Homecoming The Zendaya is possibly someone, maybe thread - Part 4

[UltimateWebhead]

well that was my point.

Spectacular was the hs version of 616 MJ.

Oh. Ok. Well in that regard we agree. But the MJ in TSSM was not an extrapolated version of 616. Whereas Gwen and Harry are extrapolated versions of their 616 counterparts, MJ is the 616 version almost exactly only the age is different. That doesn't constitute an extrapolated character. At least not imo going by the definition.

 

[X Knight]

Oh. Ok. Well in that regard we agree. But the MJ in TSSM was not an extrapolated version of 616. Whereas Gwen and Harry are extrapolated versions of their 616 counterparts, MJ is the 616 version almost exactly only the age is different. That doesn't constitute an extrapolated character. At least not imo going by the definition.

ah, well perhaps I misinterpreted what you were going for, and perhaps extrapolate wasn't the right word to use.

though, if you think about it, you could see Spectacular MJ growing up to be a hot bombshell model/actress like 616 MJ. She seems that type of girl.

or put another way, if you imagine what 616 MJ would have been like in hs, I'd think you would come up with a girl like Spectacular MJ. Spectacular MJ was pretty, playful/flirty/sassy, and into drama/acting. She's the life of the party, center of attention, and the girl all the guys want to take to the prom. When she gets older, you can see her becoming a model/actress who's known for her stunning looks.

that's how I meant by extrapolating. not sure if you have to be wildly different in order for it to be an extrapolation.

 

[Surfer]

More the physical change as it relates to her mental reasoning for it. The "I'm the best friend but now I'm hot and all of a sudden he likes me romantically" cliche is a bit tired, and sends some negative messages to the female audience members. Also, it doesn't fit with MJ as a character. She was a model because she wanted to be. She wasn't doing it for anyone else. Certably not to catch the eye of Peter.

That's what I'm worried about with this situation. If they do make her more MJ in appearance, I don't want the change to be motivated by a romantic yearning for Peter.

I get your point about not wanting Peter to be the reason for Michelle's transformation into Mary Jane, but really from what we know her introduction appears to be brief, so I think Marvel can still bring about her change in a lot of different and creative ways and not have it seem cliche or to send negative messages to women about beauty. I think it is quite possible Michelle's home life is already not great in Spider-man Homecoming and perhaps she masks it now by acting like she doesn't give a crap. Then maybe as she gets older her personality will evolve from not giving a crap to being more carefree, which brings about more of a party girl personality. Also, if her home life is Abusive, maybe she is always being told she is Ugly. So, she transforms herself into one of the prettiest girls in school as her way of telling her father she will not be defined by his insults. So, her evolution as a character would be showing strength. I just think there is still a lot they can do with the character to bring about a natural evolution that will pay respect to Mary Jane from the comics.

Surf

 

[Infinity9999x]

I get your point about not wanting Peter to be the reason for Michelle's transformation into Mary Jane, but really from what we know her introduction appears to be brief, so I think Marvel can still bring about her change in a lot of different and creative ways and not have it seem cliche or to send negative messages to women about beauty. I think it is quite possible Michelle's home life is already not great in Spider-man Homecoming and perhaps she masks it now by acting like she doesn't give a crap. Then maybe as she gets older her personality will evolve from not giving a crap to being more carefree, which brings about more of a party girl personality. Also, if her home life is Abusive, maybe she is always being told she is Ugly. So, she transforms herself into one of the prettiest girls in school as her way of telling her father she will not be defined by his insults. So, her evolution as a character would be showing strength. I just think there is still a lot they can do with the character to bring about a natural evolution that will pay respect to Mary Jane from the comics.

Surf

I don't mind that idea. And even though SSM didn't do the same "working backwards" idea with MJ as they did with Gwen, I could see this as being a possible interpretation for how a younger MJ would have acted. It's not too out there to think that her more abrasive confidence and "I give zero f*&&#'s attitude slowly turns into a more carefree kind of spunky as she gets older.

It's still not the ideal path I'd like to see, because the loner who pushes others away with their sardonic wit due to a troubled home life is a high school archetype we see a lot...whereas the "I'm going to be the life of the party so no one realizes how much my life sucks" mentality I find to be more intriguing. It's certainly not original (sadly, it describes the experience of most of our favorite comedians), but it's an archetype I don't see explored as often in high school films.

 

[sl500jazz]

If I had to guess, I'd say we'll be seeing a softer/nicer and more traditionally stylish Michelle as the series progresses. They're establishing Michelle as being a brain so I doubt they'll take her down the model/actress route, and I can't see her becoming a party girl either.

Do you think

Spoiler

the reason why they are holding back with Michelle is because what they said about her "friends calling her MJ" is true? If so then the verdict is in! We all called it.

Yeah I'm aware of that spoiler, but it leaves more questions than answers for me.

I'm not assuming that. I'm saying it's obvious that she's going to evolve as a character, whomever she turns out to be. Whether or not she's Mary Jane remains to be seen but there is a foundation for that evolution, I think.

Fair enough

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

So I read that Michelle has a line where she tells her friends to call her

Spoiler

MJ

Is this true? And, if so, it reminds me of the 'TMNT' reboot where William Fichtner was cast as Eric Sachs which many believed (including myself) that the production team and writers were Anglicizing and white-washing Oroku Saki before they revealed Oroku Saki was still indeed in the film. So, if she is MJ, does this mean she is Michelle Jane or Michelle Johnson or is this poor attempt at poking fun at the audience?

Pretty lame if you ask me to keep it in if true.

.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Yes.

 

[Avenging Angel]

Right now I'm just puzzled by so many things and not in a curious way.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

i feel like the reason i feel michelle isn't like mj personality-wise is that she comes off a bit mean which mj never was but if it had been just the one throwaway line in the movie it would've been fine, but it's zendaya's insistence that michelle is, by her own words:

1) weird, says weird things at the wrong times.
2) wouldn't care less if she found out Peter Parker was Spider-Man. He can fly across NYC using spider webbing, you say? Who cares!
3) "My character is not romantic. My character is like very dry, awkward, intellectual and because she's so smart, she just feels like she doesn't need to talk to people. Like, 'My brain is so far ahead of you that you're just not really on my level.' So she comes off very weird."

that just throws me off. i don't remember any version of mj giving off that vibe. mj is sassy and doesn't take any crap but she's not mean about it. she doesn't go around calling people losers for no reason and thinking she's better than others because wow she reads. plus, the whole name thing.

agreed...

and i see alot of people trying to justify it to themselves for they love this movie so much already (even without seeing it) that they can't really seem to be ok with "anything" being upsetting or something they got wrong.

there's alot of justificating going on.. but no one's really coming up with a good justification as to why this needed to go down in the first place... it really alienates long time MJ fans who've been begging for a faithful MJ for so long.. and have not once gotten it. which is ironic because i don't think the people doing all this "Forced" justification would be complaining if we got an accurate MJ at all.

but per usual. Mj fans get dumped on... it's been happening for a bit in the books (its also why i quit buying marvel comics all together), hell.. Tony's Pepper Pots in some ways is more MJ than any incarnation we've gotten (or almost got) on film.

the Joe Quesada era at marvel (which includes Fiege and many others) all can't stand her for some reason... never have been able to.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

For no reason?? Peter and Ned were being creepy...they basically admitted it themselves! The whole idea of her not caring about anyone or about what Peter is up to, thinking she's better, etc. is so very clearly a facade. I mean, that's obvious from her "my friends are up there!" scene in one of the trailers. I'm certain she is going to "soften" and we will learn that a lot of her "meanness" is just an act or defense mechanism. As for her character not being romantic, well yeah...because Peter is crushing on Liz right now. That doesn't mean things won't change, that we won't see more character/romantic development in future movies.

Of course none of know the thought process behind the "Michelle = MJ" twist right now. But I don't think it's an easter egg or a bait and switch tactic or proof that Marvel is testing the waters. I think Feige, Watts and Co. already know what they want to do. Why they chose this route...well, who knows. Hopefully, we'll get some answers.

i absolutely have no desire to wait for multiple films for MJ to evolve into "Mary Jane Watson" id much rather see her evolve from "Mary Jane Watson, the party girl facade" and evolve into "Mary Jane Watson-Parker" the down to earth real, human with layers, depth, and the heart that matches her strength.. while still being a fighter and a survivor with spunk

 

[X Knight]

agreed...

and i see alot of people trying to justify it to themselves for they love this movie so much already (even without seeing it) that they can't really seem to be ok with "anything" being upsetting or something they got wrong.

there's alot of justificating going on.. but no one's really coming up with a good justification as to why this needed to go down in the first place... it really alienates long time MJ fans who've been begging for a faithful MJ for so long.. and have not once gotten it. which is ironic because i don't think the people doing all this "Forced" justification would be complaining if we got an accurate MJ at all.

but per usual. Mj fans get dumped on... it's been happening for a bit in the books (its also why i quit buying marvel comics all together), hell.. Tony's Pepper Pots in some ways is more MJ than any incarnation we've gotten (or almost got) on film.

the Joe Quesada era at marvel (which includes Fiege and many others) all can't stand her for some reason... never have been able to.

i absolutely have no desire to wait for multiple films for MJ to evolve into "Mary Jane Watson" id much rather see her evolve from "Mary Jane Watson, the party girl facade" and evolve into "Mary Jane Watson-Parker" the down to earth real, human with layers, depth, and the heart that matches her strength.. while still being a fighter and a survivor with spunk

agreed.

 

[Infinity9999x]

agreed...

and i see alot of people trying to justify it to themselves for they love this movie so much already (even without seeing it) that they can't really seem to be ok with "anything" being upsetting or something they got wrong.

there's alot of justificating going on.. but no one's really coming up with a good justification as to why this needed to go down in the first place... it really alienates long time MJ fans who've been begging for a faithful MJ for so long.. and have not once gotten it. which is ironic because i don't think the people doing all this "Forced" justification would be complaining if we got an accurate MJ at all.

but per usual. Mj fans get dumped on... it's been happening for a bit in the books (its also why i quit buying marvel comics all together), hell.. Tony's Pepper Pots in some ways is more MJ than any incarnation we've gotten (or almost got) on film.

the Joe Quesada era at marvel (which includes Fiege and many others) all can't stand her for some reason... never have been able to.

I don't understand it either. I see how there's potential to turn Z's character into MJ, but as others have said, I'm not sure why they felt the need to go in such an odd direction with her.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

agreed...

and i see alot of people trying to justify it to themselves for they love this movie so much already (even without seeing it) that they can't really seem to be ok with "anything" being upsetting or something they got wrong.

there's alot of justificating going on.. but no one's really coming up with a good justification as to why this needed to go down in the first place... it really alienates long time MJ fans who've been begging for a faithful MJ for so long.. and have not once gotten it. which is ironic because i don't think the people doing all this "Forced" justification would be complaining if we got an accurate MJ at all.

but per usual. Mj fans get dumped on... it's been happening for a bit in the books (its also why i quit buying marvel comics all together), hell.. Tony's Pepper Pots in some ways is more MJ than any incarnation we've gotten (or almost got) on film.

the Joe Quesada era at marvel (which includes Fiege and many others) all can't stand her for some reason... never have been able to.

i absolutely have no desire to wait for multiple films for MJ to evolve into "Mary Jane Watson" id much rather see her evolve from "Mary Jane Watson, the party girl facade" and evolve into "Mary Jane Watson-Parker" the down to earth real, human with layers, depth, and the heart that matches her strength.. while still being a fighter and a survivor with spunk

I agree.

It's like I stated before, if Marvel really wanted to 'differentiate' themselves from past movies with Homecoming they would have gone with the classic version of MJ since they've yet to use that characterization in the manner which you described (emboldened part).

Especially when they've cast an actress like Zendaya. I realize she isn't keeping totally in line with the visual authenticity of MJ, but they could have still given her the red hair and more to the point, Zendaya already has the right demeanor or charisma, whatever you want to call it, that would have suited a direct transposition of a classic MJ character.

edit: and I really don't quite understand it either with regard to the Marvel 'hate' for Mary Jane. You'd think with a character like her, one with such a great history and is already developed as the perfect foil to Peter, they'd be promoting her more as a top tier character. Instead though, we get Marvel taking advantage of the fan base's love for her and they simply use her as a 'cover model' for variant issues of comics to increase sales.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I agree.

It's like I stated before, if Marvel really wanted to 'differentiate' themselves from past movies with Homecoming they would have gone with the classic version of MJ since they've yet to use that characterization in the manner which you described (emboldened part).

Especially when they've cast an actress like Zendaya. I realize she isn't keeping totally in line with the visual authenticity of MJ, but they could have still given her the red hair and more to the point, Zendaya already has the right demeanor or charisma, whatever you want to call it, that would have suited a direct transposition of a classic MJ character.

edit: and I really don't quite understand it either with regard to the Marvel 'hate' for Mary Jane. You'd think with a character like her, one with such a great history and is already developed as the perfect foil to Peter, they'd be promoting her more as a top tier character. Instead though, we get Marvel taking advantage of the fan base's love for her and they simply use her as a 'cover model' for variant issues of comics to increase sales.

well with joey q i always equated it to "awkward nerd who grew up thinking he too could score an MJ, couldn't, deemed it unrealistic and hated her for "tricking" him" basically a 2 wanted to score a 10, because he related to a 7 (peter) and thought he was said "nerdy 7"...

 

[AlluAllu]

Well, she was in the movie even less than I thought.

 

[Charmqn]

She definitely was, but it is definitely a stepping stone for the sequels. I will be very interested to see which way they take Michelle later on.

 

[Hypestyle]

Does Zendaya have a new R&B album prepared for release this summer? This would be a good time to do that.

 

[Surfer]

She definitely was, but it is definitely a stepping stone for the sequels. I will be very interested to see which way they take Michelle later on.

If you have seen Spider-man Homecoming does Michelle's MJ comment seem clear to people watching the movie she is Mary Jane?

Thanks,

Surfer

 

[fionabinona]

Hi just back from the cinema I really loved it night see it again tmoro. I felt with the audience I saw it with the whole mj line went over their heads. It was really said almost in passing what caught their attention was neds like e but u don't have any friends that got a few laughs.

Definitely get the vibes from her that she digs Peter but he hardly acknowledges she is even there.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

well with joey q i always equated it to "awkward nerd who grew up thinking he too could score an MJ, couldn't, deemed it unrealistic and hated her for "tricking" him" basically a 2 wanted to score a 10, because he related to a 7 (peter) and thought he was said "nerdy 7"...

Ha! I remember reading an interview with Quesadilla where his whole justification for OMD was that things in comics always change. But...I like your reasoning better.

I just miss MJ and hope she returns in a proper way. My only fix at the moment is reading RYV. And I was hoping that she was/is gonna show up in the new movies...

 

[Faith_Cassidy]

agreed...

and i see alot of people trying to justify it to themselves for they love this movie so much already (even without seeing it) that they can't really seem to be ok with "anything" being upsetting or something they got wrong.

there's alot of justificating going on.. but no one's really coming up with a good justification as to why this needed to go down in the first place... it really alienates long time MJ fans who've been begging for a faithful MJ for so long.. and have not once gotten it. which is ironic because i don't think the people doing all this "Forced" justification would be complaining if we got an accurate MJ at all.

but per usual. Mj fans get dumped on... it's been happening for a bit in the books (its also why i quit buying marvel comics all together), hell.. Tony's Pepper Pots in some ways is more MJ than any incarnation we've gotten (or almost got) on film.

the Joe Quesada era at marvel (which includes Fiege and many others) all can't stand her for some reason... never have been able to.

What's really ironic is the assertion that posters here are trying to justify anything to themselves because they love the movie already, (seriously?? talking about projecting) when most of the ranting and complaining and assuming in this thread is coming from posters who haven't even seen the movie themselves.

Personally, I don't feel the need to justify anything, nor come up with a reason for why tptb chose this particular route. As I've said before, none of us know...only Watts and Feige have the answer and they should most certainly clarify the Michelle = MJ twist, at the very least.

That said, some posters choosing to remain open minded or optimistic about said twist isn't tantamout to "forced" justification. I mean, the fact that we even have such a blatant "MJ" reference tells us that tptb want us to question who the character really is. That in itself is enough justification for wanting to see how this all unfolds.

i absolutely have no desire to wait for multiple films for MJ to evolve into "Mary Jane Watson" id much rather see her evolve from "Mary Jane Watson, the party girl facade" and evolve into "Mary Jane Watson-Parker" the down to earth real, human with layers, depth, and the heart that matches her strength.. while still being a fighter and a survivor with spunk

And that's fine but guess what?? It doesn't really matter what any of us desire at this point. lol I've long accepted that these movies won't give me exactly what I want all the time or even most of the time. The most important thing to me is whether or not I can enjoy said movies, despite any changes I may not be crazy about. If you can't accept them in this particular case, ok. I get it. Trust me, I've been there.

 

[Avenging Angel]

It really isn't about getting everything perfect, it's about the major detail. If Dunst's MJ wasn't so depressed, she'd be a perfect tribute, but she had the look and that's where it starts.

 

[mightiest_mortal]

Seen the movie.

Wasn't particularly happy with the reveal, but mostly because Michelle is actually a pretty great character in her own right. She's not in it much but she's a fun addition that gets some laughs.

She really didn't need to be "MJ".

Half the fun of the character is that she's so random and unpredictable. Once she confirms she's MJ it's kinda sad as you know her whole future.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

What's really ironic is the assertion that posters here are trying to justify anything to themselves because they love the movie already, (seriously?? talking about projecting) when most of the ranting and complaining and assuming in this thread is coming from posters who haven't even seen the movie themselves.

Personally, I don't feel the need to justify anything, nor come up with a reason for why tptb chose this particular route. As I've said before, none of us know...only Watts and Feige have the answer and they should most certainly clarify the Michelle = MJ twist, at the very least.

That said, some posters choosing to remain open minded or optimistic about said twist isn't tantamout to "forced" justification. I mean, the fact that we even have such a blatant "MJ" reference tells us that tptb want us to question who the character really is. That in itself is enough justification for wanting to see how this all unfolds.



And that's fine but guess what?? It doesn't really matter what any of us desire at this point. lol I've long accepted that these movies won't give me exactly what I want all the time or even most of the time. The most important thing to me is whether or not I can enjoy said movies, despite any changes I may not be crazy about. If you can't accept them in this particular case, ok. I get it. Trust me, I've been there.

it always matters what we want... because i'm not going to stop complaining about it and still push for the characters i want some day.

welcome to the forums. this is how they operate.

 

[X Knight]

it always matters what we want... because i'm not going to stop complaining about it and still push for the characters i want some day.

welcome to the forums. this is how they operate.

exactly.