BvS The Unabashed SPOILER Thread. ENTER AT OWN RISK. - Part 5

[clarkkent]

Why did they bring in Olsen and Mercy to just kill them off? Why did Lex need to kidnap Martha and shove Lois off the building to get Superman's attention to fight Batman? Superman told him already that if he turned on the batlight he'd take him down Totally unnecessary! It would have been enough for Lex to do a few things behind the scenes to further push their tolerance levels of each other. My God I can't understand the decisions of this film Snyder!!!!

Why did Lois know all the sudden to care about the kryptonite after she blundered it away into the water? *oh let me go back and get that for some reason* What was the point, to give Batman a reason to run away and then do nothing (as the superheroes did their thing)? Contrived and silly where the ends never even meet story wise. Batman was acting like he'd go back and obtain the kryptonite spear and then had nothing to do with getting it, or using it.

 

[Steelsheen]

as thrilled as i was seeing Ezra!Flash.... i couldnt really understand what he was saying something something about Lois and being the key and yeah.... how is that related to the current plot? apparently it was something because in the end Bats and Supes were going by their first names although my brain just went-- they probably figured that out on their own and didnt have anything to do with The Flash.

 

[The Guard]

Batman's response is great, but why did Superman call her Martha? Why in God's name? It's just lazy.

Because he thinks he is going to die. If he's going to die, he wants her to be saved anyway. He is resigned to death, and says "You have to save Martha" and starts to say "Kent" before Batman cuts him off with his boot. He's telling Batman with his last words, that this is all he wants. To save this woman. He is making this about saving innocents.

 

[samsnee]

According to Snyder, he killed Superman as a way to remove him from the story while Batman forms the Justice League. Because if Superman was still around, then he would have to be the one to do so. And killing him was a "cool" mechanism to get him out of the way for Batman.

http://www.ign.com/videos/2016/03/26/bvs-spoilers-zack-snyder-on-the-ending-and-forming-the-justice-league

It's clear that Snyder doesn't care about Superman. It's also clear that when he doesn't know what to do with a character, he kills them as evidenced by Superman and Jimmy Olsen.

 

[Greens]

Because he thinks he is going to die. If he's going to die, he wants her to be saved. He says "You have to save Martha" and starts to say "Kent" before Batman cuts him off with his boot. He's telling Batman with his last words, that this is all he wants. To save this woman. He is making this about saving innocents.

Really? He starts to say Kent? If that's true, my criticism is invalid.

I only remember him saying Martha and thinking "huh? why didn't he just call her his mother"

 

[CaptainWagner]

It's like the only way that could have ended in an emotionally satisfying manner without being just "let's not fight anymore". And the response Batman has is powerful. He's essentially preventing someone from going through what he did. Which is the core of his character.

Because he thinks he is going to die. If he's going to die, he wants her to be saved anyway. He is resigned to death, and says "You have to save Martha" and starts to say "Kent" before Batman cuts him off with his boot. He's telling Batman with his last words, that this is all he wants. To save this woman. He is making this about saving innocents.

^^ This. I didn't catch the Kent part, will have to look for it next time. But this is a great explanation. This was one of my favorite parts.

 

[The Guard]

^^ This. I didn't catch the Kent part, will have to look for it next time. But this is a great explanation. This was one of my favorite parts.

It's an incredible catharsis.

 

[Donner]

I think that beginning part with Bruce describing his dream of being lifted into the light by the bats annoyed me the most. I'm sure there's some kind of pretentious imagery around it, but it made me roll my eyes.

 

[Robin91939]

According to Snyder, he killed Superman as a way to remove him from the story while Batman forms the Justice League. Because if Superman was still around, then he would have to be the one to do so. And killing him was a "cool" mechanism to get him out of the way for Batman.

http://www.ign.com/videos/2016/03/26/bvs-spoilers-zack-snyder-on-the-ending-and-forming-the-justice-league

He's RIGHT.

In a real world, you cannot justify the existence of the Justice League if Superman exists.

If Superman exists, yeah, he's the heavy hitter. He's the one in charge and there isn't really a reason for the League because Superman can stop any threat on his own. A League of heroes, comprised of less powerful heroes, is just superfluous.

In Man Of Steel, he stopped what is basically an army of Supermen when he takes down a group of Kryptonians. He does this without the help of other heroes and on his own.

If you don't show that Superman is vulnerable, that he can be beaten or even killed -- what real threat is there?

You have to introduce a threat that takes more than Superman to bring down -- and that's what Doomsday was. Even if you argue that it could have been Wonder Woman to drive the spear in, and that Superman would have been able to live -- you NEED Superman to die. You need to show that he can be in real peril.

Otherwise, if someone like Darkseid comes along, it would just be: Oh, give Superman enough time. He might get beat up, but he'll win for sure. He can't be killed. It's a foregone conclusion that he'll win eventually.

There would be no stakes.

Killing Superman gives the coming battle with Darkseid stakes. He can die. He can lose. And if we see that Superman can ultimately return, we will at least see that he can be taken out of the equation long enough for the threat to destroy the world and kill the more vulnerable Justice League members.

This was the right decision.

-R

 

[The Guard]

There's also the Christ Figure angle. Rising again to overcome the devil and bring us hope.

 

[BH/HHH]

I get it, Batman brings them together but it won't work without Superman. They will join him in the Sun, his death will inspire them but they will need him to lead them in order to defeat Darkseid.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

Anybody else notice the crosses in the background after wonder woman put supes body on the ground? Lol i usually ignore the Christ comparison stuff, but that one stood out.

 

[clarkkent]

Did Bruce see a vision that Darkseid was coming so knows to form team? That would have made sense for the formation with Superman dying. His other vision about Superman being a threat, ended up in real life with him dead. So if the threat was Superman in future and he's dead, what's the point of forming the team now? lol, did I miss that he saw a Darkseid vision somewhere?

 

[Robin91939]

Anybody else notice the crosses in the background after wonder woman put supes body on the ground? Lol i usually ignore the Christ comparison stuff, but that one stood out.

Yes -- and the twist on the scene of Lois cradling a dead Superman flanked by Batman and Wonder Woman is beautiful and simply iconic imagery.

The panel from Death Of Superman in the comics of Lois cradling Superman was always an allusion to Mary holding Christ after he was taken down from the cross.


This stuff has, is and always will be a part of Superman's character. Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster created him based on biblical myth. He was always meant to be a messianic figure.

-R

 

[Robin91939]

Did Bruce see a vision that Darkseid was coming so knows to form team? That would have made sense for the formation with Superman dying. His other vision about Superman being a threat, ended up in real life with him dead. So if the threat was Superman in future and he's dead, what's the point of forming the team now? lol, did I miss that he saw a Darkseid vision somewhere?

Re-watch the scene where Batman confronts Lex in prison.

-R

 

[The Guard]

Did Bruce see a vision that Darkseid was coming so knows to form team? That would have made sense for the formation with Superman dying. His other vision about Superman being a threat, ended up in real life with him dead. So if the threat was Superman in future and he's dead, what's the point of forming the team now? lol, did I miss that he saw a Darkseid vision somewhere?

Based on his vision and Lex's threat, he knows something bad is coming.

The allusions Lex makes to the person coming from the stars is referring to Darkseid. His allusion to The devil is the same.

In that vision, the Justice League was likely never formed.

 

[The Guard]

Anybody else notice the crosses in the background after wonder woman put supes body on the ground? Lol i usually ignore the Christ comparison stuff, but that one stood out.

Yup. Being wrapped in his cape is significant too. He's being "taken off the cross"

 

[matt47]

So uhh...I just cut out the whole Africa/Bullet subplot from the film and guess what? Nothing feels removed and it's only 1hr 59 mins long.

 

[clarkkent]

Based on his vision and Lex's threat, he knows something bad is coming.

The allusions Lex makes to the person coming from the stars is referring to Darkseid. His allusion to The devil is the same.

In that vision, the Justice League was likely never formed.

So basically Bruce is not yet aware of the Darkseid threat and never saw a vision for that threat (which would have made more sense) for a motive of creating the JL team?

 

[Greens]

So uhh...I just cut out the whole Africa/Bullet subplot from the film and guess what? Nothing feels removed and it's only 1hr 59 mins long.

Yup. It was a way to make Lois relevant to the plot, not much else.

 

[matt47]

Yup. It was a way to make Lois relevant to the plot, not much else.

It feels 100 times better now when the senate hearing happens because it feels like it's about the black zero event. I cut it so it doesn't seem like it's two years later which was pretty easy.

 

[Tony Gunk]

He's RIGHT.

In a real world, you cannot justify the existence of the Justice League if Superman exists.

If Superman exists, yeah, he's the heavy hitter. He's the one in charge and there isn't really a reason for the League because Superman can stop any threat on his own. A League of heroes, comprised of less powerful heroes, is just superfluous.

In Man Of Steel, he stopped what is basically an army of Supermen when he takes down a group of Kryptonians. He does this without the help of other heroes and on his own.

If you don't show that Superman is vulnerable, that he can be beaten or even killed -- what real threat is there?

You have to introduce a threat that takes more than Superman to bring down -- and that's what Doomsday was. Even if you argue that it could have been Wonder Woman to drive the spear in, and that Superman would have been able to live -- you NEED Superman to die. You need to show that he can be in real peril.

Otherwise, if someone like Darkseid comes along, it would just be: Oh, give Superman enough time. He might get beat up, but he'll win for sure. He can't be killed. It's a foregone conclusion that he'll win eventually.

There would be no stakes.

Killing Superman gives the coming battle with Darkseid stakes. He can die. He can lose. And if we see that Superman can ultimately return, we will at least see that he can be taken out of the equation long enough for the threat to destroy the world and kill the more vulnerable Justice League members.

This was the right decision.

-R

Maybe in a world where Superman can be in 2, 3 or 4 places at once. But since he can't, that's a poor cop out for me.

 

[Cats]

as thrilled as i was seeing Ezra!Flash.... i couldnt really understand what he was saying something something about Lois and being the key and yeah.... how is that related to the current plot? apparently it was something because in the end Bats and Supes were going by their first names although my brain just went-- they probably figured that out on their own and didnt have anything to do with The Flash.

I think it was Robin91939 who had an exact quote. It goes something like this (sorry if I'm paraphrasing) "Bruce you gotta listen! Oh am I too soon? Yeah I'm too soon. You were right. You were right about everything. Lois is the key. You need to look for us."

It's very related to the current plot because Flash shows Batman a terror-filled future ruled by an evil Superman, and this compels him even more to take Supes down. I don't recall first names to be stated within that act with the Flash.

 

[The Guard]

So basically Bruce is not yet aware of the Darkseid threat and never saw a vision for that threat (which would have made more sense) for a motive of creating the JL team?

He knows that something awful is coming.

They aren't going to give everything away at once.

 

[Clark-Kent]

Superman "died" so wouldn't Batman feel the threat was taken care of actually?