The Wrestling Thread...Has Set Me Free!- - Part 41

[Mr.Webs]

I heard only nice things about Owen, so him not apologizing to Austin I think was due to shame on his own part. Coming from a wrestling family like that, and to make that big of a mistake, he must have felt like a real **** heel.

I love that Jericho GIF.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Here ya go Nell.

Odd thing for me to say as I don't like The Rock, but I think it would be better to allow the fans to enjoy his celebration to close Mania, and have Cena snap on Raw the next night when Rock calls him out for a handshake.

Thanks, Hunter.

And believe it or not, despite how adamant I am about how "I watch wrestling", I do understand the concept of the old guy coming back and putting the "current guy" over (I think where I ultimately disagree is with the degree of it)

But in this case, I literally do not see any positive to having Cena win.

People are tired of him. Cena is part of the reason that ratings steadily drop, and aren't where they used to be. People love The Rock, and while he doesn't necessarily bring in viewers that wouldn't watch anyways, he is beloved.

Cena beating The Rock is going to do nothing but alienate those fans that are on the fence as it is already. And yea, Rock going over Cena won't do much of anything either, but the match has to end somehow, someone has to win, and quite frankly, I see the crowd responding much better to Rock winning.

I just - I don't see this match doing much for the long term of the company. This is just a dream match, a match that fans want to see, and a match that will guarantee a certain number of PPV buys. There's a built in storyline with the things Cena has said about The Rock in the past, so it makes sense to happen. But yea, if there is going to be any "long term benefit" to this match, it HAS to involve a drastic change in Cena's character. Probably a heel turn, but not even necessarily that, just something, ANYTHING to change his character.

Even I'm over Cena, and I've never been an adamant hater of him. I miss the John Cena that was feuding with JBL. That was a cool John Cena. This John Cena? Not so much.

 

[bullets]

I heard only nice things about Owen, so him not apologizing to Austin I think was due to shame on his own part. Coming from a wrestling family like that, and to make that big of a mistake, he must have felt like a real **** heel.

HBK wrestled Owen twice on Raw after he broke Austin's neck, there was never an issue between the two, Shawn even let Owen attack him from behind in a pretty physical post-match beatdown at the Degeneration X PPV.

Have you guys seen the documentary about Owen's death on A&E ( IIRC) . It shows him backstage as Steve is being led to an ambulance and he is sitting on a crate looking grief stricken. I knew from seeing that how sorry Owen must have felt but it always bothered me that he didn't call to apologize while Steve was in the hospital.

Also I don't think Shawn had any real issues with Owen. Bret would of mentioned something about it.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

So I just got my cable turned back on, and decided to put on some TNA just for the crap of it.

Just turned it on, but let me get this straight...

-Jeff Hardy is a face now
-Jeff Hardy and Sting are friends
-Roode is a heel
-Beer Money is broken up
-Abyss is a face
-Kurt Angle is a heel
-Sting is the on-air authority figure

Did they just flip everything in TNA to the opposite of what it was the last time I watched? Is this bizarro-TNA???

Oh well, at least the Knockouts are still hot.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Thanks, Hunter.

And believe it or not, despite how adamant I am about how "I watch wrestling", I do understand the concept of the old guy coming back and putting the "current guy" over (I think where I ultimately disagree is with the degree of it)

But in this case, I literally do not see any positive to having Cena win.

People are tired of him. Cena is part of the reason that ratings steadily drop, and aren't where they used to be. People love The Rock, and while he doesn't necessarily bring in viewers that wouldn't watch anyways, he is beloved.

Cena beating The Rock is going to do nothing but alienate those fans that are on the fence as it is already. And yea, Rock going over Cena won't do much of anything either, but the match has to end somehow, someone has to win, and quite frankly, I see the crowd responding much better to Rock winning.

I just - I don't see this match doing much for the long term of the company. This is just a dream match, a match that fans want to see, and a match that will guarantee a certain number of PPV buys. There's a built in storyline with the things Cena has said about The Rock in the past, so it makes sense to happen. But yea, if there is going to be any "long term benefit" to this match, it HAS to involve a drastic change in Cena's character. Probably a heel turn, but not even necessarily that, just something, ANYTHING to change his character.

Even I'm over Cena, and I've never been an adamant hater of him. I miss the John Cena that was feuding with JBL. That was a cool John Cena. This John Cena? Not so much.

You're welcome Nell.

To clarify my stance on guys getting put over, the first thing for me is dependent on who the guy is, for instance there are young guys who need big wins in the company to establish them, wrestling is a work but even in a movie you have to put in events to make someone seem important.

However with a guy like Cena it's a different dynamic, he is already a huge star and the result won't alter things in any way, shape or form, I doubt if he wins the fans will tune out because the company has shoveled more crap than that at us and kept their viewers, nor will his kiddie fanbase stop buying his merch if he loses.

Now is it a good look if a guy who hasn't wrestled a singles match in 8 years comes back and beats the companies top man? No, especially if all that Cena does to react to this is come out the next night with his "gee shucks" crap. However The Rock beats Cena because he got in his head and the fans got in his head, thus leading to Cena snapping, beating the Rock bloody and finding his edge? you get buyrate + Happy crowd + Long term benefit = Win!

Have you guys seen the documentary about Owen's death on A&E ( IIRC) . It shows him backstage as Steve is being led to an ambulance and he is sitting on a crate looking grief stricken. I knew from seeing that how sorry Owen must have felt but it always bothered me that he didn't call to apologize while Steve was in the hospital.

Also I don't think Shawn had any real issues with Owen. Bret would of mentioned something about it.

Never seen that but as a good guy and pro I am sure Owen was upset, but I recall even Bret saying he was dissapointed that Owen didn't give Austin a call.

I think Bret has said before that the beef with him and Shawn was about those two, Owen never wanted to get involved and Nash and co stayed out of it as well.

 

[Hunter Rider]

So I just got my cable turned back on, and decided to put on some TNA just for the crap of it.

Just turned it on, but let me get this straight...

-Jeff Hardy is a face now
-Jeff Hardy and Sting are friends
-Roode is a heel
-Beer Money is broken up
-Abyss is a face
-Kurt Angle is a heel
-Sting is the on-air authority figure

Did they just flip everything in TNA to the opposite of what it was the last time I watched? Is this bizarro-TNA???

Oh well, at least the Knockouts are still hot.

That's pretty much the size of it, although I think Angle has been heel for quite some time now. In truth overall it's the best TNA has been for a long time, take that as you will lol.

 

[Team Andino]

So I just got my cable turned back on, and decided to put on some TNA just for the crap of it.

Just turned it on, but let me get this straight...

-Jeff Hardy is a face now
-Jeff Hardy and Sting are friends
-Roode is a heel
-Beer Money is broken up
-Abyss is a face
-Kurt Angle is a heel
-Sting is the on-air authority figure

Did they just flip everything in TNA to the opposite of what it was the last time I watched? Is this bizarro-TNA???

Oh well, at least the Knockouts are still hot.

Hope you're not considering having your cable taken down now...

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

You're welcome Nell.

To clarify my stance on guys getting put over, the first thing for me is dependent on who the guy is, for instance there are young guys who need big wins in the company to establish them, wrestling is a work but even in a movie you have to put in events to make someone seem important.

However with a guy like Cena it's a different dynamic, he is already a huge star and the result won't alter things in any way, shape or form, I doubt if he wins the fans will tune out because the company has shoveled more crap than that at us and kept their viewers, nor will his kiddie fanbase stop buying his merch if he loses.

Now is it a good look if a guy who hasn't wrestled a singles match in 8 years comes back and beats the companies top man? No, especially if all that Cena does to react to this is come out the next night with his "gee shucks" crap. However The Rock beats Cena because he got in his head and the fans got in his head, thus leading to Cena snapping, beating the Rock bloody and finding his edge? you get buyrate + Happy crowd + Long term benefit = Win!

I would say that you and I can agree on that (shocking, I know! )

And I've also come to notice something too - it at least seems to be a trend.

I notice that people are always going on and on and on about a lot of guys, and at the time, I'm just like , cuz I don't see them as main event type players, but people are talking about them as future champions.

Guys like CM Punk, Dolph Ziggler, Cody Rhodes, Zack Ryder, those are a few who instantly come to mind.

But as time progresses, I become more and more into these guys, they've slowly built up that cred in my book, and all of a sudden, I can see them being worthy of the praise.

As of now, I believe CM Punk as a legitimate -TOP- guy. Not even just main eventer, but TOP guy. As far as I'm concerned, he's the most interesting top tier main eventer on the roster (as a disclaimer - by "top tier" I'm talking about the Randy Orton, John Cena, CM Punk caliber guys, and Miz not in those ranks, as I think we know who my favorite is ).

Ziggler and Rhodes, I actually like now. I've stated before that I'm not quite ready to see them in the main event scene (permanently - this Dolph Ziggler title match at Royal Rumble is fine by me), and I'm not, but I believe they deserve the pushes they've been given, and established themselves as credible, and in time, I could see them being top card guys.

Ryder, well I don't see him as main event talent, but I do think he fits in very well with the mid card as a title holder. It's hard to explain, but Ryder just "feels" right in that spot.

Another example, that nobody around here ever did, and probably never will praise, is The Miz, who at one point I looked at as "See, THIS is why I hate WWE now, because they have guys like this on the roster", but now, is my current favorite in the company and an arguable top 10 favorite ever.

For me, it's not so much about guys getting "over" via winning matches (CM Punk was starting to win me over during a run where he was getting constantly "buried" PPV after PPV by Randy Orton, but still came out more "credible" in my eyes), but rather just showing that they belong by being good performers and making believable characters.

I actually -believe- Ziggler as a character now. And to be honest, even if he is talking better than he used to, I hope they keep him paired up with Vickie, because I think the pairing just works. I also like the little mini semi-stable between Vickie, Ziggler, Swagger, and Rhodes.

But Del Rio is probably about the only guy that came in and right away I was like "Yea, this guy in the main event? It just "feels" right", and I still do feel that way, even if he's showing that he's not on the same level as the truly top guys.

So I guess that's why it's not always about wins and losses to me, it's about how a guy does in the role and makes me believe that he belongs. That's why I've said in the past (and continue to believe) that wins and losses ultimately don't matter.

There is an importance that they have, to be sure, but the storyline progression to me is what builds the character, not giving guys a bunch of wins.

Like people say that Daniel Bryan isn't credible cuz he was booked as a loser leading up to his cash in, and I say Daniel Bryan isn't credible because he is not a believable character as a world champion, and it's not because of his "size", it's because he doesn't have the whole package.

 

[Benstamania]

...Good post up until you said you believe Del Rio deserves to be in the main event. Boo! Hiss!

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Hope you're not considering having your cable taken down now...

Oh no no, it's just TNA, let's not be that drastic. I wouldn't do that.

I'm just going to kill myself instead.

 

[Rincewind]

...Good post up until you said you believe Del Rio deserves to be in the main event. Boo! Hiss!

From what I've seen of him, Del Rio himself isn't bad at all, he's just handled badly by WWE's creative. He only needs a better and more interesting character, and to get better on the mic. If that's taken care of, I can also easily take him a believable and credible top guy.

 

[bullets]

Like people say that Daniel Bryan isn't credible cuz he was booked as a loser leading up to his cash in, and I say Daniel Bryan isn't credible because he is not a believable character as a world champion, and it's not because of his "size", it's because he doesn't have the whole package.

I think once you reach a certain level of credibility it becomes less about a win/loss record . Some of the top guys can easily take a few losses and be built back up again. Also you can look good in defeat given the right opponent. I remember an old Raw match where Triple H was the world champion and he almost lost to a mid carder ( Taka Michinoku) .
I just think it's so one-sided nowadays that it becomes too predictable and less interesting.

I like Daniel Bryan but he's not exactly setting the world on fire. I think with time he'll be booked stronger and will eventually win more people over.

 

[Lunar_Wolf]

So I just got my cable turned back on, and decided to put on some TNA just for the crap of it.

Just turned it on, but let me get this straight...

-Jeff Hardy is a face now
-Jeff Hardy and Sting are friends
-Roode is a heel
-Beer Money is broken up
-Abyss is a face
-Kurt Angle is a heel
-Sting is the on-air authority figure

Did they just flip everything in TNA to the opposite of what it was the last time I watched? Is this bizarro-TNA???

Oh well, at least the Knockouts are still hot.

I knew most of this except for Abyss is heel...The problem is, these drastic changes in characters really destroy any meaning to the product. For example, RVD getting butchered by Abyss is still fresh in my head. I cannot watch TNA and except such a massive personality change or even these two characters being on the same page.

 

[chamber-music]

You're welcome Nell.

To clarify my stance on guys getting put over, the first thing for me is dependent on who the guy is, for instance there are young guys who need big wins in the company to establish them, wrestling is a work but even in a movie you have to put in events to make someone seem important.

However with a guy like Cena it's a different dynamic, he is already a huge star and the result won't alter things in any way, shape or form, I doubt if he wins the fans will tune out because the company has shoveled more crap than that at us and kept their viewers, nor will his kiddie fanbase stop buying his merch if he loses.

Now is it a good look if a guy who hasn't wrestled a singles match in 8 years comes back and beats the companies top man? No, especially if all that Cena does to react to this is come out the next night with his "gee shucks" crap. However The Rock beats Cena because he got in his head and the fans got in his head, thus leading to Cena snapping, beating the Rock bloody and finding his edge? you get buyrate + Happy crowd + Long term benefit = Win!

I just don't believe WWE has the stones to turn Cena heel. They could of done it plenty of times but instead they have Cena 'rise above it'. Cena turning heel could be as big as Hogan turning heel but WWE is worried in the long term the little jimmys will tune out if Cena is a bad guy.

 

[Rincewind]

I just don't believe WWE has the stones to turn Cena heel. They could of done it plenty of times but instead they have Cena 'rise above it'. Cena turning heel could be as big as Hogan turning heel but WWE is worried in the long term the little jimmys will tune out if Cena is a bad guy.

And that's what boggles my mind. When Hogan turned heel, the business exploded and the nWo became insanely popular exactly because of this. Why would anyone tune out if Cena becomes a bad guy?

Tuning out because of a heel turn doesn't sound like a kid's mentality. Whoever thinks that kids are little innocent angels who want to watch hugs and friendship is either not familiar with kids or has forgotten what it is to be one. Kids want excitement and action, they love to be scared and to hate.

The problem with turning Cena heel is that there is nobody to replace him as the Main Good Guy figure. Both Orton and Punk are kinda too sinister to be the ultra babyface. But then again, there was never a Single Big Babyface in the Attitude Era either (both the Rock and Stone Cold were far from being knights in shining armor, after all), and it's still a period unrivaled in mass popularity for wrestling.

 

[Hunter Rider]

I would say that you and I can agree on that (shocking, I know! )

*Collapses!*

And I've also come to notice something too - it at least seems to be a trend.

I notice that people are always going on and on and on about a lot of guys, and at the time, I'm just like , cuz I don't see them as main event type players, but people are talking about them as future champions.

Guys like CM Punk, Dolph Ziggler, Cody Rhodes, Zack Ryder, those are a few who instantly come to mind.

But as time progresses, I become more and more into these guys, they've slowly built up that cred in my book, and all of a sudden, I can see them being worthy of the praise.

As of now, I believe CM Punk as a legitimate -TOP- guy. Not even just main eventer, but TOP guy. As far as I'm concerned, he's the most interesting top tier main eventer on the roster (as a disclaimer - by "top tier" I'm talking about the Randy Orton, John Cena, CM Punk caliber guys, and Miz not in those ranks, as I think we know who my favorite is ).

Well that shows you have a more open mind than a lot of people do when it comes to wrestling, movies, TV.........bascially any form of entertainement where people's initial view tends to be the one they stick to regardless.

Ziggler and Rhodes, I actually like now. I've stated before that I'm not quite ready to see them in the main event scene (permanently - this Dolph Ziggler title match at Royal Rumble is fine by me), and I'm not, but I believe they deserve the pushes they've been given, and established themselves as credible, and in time, I could see them being top card guys.

I think Rhodes needs to follow through on his speech about making the Intercontinental championship important again, so I'd keep the WHC or WWE title off him until at least the summer. Dolph though has had long runs with both mid-card titles, I think he is ready to run and Smackdown could well be ideal for a Post-Mania title reign for him.

Ryder, well I don't see him as main event talent, but I do think he fits in very well with the mid card as a title holder. It's hard to explain, but Ryder just "feels" right in that spot.

Agreed, Zack is a classic mid card champion, he should be a figurehead of that division for a long time, he also could be a good tag champ with the right partner, but I don't see him ever being WWE of WHC.

Another example, that nobody around here ever did, and probably never will praise, is The Miz, who at one point I looked at as "See, THIS is why I hate WWE now, because they have guys like this on the roster", but now, is my current favorite in the company and an arguable top 10 favorite ever.

In truth myself and Sage were often giving Miz credit when he was US champion, my issue was with him as WWE champion. I think of him like Ryder, a perfect mid card champion only in heel form.

For me, it's not so much about guys getting "over" via winning matches (CM Punk was starting to win me over during a run where he was getting constantly "buried" PPV after PPV by Randy Orton, but still came out more "credible" in my eyes), but rather just showing that they belong by being good performers and making believable characters.

I actually -believe- Ziggler as a character now. And to be honest, even if he is talking better than he used to, I hope they keep him paired up with Vickie, because I think the pairing just works. I also like the little mini semi-stable between Vickie, Ziggler, Swagger, and Rhodes.

But Del Rio is probably about the only guy that came in and right away I was like "Yea, this guy in the main event? It just "feels" right", and I still do feel that way, even if he's showing that he's not on the same level as the truly top guys.

So I guess that's why it's not always about wins and losses to me, it's about how a guy does in the role and makes me believe that he belongs. That's why I've said in the past (and continue to believe) that wins and losses ultimately don't matter.

There is an importance that they have, to be sure, but the storyline progression to me is what builds the character, not giving guys a bunch of wins.

Like people say that Daniel Bryan isn't credible cuz he was booked as a loser leading up to his cash in, and I say Daniel Bryan isn't credible because he is not a believable character as a world champion, and it's not because of his "size", it's because he doesn't have the whole package.

I think wins are needed if you are going to become an established star, you have to be positioned to have something to brag about, otherwise talking about being the best is hollow when all you do is lose and it becomes hard to buy into a guy as a top guy, Ziggler's amazing in ring ability has perhaps helped him avoid such an issue, however he will eventually need to win a couple of big matches to cement himself, even Cena needed that.

Del Rio has a well used gimmick but his look and in ring ability certainly screams champion, he's just a guy who has suffered from the extra freedom wrestler's have been given on the mic since the summer, he looks lost in a promo battle.

While I agree Bryan is never going to be a main event mainstay the WWE have never even giving him a fighting chance with the booking. Bryan is a GREAT wrestler and can actually talk, however his look was always going to prevent him from being a top guy, but if they had let him shine as a wrestler with wins I think he'd have a less uphill struggle to be a strong long term upper-mid carder.

 

[Hunter Rider]

I just don't believe WWE has the stones to turn Cena heel. They could of done it plenty of times but instead they have Cena 'rise above it'. Cena turning heel could be as big as Hogan turning heel but WWE is worried in the long term the little jimmys will tune out if Cena is a bad guy.

With the pushes of Punk and Sheamus and the icnreasing boos for Cena, now might just be the right time.

 

[Hunter Rider]

- WZ has learned that a match between CM Punk vs John Laurinaitis is in the future plans of WWE creative.

After speaking with sources it seems that match is expected to happen sometime in February. Laurinaitis being the special guest referee in Punk's WWE title defense at the Royal Rumble is likely to be a significant point in the conflict between the two that leads to a match.

There are some feel that Laurinaitis role as a heel is going well, a pay-per-view match at Elimination Chamber with CM Punk has been brought up. However, others think that on the road to WrestleMania, CM Punk should not be working a match on PPV with someone who is not a wrestler on the WWE roster.

Whenever the match between the two takes place, some sort of stipulation for the winner and loser has been discussed to increase the importance of the bout.

- We previously reported that WWE Champion CM Punk will be appearing at the 1/28 UFC event on FOX 2, escorting Chael Sonnen to the octagon for his fight.

PWInsider.com is now reporting that this was not a deal made between WWE and UFC, but rather Punk asked for the night off from WWE so that he could appear at the event, which takes place in his hometown of Chicago.

- When asked on Twitter whether or not he will ever return to a full-time announcing position in WWE, Jim Ross replied by saying "most likely never. WWE likes what they hear."

 

[Wheels]

I guess Vince likes horrible commentary.

 

[NDX]

When asked on Twitter whether or not he will ever return to a full-time announcing position in WWE, Jim Ross replied by saying "most likely never. WWE likes what they hear."

Shame us fans don't.

 

[Wheels]

It's a damn shame that Kevin Kelly is the best play by play man in wrestling today.

 

[chamber-music]

And that's what boggles my mind. When Hogan turned heel, the business exploded and the nWo became insanely popular exactly because of this. Why would anyone tune out if Cena becomes a bad guy?

Tuning out because of a heel turn doesn't sound like a kid's mentality. Whoever thinks that kids are little innocent angels who want to watch hugs and friendship is either not familiar with kids or has forgotten what it is to be one. Kids want excitement and action, they love to be scared and to hate.

The problem with turning Cena heel is that there is nobody to replace him as the Main Good Guy figure. Both Orton and Punk are kinda too sinister to be the ultra babyface. But then again, there was never a Single Big Babyface in the Attitude Era either (both the Rock and Stone Cold were far from being knights in shining armor, after all), and it's still a period unrivaled in mass popularity for wrestling.

lil Rey Rey could be their ultra babyface when he returns.

 

[Slushy]

HBK wrestled Owen twice on Raw after he broke Austin's neck, there was never an issue between the two, Shawn even let Owen attack him from behind in a pretty physical post-match beatdown at the Degeneration X PPV.

See I have a hard time believing that. Instead of capilizing on Montreal by giving Owen a title shot at the Royal Rumble against the guy that humilated his brother, he gets demoted to fueding with HBK's buddy while Michaels has another match against The Undertaker. Screwy booking if you ask me.

From what I've seen of him, Del Rio himself isn't bad at all, he's just handled badly by WWE's creative. He only needs a better and more interesting character, and to get better on the mic. If that's taken care of, I can also easily take him a believable and credible top guy.

This. I knew from the moment Del Rio beat Mysterio clean on day one that he would be a star and for the most part, he had a fantastic year in 2011: Won the biggest Royal Rumble to date, was in an awesome main event for SD at Wrestlemania, took credit for ending Edge's career, had one of the best ladder matches against Christian, won MITB, won the WWE Championship twice, took out Mysterio, and won a Hell In The Cell.

All those accomplishments in a single year is quite impressive. Del Rio's only problem is not being given the ball for a long period of time since there's too many cooks in the kitchen.

He needs to be drafted to Smackdown, do more dastardly things as a heel to get heat, and be the World Heavyweight Champion at least for 3 to 6 months. If they can get that right, I think Del Rio will finally be taken seriously.

 

[Pink Ranger]

lil Rey Rey could be their ultra babyface when he returns.

Rey is too old maybe, but Ryder can easily be turned into the kid-friendly A-list babyface at the drop of a hat, the same way Miz was quickly elevated to the main event heel slot. At worst it would be a temporary solution, at best they'd get lightning in a bottle.

 

[Hunter Rider]

See I have a hard time believing that. Instead of capilizing on Montreal by giving Owen a title shot at the Royal Rumble against the guy that humilated his brother, he gets demoted to fueding with HBK's buddy while Michaels has another match against The Undertaker. Screwy booking if you ask me.

Not really, Owen didn't want to be WWF champion and if you recall the HBK/Taker match was as much about intergrating Mike Tyson and having Kane burn Taker in the casket as it was anything else. Owen's first promo back was very similar to Matt Hardy's in the wake of the Edge/Lita affair, a promo with no charisma and too many mistakes for Vince to see top guy potential. This was also an era where the WWF title match went on last and HBK vs Taker was a much bigger match than HBK vs Owen at a big 4 PPV.