BvS The Unabashed SPOILER Thread. ENTER AT OWN RISK. - Part 5

Status
Not open for further replies.
That's not only stupid, nonsensical, and a misutilization of the character, but it would also be completely inconsistent with the film itself. At Lex's party, Clark's super hearing picks up Alfred's transmissions to Bruce. He wasn't trying to do that, nor did it require him to specifically focus his powers to do so, nor was he in some "heightened emotional state". Yet despite all the commotion of the party, Clark's super hearing picked it up. You don't get to change the rules of the universe from scene to scene simply to accommodate the plot. That's bad writing. Which is the only consistent thing in the movie.

Actually he was focussing on Bruce and that's why he was able to pick it up. It was completely consistent with the way his hearing and sight have been portrayed across both movies.
 
Hmm, the courtroom scene. Yah, its not like Supermans focus was elsewhere, was it? I mean what with the inner turmoil, the testimony of the woman, the grilling by the senator - just how did he miss a hidden bomb that had been masked from his super-senses?
Oh, superman had a lot on his mind? He just, like, can't even. Not today. Are you kidding me?

Again, so much bad stuff happens in the film simply because superman is bad at being superman.
 
His super smelling would also sense the unique chemical compounds that make up explosives.

No, superman is not responsible for everyone. He's not expected to be a god, so let's not get hyperbolic in your defense. But if you are trying to tell me we are dealing with a superman whose senses can't pick up the presence of a bomb in the room, then that is a weak as hell excuse for a superman who sucks at using his powers.

Was super smelling ever established in this universe?

I hope not. That's such a corny power for Supes :oldrazz:
 
Actually he was focussing on Bruce and that's why he was able to pick it up. It was completely consistent with the way his hearing and sight have been portrayed across both movies.
Oh god. I seriously cannot take anymore the lame ass excuses people are concocting to defend how awful superman was portrayed in the movie.
 
Just got back from the film for the second time. I stand by my 8.5/10. It's a very good film.

I think a lot of the problems some people have with it, is really just not paying attention. I've heard people on here say things like, "The Parademons looked cool. The one that crashes out of Martha Wayne's grave was terrifying." This is a small example, but that was not a Parademon (those were in the Knightmare sequence only) this was a giant bat. If these are details fans are missing, I don't know what to say other than pay a little better attention. I've heard reviewers complain about "a dirty bomb plot that goes no where." SERIOUSLY? Just watch the film.


As for what people think was convoluted or didn't add up, let's go point-by-point:

Bruce Wayne/Batman's motivations:
He is present for the Black Zero event in Metropolis. He saves who he can and sees the damage that this new era of Gods can do. He is paranoid and afraid of what this means for the human race.

Cut to 18 months later and he has been tracking a weapon, a mineral, that can kill a Kryptonian. He is tracking the Russians (who are smuggling the weapon). He lies to Alfred and tells him that he is tracking a dirty bomb because he knows Alfred will not agree with him starting a pre-emptive war with Superman.

Bruce is blinded by paranoia of an enemy he knows the world would not be able to defeat. An enemy that has struck him at his core when it killed hundreds of his employees during the Black Zero event. He is pushed even further when he sees the effect that the event had on one of his workers, Wallace Keefe. The letters scribbled on the survivor's checks that Keefe has been sending back to Wayne Enterprises goad Wayne on more (Wayne doesn't know that these checks have actually been intercepted by Luthor and it is Lex who is returning them to Wayne Enterprises with the hateful messages). The incident at the Capitol is the final straw. It doesn't matter to Bruce if Superman caused the explosion. Because in any event, he did cause it. He caused Keefe's injuries and drove him to the point of becoming a martyr. And he is SUPERMAN and was there and did nothing to stop it.

Bruce clones Anatoli Knyazev/KGBeast/the lead Russian merc's phone and discovers that the Russians are in constant communication with Lex Luthor. After breaking into Luthor's server room while a guest at a party, Bruce gets all the information that Lex has on metahumans as well as "Kryptonite" and its uses.

He uses this information to create weapons (a spear and gas grenades) to take out Superman.

Superman issues Batman a warning not to go to the bat-signal if it is ever lit again. So to summon Superman, Batman lights the bat-signal and waits for Superman to arrive.


Lex Luthor's motivations/plan:
Lex Luthor hates Superman. This isn't just because in every iteration Lex hates Superman. It's because Lex is, in this film, one of (if not) the smartest person in the world. And as he points out, his knowledge should be true power. Power that is greater than someone like Superman's. Lex also fears the power of the Man of Steel and what he could do the world if he were to ever go rogue. Lex believes that it should be a MAN who is the savior of mankind, not an alien. His fears and hatred of all things inhuman has led to him studying and tracking all possible people with powers. He believes that all of our modern myths are based on actual people with incredible power: the "metahuman thesis." He looks for contingencies to take each possible metahuman out -- starting with Superman.

He knows about Batman. Batman has been around for 20 years and has no doubt made a reputation for being the most capable man (physically) in the world. Someone who could dispose of Superman if given the proper motivation and tools.

So Lex hammers home the motivation for Bruce. He sends him the letters from Wallace Keefe. He sets in motion the events in Africa to frame Superman and sully his reputation and causes the explosion at the Capitol. Lex provides the tool by allowing Batman to steal the Kryptonite (there is a smirk on his face as he sees the batarang in the glass case where the Kryptonite should be).

He kidnaps Martha Kent to use as leverage on Superman and kidnaps Lois Lane to bring Superman to him.

His plan is simple: Expose Superman as a fraud, or have him killed.

Option A: Superman flies to Gotham and kills the Batman. He brings Batman's head to Luthor at the site of the crashed alien ship where there are hundreds of network news cameras and Luthor can show the world that Superman is the killer everyone thought he is and ruin his reputation for good ...

... or ...

Option B: Batman uses the hate for Superman that Luthor has fueled and the weapons that Luthor has essentially supplied him with (Lex is the one who found and smuggled the Kryptonite from another hemisphere) to kill Superman. The end. Clean and simple.

Either option leaves Superman out of Luthor's way. Broken or dead. Those are Superman's two options as he flies to Gotham to confront Batman.


Doomsday:
Doomsday is Luthor's fail safe. He is what happens if Superman somehow escaped his catch 22 and was able to save Martha without killing Batman.

Lex believes that since Doomsday is "blood of my blood" that he can control him. His hubris is his downfall. As he says to Zod's corpse as he drips his blood onto his face, "Like Icarus you flew too close to the sun." This is exactly what Lex ultimately does. He believes that he can create a God to destroy Superman and that he will be able to control his creation. He is wrong. Very wrong.


Knightmare:
This was one of two things.

Option A: It was a dream that Bruce has based on his own paranoias.

Option B: It was a hard flash forward into an actual future in which Lois is dead or somehow out of the picture, and Superman has become a tyrant and blames Batman for her fate. Backed and corrupted by Darkseid, Superman rules over parts of the planet with his own Parademon-assisted army of followers.

Flash appears to tell Bruce that he needs to protect Lois and that Bruce was right about Superman all along. That Superman could destroy the world if he wanted to and that Bruce needs to find the other metahumans to stop the coming apocalypse. Of course, Bruce has no idea what Flash is talking about because Flash arrived too far into the past. Still, his appearance shakes Bruce and convinces him to find the other metahumans.

It has to be Option B, because Option A relies on Bruce having precognitive skills and premonitions that can see the actual future.


These issues seem to be some of people's biggest. All the information is presented in the film. They really aren't issues.

The only real leaps you need to make are how Lex Luthor knew that Bruce Wayne and Batman were the same person and that Clark Kent is Superman.

But when you consider that he is a driven madman with limitless resources, he could have poured all of them into discovering these truths prior to the film's start.

-R
 
Oh, superman had a lot on his mind? He just, like, can't even. Not today. Are you kidding me?

Again, so much bad stuff happens in the film simply because superman is bad at being superman.

The perfect superhero for this generation
 
Was super smelling ever established in this universe?

I hope not. That's such a corny power for Supes :oldrazz:

Superman has always had super senses. All five of them. Whether or not they've been utilized in these films is another thing. But it's completely within the character.
 
Came back from watching it, and it felt wrong in my opinion. Almost all the epic scenes were in trailers. I can down the list as the reasons why this will sink faster as the days go by. The only credible character is/was Wonder Woman. Honorable mention goes to Alfred the Butler, and Batman was okay...he wasn't great. Wonder Woman's scenes were good stuff. I lost interest in the first 2 acts...the final was pretty good, but not great. Overall I give it a meager 5 out of 10.....I was hoping it would be better with better scenes between Batman and Superman. The whole plot thing was horrible. Lex was awful......and doomsday....just as worse. There was ZERO memorable moments that would make me want to see this again. The other meta human cameos? Well.....boring to say the least. Not interested in seeing this Flash.....Just a down day because I was hoping it would been way better.
 
Oh, superman had a lot on his mind? He just, like, can't even. Not today. Are you kidding me?

Again, so much bad stuff happens in the film simply because superman is bad at being superman.

This may shock you, but Superman is not supposed to be infallible. He's not omnipotent, he makes errors, and yes, if his focus is elsewhere it is plausable that he could miss something. Especially something that's been deliberately masked from him.
 
How can they make Lex relevant in the DC movie U? He was not a convincing Lex in my book....came off more like a Riddler to me
Clark Kent is dead? How can they resurrect him and superman at the same time?
Will superman just be superman full time now?
 
This may shock you, but Superman is not supposed to be infallible. He's not omnipotent, he makes errors, and yes, if his focus is elsewhere it is plausable that he could miss something. Especially something that's been deliberately masked from him.

Again, a superman who is incapable of sensing a BOMB in the same room as him is an incapable, poor excuse for a superman. This does not require a god. A superman would suffice. But there is no superman present in the film.
 
The Jimmy Olson thing wouldn't be as bad if Superman and Batman actually acted like themselves. But no, it's just more fuel to the fire. People defend this by saying it was made for the fans, but that's clearly not the case.

Oh yeah, you must be right and all the other online reviewers who like this Batman so much are so wrong.
 
Superman has always had super senses. All five of them. Whether or not they've been utilized in these films is another thing. But it's completely within the character.

We've never seen supersmell in this universe. There's no reason to assume he has that capability. In fact, he specifically tells Lois "I wasn't looking.", as if that was the only sense that would have caught the bomb. Meaning supersmell cannot exist, otherwise, he's have said "I didn't see it or smell it."
 
How can they make Lex relevant in the DC movie U? He was not a convincing Lex in my book....came off more like a Riddler to me
Clark Kent is dead? How can they resurrect him and superman at the same time?
Will superman just be superman full time now?

I'm guessing he'll just be Superman now.
 
That sucks. According to some on here, he's not even much of that.
 
Oh god. I seriously cannot take anymore the lame ass excuses people are concocting to defend how awful superman was portrayed in the movie.

I'm with you. These excuses don't even come from the internal logic of the writing and the film itself, it comes from the people who project their own ideas onto it.
 
Thinking about this more and more it really hits home to me that this story about someone hating Superman for what happened in MoS needed to be about Lex Luthor not Batman. If Lex Luthor is the one obsessed with bringing down Superman then this movie plays out a lot better in my mind, but it would mean getting rid of both Batman and Wonder Woman.
 
We've never seen supersmell in this universe. There's no reason to assume he has that capability. In fact, he specifically tells Lois "I wasn't looking.", as if that was the only sense that would have caught the bomb. Meaning supersmell cannot exist, otherwise, he's have said "I didn't see it or smell it."

This "I wasn't looking" b.s. Is exactly that, b.s.. It is a poor excuse for a poorly written portrayal of superman in a poor attempt to create drama which instead comes off as hollow. If he's not willing to act like superman, then he should stop being superman. Because his failure to act like superman, and use his powers accordingly, is resulting in people being killed. This isn't an expectation of him to be like a god. This isn't an expectation of him to save everyone. This isn't an expectation for him to be perfect. This is an expectation for him to be superman.
 
I'm guessing he'll just be Superman now.

Thor is Thor full-time and not Donald Blake ...

They can create a way to bring Clark back, perhaps. But they might not.

I'm sure that they didn't write themselves into this corner without a plane to get out of it. They wrote this and the script for Justice League is already complete and going in front of camera in a few weeks -- I'm sure they will address this issue.

-R
 
Oh yeah, you must be right and all the other online reviewers who like this Batman so much are so wrong.

How is them not acting like their comic book selves, and reviewers liking them, mutually exclusive?

Also, doesn't your argument mean that all the reviewers that thought the movie was rotten are right in that too?
 
Oh god. I seriously cannot take anymore the lame ass excuses people are concocting to defend how awful superman was portrayed in the movie.

How the **** is that lame ass? I cannot take seriously people like yourself who when something is adquately explained still refuse to accept it! :whatever:

At a party where there is nothing but indistinct chatter - where Clark has nothing else to concentrate on, picking up the chatter on Bruce's earpiece probably stuck out like a sore thumb... once he's caught the conversation he's zoned in on it.
 
Just got back from the film for the second time. I stand by my 8.5/10. It's a very good film.

I think a lot of the problems some people have with it, is really just not paying attention. I've heard people on here say things like, "The Parademons looked cool. The one that crashes out of Martha Wayne's grave was terrifying." This is a small example, but that was not a Parademon (those were in the Knightmare sequence only) this was a giant bat. If these are details fans are missing, I don't know what to say other than pay a little better attention. I've heard reviewers complain about "a dirty bomb plot that goes no where." SERIOUSLY? Just watch the film.


As for what people think was convoluted or didn't add up, let's go point-by-point:

Bruce Wayne/Batman's motivations:
He is present for the Black Zero event in Metropolis. He saves who he can and sees the damage that this new era of Gods can do. He is paranoid and afraid of what this means for the human race.

Cut to 18 months later and he has been tracking a weapon, a mineral, that can kill a Kryptonian. He is tracking the Russians (who are smuggling the weapon). He lies to Alfred and tells him that he is tracking a dirty bomb because he knows Alfred will not agree with him starting a pre-emptive war with Superman.

Bruce is blinded by paranoia of an enemy he knows the world would not be able to defeat. An enemy that has struck him at his core when it killed hundreds of his employees during the Black Zero event. He is pushed even further when he sees the effect that the event had on one of his workers, Wallace Keefe. The letters scribbled on the survivor's checks that Keefe has been sending back to Wayne Enterprises goad Wayne on more (Wayne doesn't know that these checks have actually been intercepted by Luthor and it is Lex who is returning them to Wayne Enterprises with the hateful messages). The incident at the Capitol is the final straw. It doesn't matter to Bruce if Superman caused the explosion. Because in any event, he did cause it. He caused Keefe's injuries and drove him to the point of becoming a martyr. And he is SUPERMAN and was there and did nothing to stop it.

Bruce clones Anatoli Knyazev/KGBeast/the lead Russian merc's phone and discovers that the Russians are in constant communication with Lex Luthor. After breaking into Luthor's server room while a guest at a party, Bruce gets all the information that Lex has on metahumans as well as "Kryptonite" and its uses.

He uses this information to create weapons (a spear and gas grenades) to take out Superman.

Superman issues Batman a warning not to go to the bat-signal if it is ever lit again. So to summon Superman, Batman lights the bat-signal and waits for Superman to arrive.


Lex Luthor's motivations/plan:
Lex Luthor hates Superman. This isn't just because in every iteration Lex hates Superman. It's because Lex is, in this film, one of (if not) the smartest person in the world. And as he points out, his knowledge should be true power. Power that is greater than someone like Superman's. Lex also fears the power of the Man of Steel and what he could do the world if he were to ever go rogue. Lex believes that it should be a MAN who is the savior of mankind, not an alien. His fears and hatred of all things inhuman has led to him studying and tracking all possible people with powers. He believes that all of our modern myths are based on actual people with incredible power: the "metahuman thesis." He looks for contingencies to take each possible metahuman out -- starting with Superman.

He knows about Batman. Batman has been around for 20 years and has no doubt made a reputation for being the most capable man (physically) in the world. Someone who could dispose of Superman if given the proper motivation and tools.

So Lex hammers home the motivation for Bruce. He sends him the letters from Wallace Keefe. He sets in motion the events in Africa to frame Superman and sully his reputation and causes the explosion at the Capitol. Lex provides the tool by allowing Batman to steal the Kryptonite (there is a smirk on his face as he sees the batarang in the glass case where the Kryptonite should be).

He kidnaps Martha Kent to use as leverage on Superman and kidnaps Lois Lane to bring Superman to him.

His plan is simple: Expose Superman as a fraud, or have him killed.

Option A: Superman flies to Gotham and kills the Batman. He brings Batman's head to Luthor at the site of the crashed alien ship where there are hundreds of network news cameras and Luthor can show the world that Superman is the killer everyone thought he is and ruin his reputation for good ...

... or ...

Option B: Batman uses the hate for Superman that Luthor has fueled and the weapons that Luthor has essentially supplied him with (Lex is the one who found and smuggled the Kryptonite from another hemisphere) to kill Superman. The end. Clean and simple.

Either option leaves Superman out of Luthor's way. Broken or dead. Those are Superman's two options as he flies to Gotham to confront Batman.


Doomsday:
Doomsday is Luthor's fail safe. He is what happens if Superman somehow escaped his catch 22 and was able to save Martha without killing Batman.

Lex believes that since Doomsday is "blood of my blood" that he can control him. His hubris is his downfall. As he says to Zod's corpse as he drips his blood onto his face, "Like Icarus you flew too close to the sun." This is exactly what Lex ultimately does. He believes that he can create a God to destroy Superman and that he will be able to control his creation. He is wrong. Very wrong.


Knightmare:
This was one of two things.

Option A: It was a dream that Bruce has based on his own paranoias.

Option B: It was a hard flash forward into an actual future in which Lois is dead or somehow out of the picture, and Superman has become a tyrant and blames Batman for her fate. Backed and corrupted by Darkseid, Superman rules over parts of the planet with his own Parademon-assisted army of followers.

Flash appears to tell Bruce that he needs to protect Lois and that Bruce was right about Superman all along. That Superman could destroy the world if he wanted to and that Bruce needs to find the other metahumans to stop the coming apocalypse. Of course, Bruce has no idea what Flash is talking about because Flash arrived too far into the past. Still, his appearance shakes Bruce and convinces him to find the other metahumans.

It has to be Option B, because Option A relies on Bruce having precognitive skills and premonitions that can see the actual future.


These issues seem to be some of people's biggest. All the information is presented in the film. They really aren't issues.

The only real leaps you need to make are how Lex Luthor knew that Bruce Wayne and Batman were the same person and that Clark Kent is Superman.

But when you consider that he is a driven madman with limitless resources, he could have poured all of them into discovering these truths prior to the film's start.

-R

Great write up, glad you enjoyed the film too.
 
How the **** is that lame ass? I cannot take seriously people like yourself who when something is adquately explained still refuse to accept it! :whatever:

At a party where there is nothing but indistinct chatter - where Clark has nothing else to concentrate on, picking up the chatter on Bruce's earpiece probably stuck out like a sore thumb... once he's caught the conversation he's zoned in on it.

Except at that time in the film there was nothing about Bruce for him to be suspicious about which would require him to focus his super senses on him. Does that sound lame to you? Is that excuse not acceptable to you? Good, it should be. Because it's stupid that such an excuse would be necessary. Because the principle point is we are being given a Superman whose senses don't detect a bomb in the same room as him because of the excuses he either had a lot on his mind, or because in these films his powers are so suppressed that they only work when he specifically focuses them, or whatever other contrived bull which has been concocted in this thread is ridiculous and merely services a very lame portrayal of superman.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"