The Flash who is savitar !?

[zenith16]

The Flash: Savitar's Real Comic Twin Wasn't a Villain

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Better have a rejected evil twin than he himself be the villain.
Barrytar is kinda like Scar in this scenario, only that lion voiced by Alfred wasn't rejected.

 

[Wildcard]

Some will disagree but I at least find the show's take on Savitar to be far more interesting than anything he's ever really done in the comics.

 

[ZenTheAvenger]

One thing I don't get with this Savitar loop, shouldn't there be two Savitars around at some point?

1. Savitar kills Iris

2. Future Barry fights Savitar

3. Future Barry uses time remnant to trap Savitar in the speed force

4. The Time Remnant gets shunned, goes back in time and becomes Savitar

5. Savitar from step 3 escapes the speed force, kills Iris (as we are seeing his plans develop now), causing Future Barry to decline but manage to stop Savitar by using a time remnant to help trap him in the speed force.


But what about the Time Remnant when he becomes Savitar in step 4? He is free, he isn't trapped in the speed force. This part doesn't link up unless I'm missing something?

Where does he go? Because the Savitar we are seeing now is the one who was trapped in the speed force by future Barry? And should be the one who Future Barry fights after he kills Iris?!

 

[zenith16]

One thing I don't get with this Savitar loop, shouldn't there be two Savitars around at some point?

1. Savitar kills Iris

2. Future Barry fights Savitar

3. Future Barry uses time remnant to trap Savitar in the speed force

4. The Time Remnant gets shunned, goes back in time and becomes Savitar

5. Savitar from step 3 escapes the speed force, kills Iris (as we are seeing his plans develop now), causing Future Barry to decline but manage to stop Savitar by using a time remnant to help trap him in the speed force.


But what about the Time Remnant when he becomes Savitar in step 4? He is free, he isn't trapped in the speed force. This part doesn't link up unless I'm missing something?

Where does he go? Because the Savitar we are seeing now is the one who was trapped in the speed force by future Barry? And should be the one who Future Barry fights after he kills Iris?!

here's the thing when he went to visit future barry in 20 24 and people keep for getting what future barry told the current one . it Took future barry 5 year's after his iris's death to trap savitar. with the battle with the small army of time Remanent he brought prior to that capture.

So it took him a 5 years tops find that scientist that HR is falling in love with currently 5 years after to have the device made after the battle to save iris and with an army of his past selves that failed to save her before that 5 year.


right now currently they changed things slightly cause

hmmmmm and your right about 4 un less they are saying that time remanent is savitar ais is still around some where. hmmmm

 

[ZenTheAvenger]

Here is a timeline I have drawn up:

As you can see, Labels 1, 4, 5 and 6 line up perfectly with what we have seen this season.

The problems lie with Labels 2 and 3. How does Label 3 match up to the rest of the time line?!

The only logical answer is that once the TR has become Savitar in Label 3, he goes back to the future and fights Future Barry and a TR, and gets trapped in the Speed Force. That makes sense.

But then what about Label 6?! What happens to that Savitar who has killed Iris to ensure he is created? This part doesn't fit the loop.

 

[zenith16]

Here is a timeline I have drawn up:

As you can see, Labels 1, 4, 5 and 6 line up perfectly with what we have seen this season.

The problems lie with Labels 2 and 3. How does Label 3 match up to the rest of the time line?!

The only logical answer is that once the TR has become Savitar in Label 3, he goes back to the future and fights Future Barry and a TR, and gets trapped in the Speed Force. That makes sense.

But then what about Label 6?! What happens to that Savitar who has killed Iris to ensure he is created? This part doesn't fit the loop.

the loops in flux and changed now between what happened with future of 2024 and and current barry, though. just withthem picking up H.R.'s new girl friend earlier then they should.


But I get what you mean. I'm also guess he might have built his savitar suit in the time period of 2024. if he had done it in the time period where he left that version of barry might have notice he have to get certain tech for that suit . so there no way he got parts in the present day of 2017 during future 2024 barry time. hmmm

 

[Jedi Arrow]

One thing I don't get with this Savitar loop, shouldn't there be two Savitars around at some point?

1. Savitar kills Iris

2. Future Barry fights Savitar

3. Future Barry uses time remnant to trap Savitar in the speed force

4. The Time Remnant gets shunned, goes back in time and becomes Savitar

5. Savitar from step 3 escapes the speed force, kills Iris (as we are seeing his plans develop now), causing Future Barry to decline but manage to stop Savitar by using a time remnant to help trap him in the speed force.


But what about the Time Remnant when he becomes Savitar in step 4? He is free, he isn't trapped in the speed force. This part doesn't link up unless I'm missing something?

Where does he go? Because the Savitar we are seeing now is the one who was trapped in the speed force by future Barry? And should be the one who Future Barry fights after he kills Iris?!

Just...don't think too far into it, yeah? You'll go nuttier than Savitar.

So, couldn't the Savitar from step 4 be the one trapped in the Speed Force? When you say he was "shunned," couldn't he have been left in the Speed Force and that was his imprisonment? Something like that. I don't know; I'm not completely caught up with all the episodes so I can't make a complete picture yet, obviously.

 

[mqg96]

I knew it was a bootstrap paradox or infinite loop like Cisco explained on the board last episode. However, I didn't expect it to be this time remnant twist who 2024 Barry explained a couple episodes ago.

Most people predicted the time remnant from the season 2 finale which I knew couldn't have been true because he died by sacrificing his body and energy to reverse the pulse, which saved the multiverse from Zoom. His body painfully disintegrated, similar to Infinite Crisis on Earths from the comics or whatever you call it.

What some people saw coming, but not most people, is a time remnant future Barry created while defeating Savitar, and when future Barry created a bunch of time remnants Savitar killed all of them except one. That one was abandoned by team Flash as the "fake Barry" and decided to go back in time and become a speedster God leading his acolytes.

TV show Savitar/Future (time remnant) Barry is basically Cobalt Blue (Barry's adopted twin), Savitar (from the comics), and the Future Flash story all combined into one. Instead of it being Barry's twin brother being jealous of Barry having his life, it's Barry's time remnant from the future who's jealous Barry has "everything" from him. Savitar's suit is made out of cobalt tungsten like Cobalt Blue's suit from the comics, and it's used as a speed force enhancer to help Barry go so much faster for his lightning to turn white (like the Future Flash suit from the comics).

Now this is what I'm really curious about, why is Future Barry's lightning still yellow/orange out of the suit but it turns light blue & white when he gets in the suit? Is it like a tachyon device or something or does it protect him from the scars? I still think Future Barry can run fast enough to make his lightning white but if he does it without being in his suit, then his body would burn off or something. Kinda like how fake Jay/Zoom back in season 2 used the Velocity drug and ran at a certain speed to keep his lighting yellow so he would fool team Flash, but really Zoom could run faster than that so his lightning would turn blue.

 

[zenith16]

I knew it was a bootstrap paradox or infinite loop like Cisco explained on the board last episode. However, I didn't expect it to be this time remnant twist who 2024 Barry explained a couple episodes ago.

Most people predicted the time remnant from the season 2 finale which I knew couldn't have been true because he died by sacrificing his body and energy to reverse the pulse, which saved the multiverse from Zoom. His body painfully disintegrated, similar to Infinite Crisis on Earths from the comics or whatever you call it.

What some people saw coming, but not most people, is a time remnant future Barry created while defeating Savitar, and when future Barry created a bunch of time remnants Savitar killed all of them except one. That one was abandoned by team Flash as the "fake Barry" and decided to go back in time and become a speedster God leading his acolytes.

you don't creat them you pick them and that's it. they are part of the multiverse oas so as you devaite from a certain action and change current event they become alternate and the time force is has them as recorded events . they are ina gate way via the time for via alternate event that was formerly part of your history but are not alternate universe to it self.


ok you mean barry created him the same way the joker was created in the burton movies when batman knocked him into the vat of chemicals . I must Remember that.

Now this is what I'm really curious about, why is Future Barry's lightning still yellow/orange out of the suit but it turns light blue & white when he gets in the suit? Is it like a tachyon device or something or does it protect him from the scars? I still think Future Barry can run fast enough to make his lightning white but if he does it without being in his suit, then his body would burn off or something. Kinda like how fake Jay/Zoom back in season 2 used the Velocity drug and ran at a certain speed to keep his lighting yellow so he would fool team Flash, but really Zoom could run faster than that so his lightning would turn blue.

he's running at a reduced speed with out the armor other wise he's toast. the armor blue show's the signs of ether burning out like we saw with another former speadsters barry that used velocity 6 called trajectory or she trapped inthe time force as I suspect .

 

[Travesty]

Here is a timeline I have drawn up:

As you can see, Labels 1, 4, 5 and 6 line up perfectly with what we have seen this season.

The problems lie with Labels 2 and 3. How does Label 3 match up to the rest of the time line?!

The only logical answer is that once the TR has become Savitar in Label 3, he goes back to the future and fights Future Barry and a TR, and gets trapped in the Speed Force. That makes sense.

But then what about Label 6?! What happens to that Savitar who has killed Iris to ensure he is created? This part doesn't fit the loop.

lol, every time travel story is going to have contradictions in it, because the very notion of time travel is a paradox.

 

[zenith16]

lol, every time travel story is going to have contradictions in it, because the very notion of time travel is a paradox.

It's ether they didn't fully cover all their base's here cause they need more time to develop the story in stead of doing with in the the season they are airing thing at. or it's a set up for something. Hopefully it's the latter.

 

[mqg96]

you don't creat them you pick them and that's it. they are part of the multiverse oas so as you devaite from a certain action and change current event they become alternate and the time force is has them as recorded events . they are ina gate way via the time for via alternate event that was formerly part of your history but are not alternate universe to it self.

Did you not pay attention to the beginning of this past episode? A time remnant is created when a speedster goes back in time a few seconds and creates a duplicate of themselves. The speedster who time traveled back a few seconds comes out of a portal and tells their past self to not travel, this now makes the future speedster who time traveled a remnant from a timeline that no longer exists. This was also explained on 2x23 "The Race of His Life" when Barry mentioned that he traveled back in time and created a remnant to save the multiverse, just like Zoom did it to fool team Flash when they were on Earth 2.

Time remnants don't come from the multiverse, I don't know where you got that from. Time traveling across one earth doesn't affect other earths, which explains why on 3x03 "Magenta" Harry Wells and Jesse Quick could remember the pre-Flashpoint timeline before Barry created Flashpoint, since neither of them had ever been in the speed lab.

 

[zenith16]

Originally Posted by mqg96
Did you not pay attention to the beginning of this past episode? A time remnant is created when a speedster goes back in time a few seconds and creates a duplicate of themselves. The speedster who time traveled back a few seconds comes out of a portal and tells their past self to not travel, this now makes the future speedster who time traveled a remnant from a timeline that no longer exists. This was also explained on 3x23 when Barry mentioned that he traveled back in time and created a remnant, just like Zoom did it to fool team Flash when they were on Earth 2.

Time remnants don't come from the multiverse, I don't know where you got that from. Time traveling across one earth doesn't affect other earths, which explains why on 3x03 "Magenta" Harry Wells and Jesse Quick could remember the pre-Flashpoint timeline before Barry created Flashpoint, since neither of them had ever been in the speed lab.

I did pay attention from the show from harr2 2 Explaination and what the writer put up in the wikia of the arrow verse. and they put this up as the extended explanation awiththe link to the books


Time remnants[FONT=&quot], also known as [/FONT]timeline remnants[FONT=&quot], or [/FONT]temporal duplicates[FONT=&quot] as dubbed by [/FONT]Harrison Wells[FONT=&quot], are a phenomenon that occurs as the result of [/FONT]meta-humanspeedsters'time travel abilities[FONT=&quot]. Due to possible time ruptures and changes brought by the speedsters traveling (and/or staying) further back in time or even a speedster's death, the time remnants are preserved via the [/FONT]Speed Force[FONT=&quot] as if in their original timelines, having to appear in the new timeline in order to prevent further time paradoxes.


[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The mechanics regarding the appearances of time remnants of other speedsters, such as those of Hunter Zolomon and Barry Allen, are not explained in such a complex manner as Thawne's, but it can be presumed that their origins are similar: they are the remains, or "remnants" of an aborted timeline. However, it is noted that the appearance of these time remnants in the current timeline requires some sort of action from the speedsters themselves. All that is known is that after Barry Allen decided to go to Earth Two, Hunter Zolomon created a time remnant of himself and convinced that remnant to die on Earth One before the eyes of Team Flash, ensuring that Barry would want to increase his speed and avenge the man that took on the name of Jay Garrick.[2][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Time remnants, unlike, for example, the "clones" of Multiplex, seemed to act completely separate from the "main" or "current" version of the person, and required convincing to allow themselves to be sacrificed.[2][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is unknown what would happen to a time remnant if they realized that the timeline they come from no longer exists, or that they can't exist any longer themselves either. Presumably, they would dissipate, like what happened to a 2015 version of Barry Allen, after he saw the 2016 version of Barry Allen save Nora Allen and defeat Eobard Thawne, changing the timeline.[/FONT]

Behind the scenes

• While in "The Reverse-Flash Returns" they are referred to as "timeline remnants", in every other instance they are called "time remnants".
• In the DC comics, something similar to time remnants often appears in speedster and time travel stories. However, the closest example to the one shown in the TV series would be the appearance of a younger version of Eobard Thawne during "The Return of Barry Allen" comic arc, that happened as if it was his very first time travel attempt, long after Barry Allen has killed Professor Zoom in defense of his fiancée. After undergoing surgery that has given him the appearance identical to that of Barry Allen, Thawne traveled to the past to meet and befriend his idol, only to appear later than he intended, and to see the Flash Museum's exposition on him detailing his appearance as the villainous Reverse-Flash and subsequent death at the hands of his idol, Barry Allen. Realizing that his idol was the one to kill him, Thawne experienced PTSD and convinced himself that he is not actually Eobard Thawne, but rather Barry Allen reborn. Even after Wally West, the Flash, showed him the truth, Thawne wanted to stay in West's era, to ensure that he never travels through time and thus never allows Barry Allen to kill him in the first place. To keep the timeline intact and preserve Barry's memory from Thawne's continuous villainous actions in his name, West had to trick the Reverse-Flash into reclaiming his identity and being sent back to the future, ensuring that Thawne would still go back to Barry's era and fight him as the Reverse-Flash, like he was supposed to.
• It can be argued that in "Flash Back" we see Barry Allen himself become a time remnant, whose time-traveling had to happen to ensure that the current timeline, with Hartley Rathaway as an ally of Team Flash and the creator of a weapon against the Time Wraiths, would exist, and the old timeline, with Hartley as an unrepentant villain, would be changed. Cisco Ramon's knowledge of the Flash's white chest symbol also came differently in the the pre-altered version of the timeline, though, ironically, also due to Barry's meeting with a time remnant from 2024.

[FONT=&quot]
source: http://arrow.wikia.com/wiki/Time_remnant[/FONT]

 

[mqg96]

I di payattent from the show from harr 2 Explaination and whatthe writer pput up inthe wikia of the arrow verse. and they put this up as the extended explanation awiththe link to the books

Honestly when Harrison Wells explained this on the board back in season 2 I don't think he explained it well enough. The Reverse Flash time remnant from 2x11 "Reverse Flash Returns" isn't the same type of time remnant that Zoom or Barry created. That's another definition for a time remnant that was preserved by the speed force to keep the timeline intact with how events play out.

Okay maybe I was too brief there. When Reverse Flash killed Barry's mother and stayed in this timeline for 15 years, he had to create our Barry Allen as the Flash who grew up without his mother. Due to his actions and how things played out. This caused Eddie Thawne to shoot himself, erasing Reverse Flash from existence (Eobard Thawne), and this caused the singularity to open up in the sky trying to erase the timeline, however, after Ronnie/Firestorm sacrificed himself to stop the singularity, the timeline stayed safe and now became a living Grandfather Paradox.

So the speed force is like in order for our Barry Allen to become the Flash due to Eobard Thawne's actions, the past remnants of his life must be protected by the speed force, which is why he appeared on 2x11 "Reverse Flash Returns." He was also the same remnant who went with Barry through Flashpoint and went to Legends of Tomorrow, but since he was pulled out of his timeline past Eddie Thawne's death, the Black Flash went after him.

So the speed force protects infinite Eobard Thawne/Reverse Flash time remnants so he could eventually kill Barry's mother and do his actions for 15 years so our Flash TV show could be created. This isn't the same type of time remnant that's created by going back in time a few seconds making duplicates of yourself like Zoom or Barry did. Honestly I think the show didn't explain this well enough.

Oh, and the original 2024 Barry who got Barry out of the house as a little kid, or the one who stopped our Barry from saving his mom back on the season 1 finale, he counts as a time remnant too since he's from an erased timeline, but those actions still had to play out in order for our Barry to not be killed by Reverse Flash as a little boy.

 

[zenith16]

he didn't explain all to the best of show abilty ( due to their formula of how the writers do their stories with in the season they are airing) that the show aired it. it was a mess and the writers of the show went to the wikia to re explain it all.


Just watching the show with earth 2 harry explanation is a mess and other's have told them this. So they had to put more details . while they know there those of the fan base that read comic's that can explain it too . it will confuse too many other's that don't have buddies that act like my self to explain it some other's on here. and they want their Explanation to stick instead of some other from the fan base that don't get what they were doing to make thing's up themselves, that they didn't explain them selves.

So they Reexplained and got some the better writer's from the comics to provide them with the books and they put the better details in that wikia last year.

it was also due to them seeing fan complaint's about time Remanent being used so much last year all over the web at the end of the season .

 

[ZenTheAvenger]

lol, every time travel story is going to have contradictions in it, because the very notion of time travel is a paradox.

As you can see from the timeline I posted though, this is a pretty major plot hole if they don't cover it.

The loop doesn't currently make any sense because the Time Remnant after he becomes Savitar doesn't fit in to what they are saying.

We have no idea what happened when the Time Remnant went back and became Savitar. He got his acolytes etc, that's fine but then what?

He must surely have gone back to the future to fight Future Barry and get trapped in the Speed Force for the loop to make any sense but in that case the Savitar we are seeing now (he's escape the Speed Force), he must have a different destiny after killing Iris. We have no idea what that destiny is.

The Savitar killing Iris is the one who has escaped the Speed Force, having been trapped by Future Barry and the Time Remnant. Therefore this can't be the Savitar who then gets trapped in the Speed Force again?! Because the Time Remnant has to become Savitar and he is free from the Speed Force!

 

[zenith16]

it was also due to them seeing fan complaint's about time Remanent being used so much last year all over the web .

here's details on [FONT=&quot]

Most important Read this >>[/FONT]Appendix of Alternate Realities

and look for
[FONT=&quot]Key:[/FONT]

Altered by Time Travel

• Multiverse Flashes

[FONT=&quot]Time & Hypertime

Time travel, alternate universes, parallel worlds and Hypertime in the DC Universe


all from comic's reference site on the flash . point being alternate realities can be created from time travel or reality manipulators. marvel has this same thing too. which is how the age of apoclypes started and it 's a reality it's self .

The speed force seems to also be a Nexus of reality's among other things. As marvel would put it, where you can enter other former reality's . and there's an equalant of time Remanent in the astral plane too though that's for both for energy users that have reached their true potential and psionic/telepathic beings where the MU involved. but there are copys / versions of certain heroes there too .
[/FONT]

 

[The Caped Knight]

this actually makes more sense than what was actually revealed.

 

[Dark Raven]

When Barry fights Savitar, why doesn't he just not create any time remnants to defeat him but find another way instead? If there are no time remnants created in the first place, then there's no one for Savitar to leave alive who gets shunned and then travels back in time.

 

[Herolee10]

When Barry fights Savitar, why doesn't he just not create any time remnants to defeat him but find another way instead? If there are no time remnants created in the first place, then there's no one for Savitar to leave alive who gets shunned and then travels back in time.

I think Savitar is banking on current Barry becoming evil himself as a result of losing Iris. So even if he didn't create a time remnant, by losing Iris, he still goes rogue later on.

 

[zenith16]

When Barry fights Savitar, why doesn't he just not create any time remnants to defeat him but find another way instead? If there are no time remnants created in the first place, then there's no one for Savitar to leave alive who gets shunned and then travels back in time.

the right words would be pick up but the answer why is simple . Barry (or (future barry) himself's mind is pre occupied with one thing iris's life her dieing in his arms. so it's likely he didn't the connection right there and then. most people would see that and make the connection ether in that situation he's in.

 

[zenith16]

I think Savitar is banking on current Barry becoming evil himself as a result of losing Iris. So even if he didn't create a time remnant, by losing Iris, he still goes rogue later on.

in other word's he want's present day barry in despair to lead which he think will eventually to letting some from of him go down the path of evil

 

[TheRedWraith]

I got the impression that the time remnant fight is after Iris dies and that the remnants are probably needed to stop him from killing the rest of team flash or it just comes from pure rage obsessed tunnel vision to stopping him, and because they didn't know it didn't seem like a big deal but now that they do, either still do the remnants and treat it better or they find a different way to beat him one that breaks the loop since it has already been altered some due to barry finding out the how, who and why of Savitar.

 

[Avenging Angel]

Here comes the headache.