Why I like the Avengers

[gildea]

Wasn't there an issue recently, half of which consisted of some fiery guy falling to Earth? Literally, half the issue was a page with one splash image of the guy flying through space, then coming up on Earth, then falling through the atmosphere, then crashing, etc. That really pissed me off. It would've pissed me off more if I'd bought the issue, but still, I was pissed for those who did buy the issue.

Yup.

It was silly

Bendis did accept the criticism and said he won't do it again.

 

[rjb182]

I dunno, I just like that there's a book that spotlights probably my three favorite characters these days-- Spidey, Wolvie, and Iron Man-- all at once.

Yeah, that's superficial and I can totally see how fans of the classic Avengers would be upset to have the book changed. For what it's worth, I do think there should be a title out there that appeals to people who liked that team dynamic.

But if you think about it, a book like NA should have happened long before now. Why WOULDN'T Marvel want to do a book featuring all their most popular characters, ala JLA? Isn't that just good business sense? And if done creatively-- I will admit that the 5 splash pages in a row were a big misstep, but otherwise I don't think the writing's that bad-- there's nothing wrong with the idea.

Heck, I'm just surprised they didn't find a way to shoehorn Hulk and Daredevil onto the team while they were at it... Marvel actually showed some restraint, if you think about it like that.

 

[roach]

Yeah, that's superficial and I can totally see how fans of the classic Avengers would be upset to have the book changed. For what it's worth, I do think there should be a title out there that appeals to people who liked that team dynamic.

But if you think about it, a book like NA should have happened long before now. Why WOULDN'T Marvel want to do a book featuring all their most popular characters, ala JLA? Isn't that just good business sense? And if done creatively-- I will admit that the 5 splash pages in a row were a big misstep, but otherwise I don't think the writing's that bad-- there's nothing wrong with the idea.

and that is where Marvel failed. They could have created a team with all their popular characters and called it the Champions and left the Avengers as they are. The Avengers wasnt faltering or failing. They were as popular as ever. To toss aside over 30 years of history is crazy. I am seeing a big desire where ever I go to read an old school Avengers book. The fact that this thread has lasted this long without going off track seems to display this. At least when Morrison took over New X-men Marvel gave those who didnt like his view two other books to read. There are literally hundreds of Avengers that are doing nothing right now. Put them in a book and call it Westcoast Avengers

 

[3dman27]

good idea since the name champions was found to be rightfully held by a role playin game company

 

[roach]

Marvel also has the rights to the name as they have a team named The Champions

 

[Grim Goblin]

to me, the problem with NA isn't the roster but the failure to capture the mood of what an Avengers book should be IMO. See, I've been following the Avengers for years (on and off) and I've enjoyed stories that had (again, IMO)a roster far worse than what we have right now. But the other line-ups, even when they were mostly street level heroes, had an element of grandeur that fitted the team well.

I thought the NA would be a good launching point for me to get back into Avengers but I didn't need to finish the first arc before knowing this wasn't going to feel like an Avengers book.

 

[gildea]

to me, the problem with NA isn't the roster but the failure to capture the mood of what an Avengers book should be IMO. See, I've been following the Avengers for years (on and off) and I've enjoyed stories that had (again, IMO)a roster far worse than what we have right now. But the other line-ups, even when they were mostly street level heroes, had an element of grandeur that fitted the team well.

I thought the NA would be a good launching point for me to get back into Avengers but I didn't need to finish the first arc before knowing this wasn't going to feel like an Avengers book.

I think thats the problem most people who dislike the book seem to have, it's that it doesn't jive with their concept of the avengers.

I think thats why we get so many "you don't like change" debates, also.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Changing members...good.
Changing villains...good.
Changing relationships...good.
CHANGING CONCEPT - BAD.

 

[gildea]

Changing members...good.
Changing villains...good.
Changing relationships...good.
CHANGING CONCEPT - BAD.

Yeah.
Of course i disagree that it's a change in concept. But you've hit the nail on the head.

 

[roach]

so it's alright to change the concept of the Avengers....but a bad thing to change it to Spiderman?????

 

[Harlekin]

Yeah.
Of course i disagree that it's a change in concept. But you've hit the nail on the head.

So, Gildea, no offense, but enlighten us to what the concept of the Avengers really is.

 

[gildea]

so it's alright to change the concept of the Avengers....but a bad thing to change it to Spiderman?????

(not really wanting to debate here)

No what i said was I don't consider what bendis has done a change in concept from the avengers (there are differences but i really don't think they are at the conceptual level).

 

[gildea]

So, Gildea, no offense, but enlighten us to what the concept of the Avengers really is.

Marvels Biggest Superhero team.

(in my opinion)

or

"and then there came a day unlike any other, when earths mightiest heroes were united against a common threat. On that day the avengers were born -- to fight the foes no single hero could withstand!"

 

[iloveclones]

I would agree. IMO, they haven't changed the concept at all, just the players.

I would argue two things that you said, roach. I think it's a stretch to say the Avengers were as popular as ever. I don't have the sales numbers in front of me, but I look at them pretty frequently, and they were pretty middle-of-the-road pre-Disassembled. And you could hardly say Marvel failed when they've done exactly what they set out to do. In fact, you could say that they are primed to "double-dip", because all the old-school fans are so rabid to see what they consider to be a legitimate Avengers title, they could have two Avengers titles doing decent sales, instead of one doing middle of the road sales.

 

[bkhedr]

So, Gildea, no offense, but enlighten us to what the concept of the Avengers really is.

Earth's Mightiest Heroes assembled to combat those threats no single hero can stand against

come on you know this

 

[iloveclones]

So, Gildea, no offense, but enlighten us to what the concept of the Avengers really is.

Why aren't you asking Doc the same question? He was the one that said the concept was changed. (actually, he implied it, but you get the drift...)

 

[bkhedr]

I would agree. IMO, they haven't changed the concept at all, just the players.

I would argue two things that you said, roach. I think it's a stretch to say the Avengers were as popular as ever. I don't have the sales numbers in front of me, but I look at them pretty frequently, and they were pretty middle-of-the-road pre-Disassembled. And you could hardly say Marvel failed when they've done exactly what they set out to do. In fact, you could say that they are primed to "double-dip", because all the old-school fans are so rabid to see what they consider to be a legitimate Avengers title, they could have two Avengers titles doing decent sales, instead of one doing middle of the road sales.

yup that sums it up. When all is said and done NA is more of a marketing scheme than a plot device. Marvel is gradually trying to suck us all in to the point where we HAVE to read 20 titles a month just to know what's going on.

The simple remedy?

If you dont like it dont buy it, and if those who dont like it outnumber those who do, well then who knows? Maybe Marvel will go bankrupt again and this time hopefully learn their lesson. (though I doubt it)

oh and to clarify, i dont mind the current roster or the problems they face

 

[Doc Destruction]

Oh, I'll answer the question.

Earth's MIGHTIEST heroes. Okay so what does this mean?

Do you want Cloak and Dagger to fight Kang?
Do you want Speedball to fight Ultron?
Do you want the Runaways to fight the Masters of Evil?

Conversely...

Do you want The Avengers to fight ninjas?
Do you want The Avengers to fight Sauron?
Do you want The Avengers to fight crime in Detroit?

They're Marvel's JLA. Do you see the trinity at DC fighting Deadshot? The Riddler? No.

MIGHTIEST. How about some MIGHTY, please? And, of course, since the man doesn't know how to use things that are NOT his creation, Bendis had to whip someone up for them to fight on that level.

Other writers use the New Avengers better than Bendis does. Hell, even that hack JMS did it.

 

[roach]

I would agree. IMO, they haven't changed the concept at all, just the players.

I would argue two things that you said, roach. I think it's a stretch to say the Avengers were as popular as ever. I don't have the sales numbers in front of me, but I look at them pretty frequently, and they were pretty middle-of-the-road pre-Disassembled. And you could hardly say Marvel failed when they've done exactly what they set out to do. In fact, you could say that they are primed to "double-dip", because all the old-school fans are so rabid to see what they consider to be a legitimate Avengers title, they could have two Avengers titles doing decent sales, instead of one doing middle of the road sales.

They failed in the fact that they left quite a few Avengers fans hanging.

 

[gildea]

Oh, I'll answer the question.

Earth's MIGHTIEST heroes. Okay so what does this mean?

Do you want Cloak and Dagger to fight Kang?
Do you want Speedball to fight Ultron?
Do you want the Runaways to fight the Masters of Evil?

Conversely...

Do you want The Avengers to fight ninjas?
Do you want The Avengers to fight Sauron?
Do you want The Avengers to fight crime in Detroit?

They're Marvel's JLA. Do you see the trinity at DC fighting Deadshot? The Riddler? No.

MIGHTIEST. How about some MIGHTY, please? And, of course, since the man doesn't know how to use things that are NOT his creation, Bendis had to whip someone up for them to fight on that level.

Other writers use the New Avengers better than Bendis does. Hell, even that hack JMS did it.

wrecker is fairly mighty (as he put he was a thor foe).
the void being the sentry is exceptionally mighty.
the collective thing if it is the leftover mutant power is also very mighty.


and anyway :

Changing villains...good.

 

[bkhedr]

But the current team is easily more powerful than more than more than one old incarnation of the roster (i know we've covered this but people keep ignoring it)

the fact that they are not literally earth's MIGHTIEST has never been what the Avengers are about.

IMO the JLA will beat you with raw power, the Avengers will beat you with heart, teamwork, brains, and bravery

That's the contrast

 

[Doc Destruction]

Yes, but the people who were assembled SHOULD have destroyed those ninjas, and slapped Sauron around. ONE of them could have.

 

[roach]

IMO the JLA will beat you with raw power, the Avengers will beat you with heart, teamwork, brains, and bravery

but we havent even seen this in Nu Avengers...unless you call Cage scaring Electro unconscious that

 

[gildea]

Yes, but the people who were assembled SHOULD have destroyed those ninjas, and slapped Sauron around. ONE of them could have.

But they didn't really have any problems with either of them.

Of course i accepted the reasoning that in the first avengers vs ninjas fight they were disadvantaged because of location (ie the hand fight in swarm attacks so if they hit you in an enclosed space they have a big advantage.) and that their biggest present gun (iron man) couldn't cut loose because of that). It makes sense that in a small space a team that his barely worked with each other will hamper each other particuarly against a mass of foes. IMO

you seen that the minute they were in an open space iron man took the ninjas on himself with ease.

 

[Norman Osborn]

but we havent even seen this in Nu Avengers...unless you call Cage scaring Electro unconscious that

That was awful....and I like the New Avengers....inexcusable however...is still inexcusable!