BvS The Unabashed SPOILER Thread. ENTER AT OWN RISK. - Part 5

[Zur-en-Arrh]

i still have to see the movie, but since i'm spoiled, i don't think you guys need to worry about superman being evil in the next film. superman is being taken on the classic hero's journey here, didn't they even weave in a passage of campbell into the new suit? it's pretty evident from the ending he's going to be a figure of extreme hope, the resurrected god in justice league. id' be willing to bet his suit will even be a brighter blue and he'll smile at least seven times in the movie, even showing molars.

 

[titansupes]

Yep. It felt so unearned because Doomsday wasn't applied properly at all. He's just like Abomination. A Hulk like thing to be disposed of as quickly as possible. One and done. Never mind that the build up to DOS in the comics was heard breaking because as Doomsday decimated every JL member, loads of other heroes and even some villains, we knew Superman was going to die. Over a course of several months. We knew it, and we were waiting for it. That final match. The big sacrifice. You were emotionally invested. Here it takes all of 15 minutes, with a hero we barely even know. He's not even the protector of humanity yet.

Agreed. I'm surprised DD didn't look more like his comic self, since it seems right up Snyder's alley, and while I enjoyed the fight and the sacrifice, it was too short and not as epic in terms of build up and global threat level as it should have been.

 

[titansupes]

Yep. It felt so unearned because Doomsday wasn't applied properly at all. He's just like Abomination. A Hulk like thing to be disposed of as quickly as possible. One and done. Never mind that the build up to DOS in the comics was heard breaking because as Doomsday decimated every JL member, loads of other heroes and even some villains, we knew Superman was going to die. Over a course of several months. We knew it, and we were waiting for it. That final match. The big sacrifice. You were emotionally invested. Here it takes all of 15 minutes, with a hero we barely even know. He's not even the protector of humanity yet.

Agreed. I'm surprised DD didn't look more like his comic self, since it seems right up Snyder's alley, and while I really enjoyed the fight and the sacrifice, it was too short and not as epic in terms of build up and global threat level as it should have been.

 

[matt47]

Isn't it barely different? Like a couple of different lines on his belt area? We all have our obsessions

That's exactly why it's a crazy obsession!

It's just, every change they did made the suit worse imo. Including Cavill beefing up even more.

 

[TheTarkKnight]

I just saw the movie last night and I enjoyed it very much. My takeaways:

1. As much as I enjoy dark and gritty, I think the movie was a little bit too dark and gritty for GA taste.

2. Although I enjoy the bogeyman/creature-of-the-night type Batman characterization, and the first scene with Batman was phenomenal IMO, his use firing and killing was unnecessary and takes away from the character. That is one Liberty I did not enjoy and cannot tolerate in this character. Even if Snyder says that that's how it appeared in the TDK series, the mutant's leader was making fun of Batman for using rubber bullets. True, he did not kill anyone directly, but did by proxy.

3. The Knightmare sequence comes out of nowhere. No transition, nothing! My wife was like "what happened, how did he get from the cave to the desert dressed like that?" So I had to explain, and I only could because I was expecting it. Otherwise you're lost. Also I couldn't understand anything the Flash said. I also didn't like how Ezra Miller looked with his facial it and all. Personal preference.

4. The one CGI oops in that Doomsday-Supes scene. Was Matrix Reloaded/Neo against Smiths bad. Luckily the scene was no more than two seconds so I can let it go.

5. They killed Mercy! They should've kept her around for solo Supes movies.

6. I took the last Luthor scene as Throught the ships knowledge he is aware of Darkseid and he is coming. Did I get that right?

7. Super dying, although expected, was still shocking when it happened. But I didn't mind. How that ties into JL I can't tell yet.

8. I did feel sorry for Superman for being thrown and punched around so much. But he's Superman, so even after everything he was still hopeful and was trying to do the right thing.

9. If I had an 8 year old, I am not sure if I would take him/her to this movie. It's not a happy movie.

10. I thought Lex was fine, but I would've expected a more mature character. He played the mad scientist well, but he was never the calm smart businessman type that Lex is in TAS. That's the version I like. However, Eisenberg played his part. I guess he just didn't make the impact that I was expecting in that character.

Edit adding #11. I loved Wonder Woman. She was a mystery. Still a mystery after everything that happened. I perhaps missed the part why she was at Lex's party. Other than that, I loved how she was almost enjoying fighting DD too much

 

[Tim_Riggins]

Ezra is not gonna have the facial hair for Justice League it seems, he's completely clean shaven now with a haircut. For that sequence, loved it, did feel at first like it came out of nowhere, but it is a nightmare sequence, and it kinda felt like a comic book panel in a way.

Maybe there's more context for it in the ultimate cut.

 

[Rapunzel]

I wonder if Darkseid will actually be the villain in JL or JL2. If it wasn't for the Omega symbol and parademons in the knightmare, I'd have been convinced Lex was hinting at a Kryptonian threat like Brainiac.

 

[TheTarkKnight]

Supes is clearly powerless. He is almost accepting death.

Granted, I still think that he should of at least murmured "mom" or something. But I think it just shows you Supes is thinking of others before himself. He wanted to save his mom so he said her name. I think it worked.

That and I really like the Martha connection between Clark and Bruce. It was powerful--- though we really didn't need to flashback to a chunk of the opening sequence again. Maybe just a two-shot between Thomas and Martha.

Yo. Let me recut the movie. I swear there's a good movie in there somewhere.

I agree. I think when Supes called out Martha, he inadvertently triggered something with Bruce. The first thing was the connection to his mother, and I think number two is -and especially after Lois said it was his mother's name- the fact that Supes is also human but not just some superpowered alien. I liked that connection. Could it have been better? Sure! But I have no issues with this.

 

[Flint Marko]

Superman's old suit did look better. The muscle padding didn't look convincing or cool.

So some of the pros I had for this movie because I'm not going to spend all my time pooping on it:

- Ben Affleck as Batman was pretty great. That's the Batman I've been wanting to see for years. Even though I love the Nolan trilogy, Affleck could potentially be my favorite Batman just for tickling my fanboy spots in the right places. I think the movie could have spent maybe a little more time developing him as a character but overall I'm pleased.

- There were a few jokes that I actually felt were really well-timed and executed. Not a lot of humor in this one but when it worked, it worked.

- I think the basic story (Lex pits Batman and Superman against each other, is secretly keeping tabs on meta humans, Wonder Woman shows up to intervene and help them fight Doomsay, etc) was a good, if unoriginal, story that was unfortunately over-complicated. Still, I found myself enjoying the premise.

- Both the JL cameos were great. The Flash coming to speak to Bruce Wayne was kind of cool, but Jason Momoa as Aquaman looks amazing. I want to see that movie NOW. Cyborg's cameo was off but I won't hold it against the movie because those other two cameos were pretty great.

- I did enjoy Wonder Woman and the sense of mystery around her was appreciated but to say she "steals the show" is overstating things.

As for the negatives I could talk about the frenetic pace, thinly-written characters, and terrible dialogue, but there's really one giant cloud looming over this movie that makes me really dislike it. I said this in the review thread but the final nail in the coffin for this movie was Superman's death. If it wasn't for that I maybe could have shrugged the majority of the the film's problems off but that was what took it over the edge. Not only is Superman still boring and woefully under-developed, it was meaningless given that the entire film is a two hour set up for the Justice League.

RE: Martha

It's pretty obvious that Clark is trying to tell Batman to "save Martha Kent".

You even hear him get the "Ke-" out before Batman puts his foot on his throat.

It could have been better executed (eg "Kill me but please save Martha Ke-") but oh well.

I might have to watch for this on my second viewing but it stuck out to me that there was no reason Superman couldn't have shared this information with Batman earlier. Wasting time fighting for several minutes and waiting to tell him about his mom until the last moment was real convenient.

 

[Rapunzel]

Ezra is not gonna have the facial hair for Justice League it seems, he's completely clean shaven now with a haircut. For that sequence, loved it, did feel at first like it came out of nowhere, but it is a nightmare sequence, and it kinda felt like a comic book panel in a way.

Maybe there's more context for it in the ultimate cut.

I think there HAS to be more context for everything in the film in the Ultimate Cut.

Like Clark investigating the Batman at the Gotham PD, which is a scene we know they shot..that will do wonders for enhancing Superman's feelings.

A scene where Bruce discusses the knightmare/flash thing with Alfred or something would go a long way to clarifying the scene.

 

[Rapunzel]

Flint- Supes does try to explain things at first to Bats... even calls him Bruce. But Bats pulls those traps on him and it turns into a fight.

 

[The Guard]

But it's not interesting. There's nothing about two people who speak literally twice before their brawl that's of any value. No build up means there's no investment in the confrontation.

The interesting thing is their point of view. Their feelings about each other speak to the fears others have about them and flesh out those ideas.

 

[Mjölnir]

I might have to watch for this on my second viewing but it stuck out to me that there was no reason Superman couldn't have shared this information with Batman earlier. Wasting time fighting for several minutes and waiting to tell him about his mom until the last moment was real convenient.

You're right, the fight had no reason to happen since it was so easily avoidable. And if there was one thing this long movie needed to build up it was that.

Flint- Supes does try to explain things at first to Bats... even calls him Bruce. But Bats pulls those traps on him and it turns into a fight.

There was no proper reason for Superman to turn it into a fight at that point. Batman is like an ant to him in a fight so since it's no threat he could have tried to talk to him again when he's pushed him over. Or just tie him up and force him to listen. But instead he just goes crazy on a human and runs him through an apartment building, which certainly isn't sure not to severely injure or kill Batman.

 

[TheTarkKnight]

Flint- Supes does try to explain things at first to Bats... even calls him Bruce. But Bats pulls those traps on him and it turns into a fight.

I forgot to mention this. How does Supes know its Bruce under the cowl? It was never explained or hinted that he knew Batman's identity, then suddenly "Bruce". Didn't buy it.

 

[The Guard]

Batman beating Superman so easily was sort of weak. Even in the comic he needs Ollie to help him out.

It made Superman look like a punk in his own movie. But I guess I expected no less from a Frank Miller fanboy.

Superman held his own. And ultimately he won that conflict. Morally.

 

[Mjölnir]

I forgot to mention this. How does Supes know its Bruce under the cowl? It was never explained or hinted that he knew Batman's identity, then suddenly "Bruce". Didn't buy it.

Probably the thing that Superman didn't bother using when his father was about to die - his x-ray vision.

 

[Mjölnir]

Superman held his own. And ultimately he won that conflict. Morally.

Not really. Superman turned it into a fight, with a human, when he didn't need to.

 

[The Guard]

Anyone else bothered by how quickly Superman solved the problem of Doomsday by flying him into space?

And then how quickly the Dept of Defense ruins it by nuking both? Why not just let them fight in space? See how that pans out first before using the nuke.

That thing that thousands of people whined about him not doing with Zod?

He was able to do that because Doomsday hadn't yet grown stronger.

This is their third encounter with super powered alien combatants in a populated area. I think it might have been the right call in a heightened sense. They could not afford another Black Zero incident.

 

[The Guard]

I feel like this got the cut.

A shame because it was a good plotline with a great performance from Holly Hunter, who somehow was one of the standouts of the film in a relatively minor role.

I loved her in her scene in Luthor's place, but feel like the movie didn't adequately show the significance behind her decisions. She should have been the indicator of public mood towards Superman in a more apparent way.

How much more apparent can it get? She was holding a hearing, on TV, etc...

 

[The Guard]

Not really. Superman turned it into a fight, with a human, when he didn't need to.

Batman wasn't, as the film shows, just going to stop. Superman tried to appeal to him.
He was trying to stop Batman. That was Kryptonite weakened Superman. It was about survival. He needed Batman to stop.

 

[The Guard]

I'm feeling a Crisis on Two Earths thing coming with Justice League...

Was that thing Flash was in a suit of his, or some kind of containment/torture suit? He seemed really desperate.

 

[Rapunzel]

I thought Supes tossed Bats up on top of the building to get away from the traps?? So he could try talking to him again? He says stay down, and I expected he would have started to try and explain about Martha again, but then the Kryptonite came out.

 

[Mjölnir]

Batman wasn't, as the film shows, just going to stop. Superman tried to appeal to him.
He was trying to stop Batman. That was Kryptonite weakened Superman. It was about survival. He needed Batman to stop.

Batman didn't use Kryptonite until Superman had already turned into a fight. He ran a human through an apartment building. That's really fighting someone as that's not a given that he'll survive. That's not a moral high ground.

Superman could have destroyed his toys like he did at the start, remain in air and just kept talking. He could have just held Batman in place and forced him to listen since Batman can do nothing against that strength. He could have kept just pushing him over and talked to him. All these were 100% viable from the view Superman had (that Batman was no threat whatsoever).

We also know in hindsight that as soon as Superman managed to get out a couple of sentences Batman would stop at the magic word, so even from a story perspective it would have worked.

 

[TheTarkKnight]

It's coming back to me now. How did Lex know Clark Kent is Superman? I did not understand this at all. All of a sudden Batman is Bruce, Supes is Clark Jo.

 

[Flint Marko]

I had the same question. Where'd that come from? By the next movie once Clark/Superman comes back everyone should be able to piece two and two together.

Flint- Supes does try to explain things at first to Bats... even calls him Bruce. But Bats pulls those traps on him and it turns into a fight.

I just remember thinking, "dude, TELL HIM what's going on and you can wrap this up in a minute or two. Your mom is going to die."
I'm going to see it again to check if I still feel that way or if I'm being nitpicky.