BvS The Unabashed SPOILER Thread. ENTER AT OWN RISK. - Part 5

[TDKR1977]

C) his cells were irradiated with the sun for his whole life, whereas the other kryptonians were only beginning to develop their powers when they were defeated

You're wasting your time. The nitpicking has only just begun...

 

[Sleiek]

He did go Punisher. That is the point of the brand.

The problems with the movie is that his "problems" strike at the core of his being. I think Daredevil Season 2 is a perfect example of what people have a problem with, with Batman. He is dark, brooding and badass. Great. But then we have those scenes where the best of Batman, his integrity and moral compass, are thrown out of the window for cool action.

Batman is the kind of guy that hates guns. Holding one would shake him. And yet he has plenty of them and even uses on in the present tense. Not the Knightmare, but the present tense. He shot a gun. Batman.

I grew up with BTAS, Batman Beyond, JLU, the comics and the movies. The only place he killed was the movies with Burton. And he never did with the zeal or intent he did it here.

I think it is actually rather easy to sum up that when in TDK Bruce says he has "one rule" everyone and their mother knew what he meant. They knew he didn't kill.

I don't believe he went Punisher, I believe Punisher is on another level.

If the killing is such an important core aspect everyone believes it to be.. I would expect everyone hating on Batfleck right now.

 

[Cats]

So....what the eff was up with those nightmare sequences that Bruce had? They made zero sense.

They really did not make that clear at all. I guess its possibly Superman could still go evil... Or maybe it was all solved in BvS....

Agreed. Even the beginning dream sequence with Bruce being lifted into the light by the bats...what the actual %#!$

I'm not sure why people aren't getting the dream sequences. I've you've followed Batman comics, dream sequences and imageries are commonly used to reflect certain significant moments in time, thought processes and possible visions of the future, BvS incorporated all three, and I enjoyed them all, very much. Might be a bit abstract for some, but here are my thoughts -

1. Bats lifting young Bruce into the air:
Remember that this is an older Bruce, not the one from Batman Begins. Suffice to say, the first moment he encountered the bats from the cave was a terrifying moment for the young boy, but he worked through his fears and harnessed it into an undying spirit, and deadset determination. The bats lifting him up is Bruce looking back at that moment, and seeing it as the defining moment of him coming into this new life.

2. Blood seeping from his parents' tomb, and a bat emerging from the casket.
The bat has always been a symbol within Bruce's life which speaks as his inner voice. Psychiatrists might say he's a little mentally unstable because of this, but it's the kind of brokenness of a person that I've come to appreciate in his life. There've been many times in the comics especially when he's severely distressed or lost purpose in his life when he's "spoken" to the ghost of the "bat" while in his most private moments. Of course this bat remains closely tied to his parents' death, as is everything in Bruce's life. And sometimes the bat gives him the motivation to continue, or it lays blame on him for somethings he feels responsible for. In this instance, the bat is enraged about the destruction in Metropolis and demands that Bruce do something about it. Coincidentally, that newspaper clipping Lex sends to him with the words "You let your family die" just enhances that sentiment.

3. Knightmare sequence up to the point where Flash appears.
This actually happens to be an important scene, leading up towards the Justice League, it probably could've been explained more though because I get that majority of people did not understand it, and that includes comic book readers. The thing is that I wouldn't actually call this a nightmare, but it's more of a vision of a possible future given by Flash. That future would likely occur if Batman didn't get into a fight with Superman (like the one in BvS). And like in that episode of JLA where the Justice Lords take stage, something happens to push Superman over the edge (in this case it seems Lois has died, or Darkseid has control over Superman's mind and puts him in this perpetual nightmare state). My guess is in that possible future, Superman doesn't know Batman's identity up to that point, and by then there're no more chances for redemption as he goes right out for the kill. Flash ends that premonition telling Batman that he was right about Superman all along, and to look for "them". This of course propels Batman to get into a fight with Superman where they end up friendly with each other, and Bruce tells Diana that he intends to assemble the other members found on that disc, just as Flash had requested - just for the probable chance that the nightmare he witnessed could come true.

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

Not saying these are problems. But these are things that legit made me go, "WTH" after seeing the movie:

- If Clark is already waking up at the end of the movie, when is the world and the others suppose to know when he is back? I mean, the dirt is already moving. He should be out of the ground in mere moments.

- Why exactly couldn't Wonder Woman use the spear to kill Doomsday? She after all wouldn't be weakened by the Kryptonite, so she wouldn't have to stand there and get stabbed.

- How exactly did Lex adding his DNA result in Doomsday? I get the abomination idea. But human DNA is weaker. So how did it result in a stronger being?

- Who in their right mind thought it was a good idea to interrupt the start of the fight with the JL crap? I was actually shocked. Especially when apparently Lex came up with all there symbosl.

- What exactly did working out do to help Batman defeat Superman? Or did we just need a montage?

- What was the point of the Knightmare scene and why did they show the whole thing in trailers?

- Why didn't Clark tell Batman he needed to save his "mother". Why did he specifically say her name first? It has no context whatsoever.

- Why did Superman push Batman? He wanted his help, so why not just talk to him, or simply stop Batman as soon as he got there so they could talk? Why attack him?

- What in the hell was the point of Lex's plan? The best case scenario is he ended up dead.

- Who signed off on the WWI Diana picture?

Because **** logic. Logic is for Marvel films. Snyder films are too deep & complex for silly stuff like logic & common sense.

 

[The Guard]

I would not assume Clark is already coming back just because of the dirt.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

When in the present did he fire a gun? He shot a rifle that was loaded with a tracking device.

In the Batmobile and Batwing he shot turret guns, yeah -- But in The Dark Knight Trilogy as well as Batman and Batman Returns he fired rockets from his Batmobile and Batwing. Rockets.


Yes. The Nolan Batman was more adverse to killing and avoided it at all costs. And never directly took a life. This Batman has lost more.

In the context of the story, this is a Batman who only recently started branding people (he's branded only two criminals at this point). And you can assume has only recently become violent enough to be more lenient with killing.

His experience with Superman and seeing the selfless sacrifice that he makes, reminds Bruce to be the hero that (for lack of a better expression) we deserve. That's why he only punches the brand into the wall of Luthor's cell and not into his skin. He is back to the tactics of intimidation and fear -- not murder.

That's part of his arc.

-R

He blows up the flame thrower guy with the heavy machine gun. And he has zero problem with it. I actually had no problem with him killing that person by the way. It was a him or Martha situation and thus it is understandable to me. But use a batarang. Why the gun?

Batman losing people is not suppose to turn him into a killer. I keep hearing this idea, like it is a common theme with Batman. But I can't think of all these times where it happens. It surely isn't the majority. A Death in the Family happened, he didn't become a slaughter of his enemies. Damien died, he didn't slaughter people. Batman in the comics makes BvS look like he has had a walk in the park, and yet the moments of him losing himself or so little and far inbetween, that it literally is a 1000 to 1 shot.

We can say that is apart of his arc, but the question is then, why is that his arc? Why is that a good idea for Batman?

 

[matt47]

I would not assume Clark is already coming back just because of the dirt.

I would. It was similar to the rocks moving around his hand in MoS. It made me think he was about to take off.

 

[The Guard]

I am talking about the intent. He branded people so they'd be attacked in jail. This ended up with a person dead. At least one person.

We don't know that Batman branded them for that reason.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't believe he went Punisher, I believe Punisher is on another level.

If the killing is such an important core aspect everyone believes it to be.. I would expect everyone hating on Batfleck right now.

I don't have a problem with Batfleck. I have a problem with Snyder's decision making. Ben is a good Batman, who suffers because of the script. Similar to have Cavill is a good Superman, who is at the mercy of the script and Snyder.

 

[DA_Champion]

Showing the dirt lifting as the closing scene of the film was really dumb.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Because **** logic. Logic is for Marvel films. Snyder films are too deep & complex for silly stuff like logic & common sense.

Let's not go too far. As someone who likes Marvel films I can assure you there are some huge plot holes in them. The whole plot of Ant-Man is basically one big hole.

 

[The Guard]

I would. It was similar to the rocks moving around his hand in MoS. It made me think he was about to take off.

Metaphorically, yes.

Let's wait and see shall we?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

We don't know that Batman branded them for that reason.

We do know. The make it clear with him and Alfred when they are talking about his new justice.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I would not assume Clark is already coming back just because of the dirt.

Then what was the point of the dirt movie. Talking in film logic. What is the point?

 

[Sleiek]

He blows up the flame thrower guy with the heavy machine gun. And he has zero problem with it. I actually had no problem with him killing that person by the way. It was a him or Martha situation and thus it is understandable to me. But use a batarang. Why the gun?

Does it make a difference? Batarangs or bullets, chances are either will blow that tank.

Plus you are making it sound like Batman carries a gun with live bullets. He borrows it from that other guy in that desperate moment.

 

[Robin91939]

This may be the thing that is triggering all of the liberal big media critics-- it's a Christ film and being released the week of Easter it is going to be heavily seen as a Christ film by the general audience. This is all about hating God (being inserted into a comic book). So petty.

I think this is a bit cynical and I doubt it.

I am a bleeding-heart liberal. A complete leftist. I am also an atheist through and through.

I find nothing offensive in saying that one fictional literary character is similar to another fictional literary character. Especially a literary character as well-known and revered as Jesus Christ. He, whether you believe in Him or not, shapes world views, policy and many of the events of the past two thousand years. That's influence. It stands to reason that if a being like Superman existed, he would be compared to Christ. Or even, that he would replace Christ in the eyes of the public and be viewed as the "true" Messiah.

It's very realistic and not at all religious in nature. The movie, as a story, is more meditation on this and more of an argument for good than God.


-R

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Showing the dirt lifting as the closing scene of the film was really dumb.

Of course it is. I don't think there is a defense, but we will get some.

 

[TheScarecrow]

This may be the thing that is triggering all of the liberal big media critics-- it's a Christ film and being released the week of Easter it is going to be heavily seen as a Christ film by the general audience. This is all about hating God (being inserted into a comic book). So petty.

Not sure if serious?

 

[Hurm...]

Gotta love Bruce having to tell his employees to evacuate the building when THERE IS A HUGE F***ING SPACE SHIP OUTSIDE THEIR WINDOW.

And why didn't that one employee evacuate either? "Lemme just say a prayer really quick"

Terrible.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Does it make a difference? Batarangs or bullets, chances are either will blow that tank.

Plus you are making it sound like Batman carries a gun with live bullets. He borrows it from that other guy in that desperate moment.

Yes, because it is Batman and he hates guns. Look up all the moments in the comic over the last 30 years when he uses a real gun. It tears him apart. It is the symbol of his parents death. He reacts to the idea of the name Martha, but not the instrument of their destruction.

If guns are okay, why isn't he packing serious heat?

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

Gotta love Bruce having to tell his employees to evacuate the building when THERE IS A HUGE F***ING SPACE SHIP OUTSIDE THEIR WINDOW.

And why didn't that one employee evacuate either? "Lemme just say a prayer really quick"

Terrible.

I was thinking before that, "did Bruce fly a helicopter to Metropolis? Why not have him there already?"

 

[DarthSkywalker]

This may be the thing that is triggering all of the liberal big media critics-- it's a Christ film and being released the week of Easter it is going to be heavily seen as a Christ film by the general audience. This is all about hating God (being inserted into a comic book). So petty.

This is my favorite post.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Metaphorically, yes.

Let's wait and see shall we?

Wait and see what? I mean we know he's coming back... Superman isn't permanently dead in this universe.

 

[Roose Bolton]

He blows up the flame thrower guy with the heavy machine gun. And he has zero problem with it. I actually had no problem with him killing that person by the way. It was a him or Martha situation and thus it is understandable to me. But use a batarang. Why the gun?

That scene is directly lifted from the Dark Knight Returns, so I imagine it was simply Snyder referencing Frank Miller.

 

[ThePhantasm]

That scene is directly lifted from the Dark Knight Returns, so I imagine it was simply Snyder referencing Frank Miller.

Yeah, Snyder already confirmed he stole that from Miller.