to fight Superman. But how? All he knows is that it looks like Batman stole the Kryptonite, but how does he know this wasn't to destroy it to keep his buddy Clark safe? And how did he know in advance where Batman would be setting up the fight or when?

Some of the many reasons this is a bad, bad, bad film. Really poor effort by Snyder and Terrio. No thought went into anything.
 
Marvel doesn't get a pass. The scene with Thor in the lightning bath thing in AoU is just as bad. Didn't make any sense. Poorly explained. No one gives a pass to Marvel when they don't do it right. I already admitted that when I have to explain too much after watching a Marvel movie that the movie didn't do a good enough job.

I feel like this film didn't either. It wasn't clear. It wasn't even sort of clear.

Agreed. The Flash scene was completely unnecessary. It came out of nowhere and just left me feeling confused. They tried way too hard to incorporate Justice League elements.
 
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