BvS The Unabashed SPOILER Thread. ENTER AT OWN RISK. - Part 5

[Saint]

People don't seem to understand half this movie. I despair the species, because it isn't that complicated.

I understand the movie just fine, and that's precisely why I'm able to say I dislike it.

 

[Cats]

I think the fact Flash's warning is separate from the knightmare is a sign the two might be unrelated. Flash does say "it's too soon" which doesn't jive with Supes turning evil-- it's not too soon for that warning.

these are the sorts of things that will leave the general audience scratching their heads. They didn't even make it obvious that it was The Flash! Show the logo on him, show some red or something.

Also not being able to understand anything but "Lois is the key, you were right about him" was a misfire. Added to that, if the suggestion is that if Lois died Superman would turn on everyone, then that's another wonderful misrepresentation of the character of Kal-El.

It's related, but I'm pretty sure intentionally put across for people to mistake it for something else (like how Tony Gunk came to that conclusion about evil Kal-El, the product of Lois' death). We've seen how abstract Snyder can be, so nothing is what it seems, especially in nightmare sequences like that.

Here are my thoughts:

If the Flash had never come back through time to send a warning, Bruce, Clark and the entire JL would go on their separate ways until the invasion of Darkseid that causes earth's devastation, which none of the JL members alone can prevent. Bruce might scramble at that point to assemble the JL, but by then it would be too late to stop Darkseid. At some point, Lois may be killed or disappear due to these events, and being all alone, Superman will be completely susceptible to Darkseid's influence, turning him into the pawn of Apokolips, his rage (a product of mind control) laying blame upon anyone who did not manage to prevent Lois' death.

With Flash's warning, Bruce can assemble the JL early enough to preempt this future. It's too soon because Bruce hasn't seen the files on the meta humans yet. He's probably completely baffled by the visit by Flash, but then later puts it all together.

 

[Kanon]

He's RIGHT.

In a real world, you cannot justify the existence of the Justice League if Superman exists.

If Superman exists, yeah, he's the heavy hitter. He's the one in charge and there isn't really a reason for the League because Superman can stop any threat on his own. A League of heroes, comprised of less powerful heroes, is just superfluous.

In Man Of Steel, he stopped what is basically an army of Supermen when he takes down a group of Kryptonians. He does this without the help of other heroes and on his own.

Wrong. He had a lot of help while battling Zod and the world engine. And there are lot of things Supes can't do, or is not as good as others (like Batman is better solving problems, able to find Martha Kent while Supes only plan was beg for help to Bats).

That kind of limited thinking about what challenges Superman might face is the biggest problem writters have telling stories for him.

 

[4thWallBreaker]

The Flash scene is one of those scenes that should be at the end of the movie or after credits.

Yeah, I agree. I'd have kept that for not only after-credits stinger, but left out the nightmare sequence with the parademons all together. Flash showing up and saying all that (not in a dream sequence) would rattle Batman into rethinking Superman and contingency plans for the metahuman files he's come across. It would've hit harder. I think Flash should've been the only one to pop up in the flick. Cyborg and the Motherbox was the only one I thought was interesting. Flash's file was simple and Aquaman's was so awkward.

 

[Cats]

I still think they should have had the film happen pretty close to the Black Zero event instead of two years later. I mean, no character that was in Man of Steel has really grown so much to warrant a two year gap. Plus this way you wouldn't need Lex to get people to be afraid of Supes, they would still be in shock of the Black Zero attack.

What happened within the two year gap was covered in the pre-BvS comics. It has Superman helping out his fellow man, rescuing a speeding train etc, and officials discussing his unwillingness to take on political sides. It's a good read, you should go for it. Jamming all that action, ie. MoS and directly followed by BvS, within a couple of weeks/months in-story time would be ridiculous. Not to mention, Cavill previously expounded on the perils of hero-worship. It would take about two years for the critics to arise out of an adoring public and turn them to spite. People need time to form an opinion, or to change theirs. BvS is therefore a natural consequence of MoS, given a breathing-space of a time frame for public spite to develop.

 

[Mjölnir]

I understand the movie just fine, and that's precisely why I'm able to say I dislike it.

The accusation also means less when coming from someone that has basically told people "you're wrong, this is how it is" on purely subjective issues regarding the movie as well.

 

[Motown Marvel]

He's RIGHT.

In a real world, you cannot justify the existence of the Justice League if Superman exists.

If Superman exists, yeah, he's the heavy hitter. He's the one in charge and there isn't really a reason for the League because Superman can stop any threat on his own. A League of heroes, comprised of less powerful heroes, is just superfluous.

In Man Of Steel, he stopped what is basically an army of Supermen when he takes down a group of Kryptonians. He does this without the help of other heroes and on his own.

If you don't show that Superman is vulnerable, that he can be beaten or even killed -- what real threat is there?

You have to introduce a threat that takes more than Superman to bring down -- and that's what Doomsday was. Even if you argue that it could have been Wonder Woman to drive the spear in, and that Superman would have been able to live -- you NEED Superman to die. You need to show that he can be in real peril.

Otherwise, if someone like Darkseid comes along, it would just be: Oh, give Superman enough time. He might get beat up, but he'll win for sure. He can't be killed. It's a foregone conclusion that he'll win eventually.

There would be no stakes.

Killing Superman gives the coming battle with Darkseid stakes. He can die. He can lose. And if we see that Superman can ultimately return, we will at least see that he can be taken out of the equation long enough for the threat to destroy the world and kill the more vulnerable Justice League members.

This was the right decision.

-R

Or...how about superman using his status as a heavy hitter to inspire the other heroes to come together as a common good for humanity in defense of threats and dangers which are larger than any one of them allowing the heroes to coordinate their efforts to support each other in their missions? That might make more sense in regards to both story and characterization instead of having superman go on a melodramatic and completely unnecessary suicide run in a contrived attempt to force a nonsensical plot line which continues the bleak and joyless atmosphere of these films.

Just an idea.

 

[BobJM]

Did anyone know Costner was in this film? I genuinely had no clue so that was actually a really nice surprise, although I'm not too sure about the scene itself

I didn't know he was going to be in the movie, but I thought his bit was better than any of his dialogue in MOS. Pleasantly surprised at their exchange.

 

[Plaidchuck]

Remember when black adam was rumored to be in this? Good times.

 

[Robin91939]

Or...how about superman using his status as a heavy hitter to inspire the other heroes to come together as a common good for humanity in defense of threats and dangers which are larger than any one of them allowing the heroes to coordinate their efforts to support each other in their missions? That might make more sense in regards to both story and characterization instead of having superman go on a melodramatic and completely unnecessary suicide run in a contrived attempt to force a nonsensical plot line which continues the bleak and joyless atmosphere of these films.

Just an idea.

I don't think that your take is invalid or wouldn't work.

But you really can't say that Superman giving his life to stop an unstoppable threat is melodramatic. Really? It was inspiring and heroic. It was Superman going from: "It meant something on my world. My world doesn't exist anymore." To: THIS is his world. LOIS is his world. And it's a world he is willing to die to protect.

It's selfless. It's heroic. It's Superman.

Why can we not have it both ways?

- Superman sacrifices himself in an ultimate act of heroism.
- Batman gathers up the remaining metahumans to band together and essentially re-creaete Superman in the aggregate. (Wonder Woman: Super strength. Flash: Super speed, so on)
- Still, this group (Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Cyborg and Aquaman) is not enough.
- Superman returns either to life or to his true form at a point in the film and completes the team, inspiring and rallying the heroes and pushing them to win the fight.

Cavill has stated in interviews that the "leader of the Justice League" is a debate that is waged between Batman and Superman throughout the film. Just because Batman is the one who rounds them up -- doesn't mean that he's the one who "leads" them.

-R

 

[The Guard]

Or...how about superman using his status as a heavy hitter to inspire the other heroes to come together as a common good for humanity in defense of threats and dangers which are larger than any one of them allowing the heroes to coordinate their efforts to support each other in their missions? That might make more sense in regards to both story and characterization instead of having superman go on a melodramatic and completely unnecessary suicide run in a contrived attempt to force a nonsensical plot line which continues the bleak and joyless atmosphere of these films.

Just an idea.

Who says he won't be involved in bringing them together after Batman and Diana find them?

 

[DerekLake]

He's RIGHT.

In a real world, you cannot justify the existence of the Justice League if Superman exists.

If Superman exists, yeah, he's the heavy hitter. He's the one in charge and there isn't really a reason for the League because Superman can stop any threat on his own. A League of heroes, comprised of less powerful heroes, is just superfluous.

In Man Of Steel, he stopped what is basically an army of Supermen when he takes down a group of Kryptonians. He does this without the help of other heroes and on his own.

If you don't show that Superman is vulnerable, that he can be beaten or even killed -- what real threat is there?

You have to introduce a threat that takes more than Superman to bring down -- and that's what Doomsday was. Even if you argue that it could have been Wonder Woman to drive the spear in, and that Superman would have been able to live -- you NEED Superman to die. You need to show that he can be in real peril.

Otherwise, if someone like Darkseid comes along, it would just be: Oh, give Superman enough time. He might get beat up, but he'll win for sure. He can't be killed. It's a foregone conclusion that he'll win eventually.

There would be no stakes.

Killing Superman gives the coming battle with Darkseid stakes. He can die. He can lose. And if we see that Superman can ultimately return, we will at least see that he can be taken out of the equation long enough for the threat to destroy the world and kill the more vulnerable Justice League members.

This was the right decision.

-R

UM, no, he can't stop every threat on his own. Did he stop the Kryptonians on his own? No. Did he stop Doomsday on his own? No. Would he be able to stop Darkseid on his own? No.

But that's not really the point here. Snyder said that Superman was a problem because he would be the leader of the Justice League. Why is that a problem?

The Justice League does not exist to make up for Superman's absence. The Justice League exists to defend the world and uphold justice.

 

[Motown Marvel]

I don't think that your take is invalid or wouldn't work.

But you really can't say that Superman giving his life to stop an unstoppable threat is melodramatic. Really? It was inspiring and heroic. It was Superman going from: "It meant something on my world. My world doesn't exist anymore." To: THIS is his world. LOIS is his world. And it's a world he is willing to die to protect.

It's selfless. It's heroic. It's Superman.

Why can we not have it both ways?

- Superman sacrifices himself in an ultimate act of heroism.
- Batman gathers up the remaining metahumans to band together and essentially re-creaete Superman in the aggregate. (Wonder Woman: Super strength. Flash: Super speed, so on)
- Still, this group (Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Cyborg and Aquaman) is not enough.
- Superman returns either to life or to his true form at a point in the film and completes the team, inspiring and rallying the heroes and pushing them to win the fight.

Cavill has stated in interviews that the "leader of the Justice League" is a debate that is waged between Batman and Superman throughout the film. Just because Batman is the one who rounds them up -- doesn't mean that he's the one who "leads" them.

-R

I can say it was melodramatic because it was a completely unnecessary action which only existed for the sake of causing drama, which makes it unjustified. Superman could of easily thrown the spear, there was no reason for him to go on a suicide run. So his death just came off as stupid. Which by that point wasn't surprising considering the consistency at which superman acted stupidly in the film.

 

[Primal Slayer]

They WANT general audiences scratching their heads. Just as Marvel did over "What's the hammer in the desert?" and "what's that cube"

Those were VERY minor to those overall movies. The entire movie didn't make sense to a lot of people.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Who says he won't be involved in bringing them together after Batman and Diana find them?

Between how the film ended and Snyder's comments on the situation, it doesn't seem to be his intention. But, yes, it's entirely possible that can happen, and it'd be very nice. It's how it should be, in fact. So I hope it does.

 

[Mr. Wayne]

I don't think that your take is invalid or wouldn't work.

But you really can't say that Superman giving his life to stop an unstoppable threat is melodramatic. Really? It was inspiring and heroic. It was Superman going from: "It meant something on my world. My world doesn't exist anymore." To: THIS is his world. LOIS is his world. And it's a world he is willing to die to protect.

It's selfless. It's heroic. It's Superman.

Why can we not have it both ways?

- Superman sacrifices himself in an ultimate act of heroism.
- Batman gathers up the remaining metahumans to band together and essentially re-creaete Superman in the aggregate. (Wonder Woman: Super strength. Flash: Super speed, so on)
- Still, this group (Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Cyborg and Aquaman) is not enough.
- Superman returns either to life or to his true form at a point in the film and completes the team, inspiring and rallying the heroes and pushing them to win the fight.

Cavill has stated in interviews that the "leader of the Justice League" is a debate that is waged between Batman and Superman throughout the film. Just because Batman is the one who rounds them up -- doesn't mean that he's the one who "leads" them.

-R

I don't think the Cavill was actually referring to Batman and Superman fighting in JL when he said there was a debate. I think he was referring to us, the fans and our debates on who leads the team. He is after all, one of us and familiar with that debate. Kimmel then said "Oh these 2 can't stop fighting" and rather than correct him Cavill just went along with the joke but I sincerely doubt he's going to come back to life and then the 2 of them are going to get into another pissing match about who should lead. I think that given the fact that Batman assembles the team he will likely be the tactical leader. He'll put up the money for their headquarters, he'll coordinate attacks and do the bulk of the investigative work. Superman will be the heavy hitter. He'll inspire the others. Don't discount Wonder Woman either. I don't think that lady as portrayed by Gal is going to be "led" by anyone ever. Batman will be the coach with WW and Supes as the star players and the rest playing supporting roles.

 

[The Guard]

Those were VERY minor to those overall movies. The entire movie didn't make sense to a lot of people.

Which is sad, because it's not that complicated. Choppy editing doesn't change the content.

 

[Robin91939]

I don't think the Cavill was actually referring to Batman and Superman fighting in JL when he said there was a debate. I think he was referring to us, the fans and our debates on who leads the team. He is after all, one of us and familiar with that debate. Kimmel then said "Oh these 2 can't stop fighting" and rather than correct him Cavill just went along with the joke but I sincerely doubt he's going to come back to life and then the 2 of them are going to get into another pissing match about who should lead. I think that given the fact that Batman assembles the team he will likely be the tactical leader. He'll put up the money for their headquarters, he'll coordinate attacks and do the bulk of the investigative work. Superman will be the heavy hitter. He'll inspire the others. Don't discount Wonder Woman either. I don't think that lady as portrayed by Gal is going to be "led" by anyone ever. Batman will be the coach with WW and Supes as the star players and the rest playing supporting roles.

I literally said that it is a debate between the characters. Not a fight.

"There's pretty much an argument between him and Batman as to who is the leader."

And he's read the script. Clearly when Superman returns to form/life he will pursue leadership of the Justice League.

There is definitely a chance that Batman will want to run the team a certain way -- which is well within Batman's character. He always has suspicions about how to moderate the power of the Justice League and how interventionist they should be.

-R

 

[Kommander]

Sorry, but I can't accept Eisenberg as Lex Luthor. Sure, you could say it's an entirely different interpretation of Lex, but I would expect a so-called geek like Snyder to stay faithful to the "untouchable CEO/intimidating presence" vibe that Lex should be. If you're going to have a new interpretation of a well-known archvillain, you better make it convincing, and Eisenberg's performance didn't convince me at all, no matter how hard I tried to make sense of it. He just came off as an unhinged brat who likes to play with his toys with no regard for the consequences.

 

[The Guard]

Batman and Superman vying for control of the League makes sense, because they will have different ideologies. It's all going to relate to the messages about interfering without mankinds consent and how to relate to the rest of the world.

 

[Rapunzel]

Between how the film ended and Snyder's comments on the situation, it doesn't seem to be his intention. But, yes, it's entirely possible that can happen, and it'd be very nice. It's how it should be, in fact. So I hope it does.

Here's a thought:

Batman brings the JL together, but Superman KEEPS them together. Bats is the idea man, bu Supes is the glue.

 

[jokesonm3]

3 years in development and nobody from the cast & crew or even Warner Bros for that matter told Snyder that the editing and pacing were god awful.

 

[Flint Marko]

I understand the movie just fine, and that's precisely why I'm able to say I dislike it.

Thank you. BvS in no way is a difficult movie to understand, it isn't particularly complex or nuanced. It's a movie with way too many ideas and no real bearing on how to execute most of them. It's incoherency may be mistaken by complexity for some, but to say that one "fears for the species" because people "aren't getting" BvS is one of the funniest thing I've read on this site.

 

[The Guard]

And yet people keep asking "where was that?" About simple story points and things characters actually say.

 

[Saint]

Thank you. BvS in no way is a difficult movie to understand, it isn't particularly complex or nuanced.

I believe the film does have nuance, but it just doesn't just isn't effective in it's execution and falls short of saying something meaningful about the ideas it's playing with.