The Flash who is savitar !?

[zenith16]

I got the impression that the time remnant fight is after Iris dies and that the remnants are probably needed to stop him from killing the rest of team flash or it just comes from pure rage obsessed tunnel vision to stopping him, and because they didn't know it didn't seem like a big deal but now that they do, either still do the remnants and treat it better or they find a different way to beat him one that breaks the loop since it has already been altered some due to barry finding out the how, who and why of Savitar.

the best way to stop is to not use the Remanent's at all . but is current day barry inthe know to realise this . does he realize that is what started it and when he went to the speed force to pick those Remanent's up from their realitys that one of them since they are Sentient that one would be regret full towards him.


Is he observant enough to have gotten this message this time around compared to what 2024 went through and didn't notice?

it would be best not to use the time remanent's . but what savitar is aim for is for barry to be in despair period. cause he thing that'll give birth to him self .

it like the writer will still have barry act dense and still see iris killed in front of him and he do something to change it.

there's also the better treatment of the time Remanent's. but it seem the writers won't let barry be bright enough to realize that if they are alive & sentient and from a reality formerly linked to his that have become separate. and those time Remanent may be just as dense.

 

[TheVileOne]

Whatever happens, Barry will have to keep altering time until it all works out, and Iris marries him.

 

[zenith16]

Whatever happens, Barry will have to keep altering time until it all works out, and Iris marries him.

sadly this is the cause of the problem . and he needs to stop that. just use the trap device, umm they are calling it the speed force buzzucka now since they found the female inventor earlier then they should have.

I'd say barry should use all the speedster's he knows. but jay's trapped in the speed force, and hasn't been seen or looked for since. (nice barry not looking for him.)


they need to find a way to keep savitar distracted and the other way is to not have barry know the rest of team flash/star lab team's plans he has to do his own thing while the other's plot something else. the point is savitar knows what he knows cause they are linked .

Current Barry shouldn't be apart of the strategy meetings (if you can all it that)


It's risky but it's better the mind wiping him.

 

[guitarsingerguy]

Yeah, I could see him not knowing Team Flash's plan possibly working to their advantage, but I think Caitlyn is gonna play a big part in saving the day as her redemption.

 

[Dark Raven]

in other word's he want's present day barry in despair to lead which he think will eventually to letting some from of him go down the path of evil

Why will that lead to evil Barry though? That will just lead to mope emo Barry from 2024 whom we saw a few weeks ago. And since he already saw what he became, and how he broke his promise to Iris to not look after Joe, he might avoid being mopey but might embrace family.

 

[Dark Raven]

sadly this is the cause of the problem . and he needs to stop that. just use the trap device, umm they are calling it the speed force buzzucka now since they found the female inventor earlier then they should have.

I'd say barry should use all the speedster's he knows. but jay's trapped in the speed force, and hasn't been seen or looked for since. (nice barry not looking for him.)



they need to find a way to keep savitar distracted and the other way is to not have barry know the rest of team flash/star lab team's plans he has to do his own thing while the other's plot something else. the point is savitar knows what he knows cause they are linked .

Current Barry shouldn't be apart of the strategy meetings (if you can all it that)


It's risky but it's better the mind wiping him.

They're already failing. The first thing they showed him when he got his memories back was the speed force bazooka. I immediately thought that this was the wrong thing to be doing as now Savitar would know about this.

 

[guitarsingerguy]

Why will that lead to evil Barry though? That will just lead to mope emo Barry from 2024 whom we saw a few weeks ago. And since he already saw what he became, and how he broke his promise to Iris to not look after Joe, he might avoid being mopey but might embrace family.

It's almost impossible to say. Savitar even said it himself. Cause and effect is a funny thing. He admitted that Barry killing himself MIGHT stop Savitar from ever existing, but there's no way to know for sure without doing it.

 

[zenith16]

It's almost impossible to say. Savitar even said it himself. Cause and effect is a funny thing. He admitted that Barry killing himself MIGHT stop Savitar from ever existing, but there's no way to know for sure without doing it.

that and savitar mentioned the fact of what happend to eddie would happen again and there's currently no fire storm to stop another vortex from collapsing what's present

here's the video .

[YT]Ywxv9wS6FnY[/YT]

 

[Dark Raven]

The solution:

Step One: Don't create time remnants when fighting Savitar.

Step Two: If Barry does create them, make sure they all die.

Step Three: If that fails, make sure to welcome the survivor into the family and love him like a brother or son.

Step Four: If that doesn't work, erase his memory.

 

[zenith16]

They're already failing. The first thing they showed him when he got his memories back was the speed force bazooka. I immediately thought that this was the wrong thing to be doing as now Savitar would know about this.

yep this is why I said formerly will the writer allow him to realize certain things prior? any way seriously they need to make a seprate plan from barry. tell him he need's to make plan of his own to distract savitar and even if they do sad face with iris and half the team. they need to make plan with out him. it's the only way.


I'm sure how they can include jessie, I 'd put her in my plan some how if they bothered to look for Jay (they really should have looked for ronnie too who know where he landed and if he's in a coma in some hospital )

or start feeding him misdirection. see this is the problem yeah barry's been fighting crime for a while now but truth be told this version isn't a strategist he hasn't any police training past his CSi work or any under /deep cover training at all .


I'm sorry what oliver offers is always too short and not something you'd see someone who should be trained in covert ops do ether . no matter how they like to push it in show.

barry needs a Micheal weston or the two jack bristol & Bauer training him . The only way to beat savitar at this point is they ether give Barry limited info which savitar pick's up from barry when ever he's squatting down in that armor of his looking like he's a a sleep. or feed him false info.


Sadly the writer's most likely won't let team flash think this way on their own. ...... but those are the only two options. mind wiping was a very poor chose. it was funny yes. those are two option's they have and they sorta (no they absolutely )blew it.

what ever esle they need to add plan wise Barry can't be in the know.

 

[TheGearMan]

The solution:

Step One: Don't create time remnants when fighting Savitar.

Step Two: If Barry does create them, make sure they all die.

Step Three: If that fails, make sure to welcome the survivor into the family and love him like a brother or son.

Step Four: If that doesn't work, erase his memory.

I've got a simpler one: send Barry to take Jay's place in the speed force. That way Jay, Wally, and Jessie can fight Savitar. Jay knows better than to make time remnants, and the other two don't know how.

On second thought, why fight him at all? If he's so linked to Barry that erasing Barry's memory in the present will erase Savitar's memory, then choosing not to fight him should result in him just, like, fading away.

Also, if erasing Barry's memory in the present will erase Savitar's memory, we also know that if Barry killed himself, Savitar should just go away.

 

[zenith16]

I've got a simpler one: send Barry to take Jay's place in the speed force. That way Jay, Wally, and Jessie can fight Savitar. Jay knows better than to make time remnants, and the other two don't know how.

On second thought, why fight him at all? If he's so linked to Barry that erasing Barry's memory in the present will erase Savitar's memory, then choosing not to fight him should result in him just, like, fading away.

Also, if erasing Barry's memory in the present will erase Savitar's memory, we also know that if Barry killed himself, Savitar should just go away.

yeah you mean jay wouldn't look for/ call other doubles from the speed force not create/ make.
inthe final episode of last season barry did disapear when racing zoom and came back with his time remanent.


they didn't show that with the video I put up cause they were short for time . but the time Remanent's already exist. there's no literal creation from the speedster
.
but past that it's a good plan.


As to the last sentence
I don't they want that second singularity showing like it did after eddy did with eobard. sadly barry did change time alot to get to this point and it will likely show up again if he play's the death game with Savitar.

just don't misuse the time Remanent's don't call them for that mission at all. they have their own lives they aren't disposable. and they need to make sure Joe and others don't mistreat him. Get it in their head's not to do that.

The point is team flash has to not act dense or selfish it's a tall order it seems. oy .

 

[TheGearMan]

they didn't show that with the video I put up cause they were short for time . but the time Remanent's already exist. there's no literal creation from the speedster

That's not how I remember them explaining it. I'm pretty sure they've even used the term "make" (or something similar) in the show before.

I always thought Barry went back in time a few minutes and then there'd be two of them. Like when he went back in time from season 2 to season 1.

Which I know contradicts with when he would time travel in season 1 and the other Barry would just fade away... but I figure that's just inconsistency in writing.

That how I remember them explaining it, anyway.

 

[zenith16]

Originally Posted by TheGearMan
That's not how I remember them explaining it. I'm pretty sure they've even used the term "make" (or something similar) in the show before.

I always thought Barry went back in time a few minutes and then there'd be two of them. Like when he went back in time from season 2 to season 1.

Which I know contradicts with when he would time travel in season 1 and the other Barry would just fade away... but I figure that's just inconsistency in writing.
That how I remember them explaining it, anyway.

yeah it mean's the writers are overly contradictive.


they made this part of the wikia article


Time remnants[FONT=&quot], also known as [/FONT]timeline remnants[FONT=&quot], or [/FONT]temporal duplicates[FONT=&quot] as dubbed by [/FONT]Harrison Wells[FONT=&quot], are a phenomenon that occurs as the result of [/FONT]meta-humanspeedsters'time travel abilities[FONT=&quot]. Due to possible time ruptures and changes brought by the speedsters traveling (and/or staying) further back in time or even a speedster's death, the time remnants are preserved via the [/FONT]Speed Force[FONT=&quot] as if in their original timelines, having to appear in the new timeline in order to prevent further time paradoxes.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The mechanics regarding the appearances of time remnants of other speedsters, such as those of Hunter Zolomon and Barry Allen, are not explained in such a complex manner as Thawne's, but it can be presumed that their origins are similar: they are the remains, or "remnants" of an aborted timeline. However, it is noted that the appearance of these time remnants in the current timeline requires some sort of action from the speedsters themselves. All that is known is that after Barry Allen decided to go to Earth Two, Hunter Zolomon created a time remnant of himself and convinced that remnant to die on Earth One before the eyes of Team Flash, ensuring that Barry would want to increase his speed and avenge the man that took on the name of Jay Garrick.[2][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Time remnants, unlike, for example, the "clones" of Multiplex, seemed to act completely separate from the "main" or "current" version of the person, and required convincing to allow themselves to be sacrificed.[2][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is unknown what would happen to a time remnant if they realized that the timeline they come from no longer exists, or that they can't exist any longer themselves either. Presumably, they would dissipate, like what happened to a 2015 version of Barry Allen, after he saw the 2016 version of Barry Allen save Nora Allen and defeat Eobard Thawne, changing the timeline.[/FONT]

Behind the scenes

• While in "The Reverse-Flash Returns" they are referred to as "timeline remnants", in every other instance they are called "time remnants".
• In the DC comics, something similar to time remnants often appears in speedster and time travel stories. However, the closest example to the one shown in the TV series would be the appearance of a younger version of Eobard Thawne during "The Return of Barry Allen" comic arc, that happened as if it was his very first time travel attempt, long after Barry Allen has killed Professor Zoom in defense of his fiancée. After undergoing surgery that has given him the appearance identical to that of Barry Allen, Thawne traveled to the past to meet and befriend his idol, only to appear later than he intended, and to see the Flash Museum's exposition on him detailing his appearance as the villainous Reverse-Flash and subsequent death at the hands of his idol, Barry Allen. Realizing that his idol was the one to kill him, Thawne experienced PTSD and convinced himself that he is not actually Eobard Thawne, but rather Barry Allen reborn. Even after Wally West, the Flash, showed him the truth, Thawne wanted to stay in West's era, to ensure that he never travels through time and thus never allows Barry Allen to kill him in the first place. To keep the timeline intact and preserve Barry's memory from Thawne's continuous villainous actions in his name, West had to trick the Reverse-Flash into reclaiming his identity and being sent back to the future, ensuring that Thawne would still go back to Barry's era and fight him as the Reverse-Flash, like he was supposed to.
• It can be argued that in "Flash Back" we see Barry Allen himself become a time remnant, whose time-traveling had to happen to ensure that the current timeline, with Hartley Rathaway as an ally of Team Flash and the creator of a weapon against the Time Wraiths, would exist, and the old timeline, with Hartley as an unrepentant villain, would be changed. Cisco Ramon's knowledge of the Flash's white chest symbol also came differently in the the pre-altered version of the timeline, though, ironically, also due to Barry's meeting with a time remnant from 2024.

[FONT=&quot]
source: http://arrow.wikia.com/wiki/Time_remnant[/FONT]


so that most of the fan base would calm down last year.


and it seem's they can't choose the right words in show. it's bad habit like when they had poor caitlin all over the place on if she cured zoom or not I question ever time she explained .

 

[Dark Raven]

If both Zoom and Reverse Flash have created time remnants before, and even convinced the remnant to sacrifice themselves, why have none of these remnants ever rebelled and gone on their own path? One of them could break away and decide to become a hero instead.

For that matter, how come Reverse Flash has never pretended to be a time remnant of himself who has seen the error of his ways and wants to stop the original, thereby trying to gain Barry's trust?

 

[zenith16]

If both Zoom and Reverse Flash have created time remnants before, and even convinced the remnant to sacrifice themselves, why have none of these remnants ever rebelled and gone on their own path? One of them could break away and decide to become a hero instead.

For that matter, how come Reverse Flash has never pretended to be a time remnant of himself who has seen the error of his ways and wants to stop the original, thereby trying to gain Barry's trust?

the one that died that caitlin kept flip flopping on if she cured him strayed a bit.

 

[TheGearMan]

the time remnants are preserved via the Speed Force as if in their original timelines, having to appear in the new timeline in order to prevent further time paradoxes.

But that doesn't say that the remnants exist in the speed force, it just says that the speed force preserves them, preventing them from fading away like the Flash in season 1 time travel.

 

[zenith16]

But that doesn't say that the remnants exist in the speed force, it just says that the speed force preserves them, preventing them from fading away like the Flash in season 1 time travel.

in the link at the top as well says inred


Time remnants[FONT=&quot], also known as [/FONT]timeline remnants[FONT=&quot], or [/FONT]temporal duplicates[FONT=&quot] as dubbed by [/FONT]Harrison Wells[FONT=&quot], are a phenomenon that occurs as the result of [/FONT]meta-humanspeedsters'time travel abilities[FONT=&quot]. Due to possible time ruptures and changes brought by the speedsters traveling (and/or staying) further back in time or even a speedster's death, the time remnants are preserved via the [/FONT]Speed Force[FONT=&quot] as if in their original timelines, having to appear in the new timeline in order to prevent further time paradoxes.


[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]source: http://arrow.wikia.com/wiki/Time_remnant


[/FONT] it means they have now be come alternate due to the speedster actions. this is also a theory in a name called orange . http://orange.wikia.com/wiki/Letter_01


certain action diverge into split paths create two different reality's separate from each other
[/FONT]

 

[guitarsingerguy]

I just read an interesting theory about Savitar actually turning out to be the hero of the season. I mean...the theory made zero sense, and I don't see any way it could turn out to work out that way, but it would be the most interesting thing to happen with this season for sure. It would certainly break the same cycle of evil speedster that has ties to Team Flash turning out to be big bad. And what do we think Jesse Quick's part is gonna be in all this? We still don't know what Savitar meant when he informed her he had plans for her.

 

[metaphysician]

I assume that when Zoom created time remnants, he always made sure they were far enough back, and thus weak enough, that he could just kill them. I mean, its not like he wasn't a psychopathic monster.

Reverse Flash. . . I actually can't remember him creating any time remnants outside of the LoT season finale. Since a remnant is just a portion of your timeline looped around, he could always have just planned to put them back in their "proper" spot once the battle was over. Plus, it was a moment of desperation, and Thawne *did* care about the outcome.

 

[Dark Raven]

I assume that when Zoom created time remnants, he always made sure they were far enough back, and thus weak enough, that he could just kill them. I mean, its not like he wasn't a psychopathic monster.

Reverse Flash. . . I actually can't remember him creating any time remnants outside of the LoT season finale. Since a remnant is just a portion of your timeline looped around, he could always have just planned to put them back in their "proper" spot once the battle was over. Plus, it was a moment of desperation, and Thawne *did* care about the outcome.

Didn't Reverse Flash do that in season 1 to appear in two places at once so that he could appear to be Harrison Wells watching? Or was that a different method he used?

 

[metaphysician]

Nah, that was just creating an afterimage. He didn't split his timeline, he just moved so fast as to appear in two places at once.

 

[zenith16]

Nah, that was just creating an afterimage. He didn't split his timeline, he just moved so fast as to appear in two places at once.

Didn't Reverse Flash do that in season 1 to appear in two places at once so that he could appear to be Harrison Wells watching? Or was that a different method he used?

Eobard also used holograhic tech too prior to that which is what cisco found remember cisco was obsessed with how his force field prison should have held and he kept testing til he looked and looked went to the engine it's self and found a projection device.

and to back it up they also have in the wikia that eobard used this in his biograhy


Quote:

The Reverse-Flash slaughters Eddie's taskforce.
[FONT=&quot]Later S.T.A.R. Labs orchestrated the trap using the tachyon prototype and lured the Reverse-Flash in, aided by Eddie's taskforce.[22] But Eobard rigged a hologram of himself as Reverse-Flash, that would answer only to him. Once the hologram was active, Eobard, Joe, Eddie and his taskforce went down stairs to "confront" it. As Eobard addressed his hologram, the force-field appeared to fail as nobody was inside for it to stabilize, Eobard rushed into the force-field so fast that no one had time to think and were all frozen, making it look like the Reverse-Flash pulled him into the field, and trapping himself inside. In the field, Eobard created a lifelike speed mirage of himself then suiting up as Reverse-Flash in the place of his hologram and repeatedly punched his after image, making it appear to everyone else that Reverse-Flash was trying to kill him.[11] After the field disappeared when Joe sabotaged the machine, Reverse-Flash grabs the device and takes it to his secret room then reappears in the basement, and while still bouncing back and forth to maintain the speed-mirage of Eobard. Reverse-Flash kills Eddie's task-force in seconds without any effort but hesitates when he approaches Eddie, shoving the detective to the side rather than killing (since this would risk his own existence), and attacks Joe.[/FONT]
Reverse-Flash beats Flash.
[FONT=&quot]Reverse-Flash reminds Joe he was warned but before he can kill him Flash intercepts him and drags him outside. However, Reverse-Flash again proved superior to Flash, but he was timely stopped by a seemingly alive Ronnie, now a pyrokinetic meta-human. Reverse-Flash vowed their fight wasn't over and ran off. Arriving back in time to take the place of his speed mirage Eobard was tended to by Caitlin and Cisco who profusely apologies for the force-field failing. Though Eobard assured Cisco it wasn't his fault he expressed annoyance towards them for not informing him of Ronnie's survival, but assures Caitlin that they will find Ronnie and bring him home. Later Eobard place the tachyon prototype on his Reverse-Flash suit and while watching it harness it's power, says "Merry Christmas" with his distorted voice as his wounds healed.[22][/FONT]

source:
http://arrow.wikia.com/wiki/Eobard_Thawne


in actuality his speed was used to trick Eddie and joe during that trap after the project device ciso later found fails was just to have him self as Harrison well's beaten up and blured back in place

no overly fancy speed trick be side the miriages after holograhic tech fell apart be side making his body for a few second have mirages and returned. he used tech as well .

 

[Syncos]

this actually makes more sense than what was actually revealed.

I agree here.

They could have gone kinda "Superboy Prime-y" with it. Have 'dead' Barry trapped in the speed force, watching Barry screw up. Getting more and more angry, thinking he sacrificed himself for nothing, that maybe HE was the Barry Allen that should have survived.

I think I would be totally on board with that.

 

[TheRedWraith]

Except then the reason why Savitar as he is, is so tough to beat is because he comes from the future and as a result has all of Barry's memories is nullified, if he was the season 2 Flash then he wouldn't have that and would be much easier to beat.