Why make the ending so weird

[Trevor Goodchild]

you can forgive someone but they still have to answer to the law of the land.

that's real life.

And it has to change, if we are to live in peace. And for it to change we must change ourselves and that's the hardest thing to do.

That's what's stupid - the dead victim doesn't care anymore, doesn't have any say in this world so the verdict falls on to the next of kin. And yet it is still decided by neutrality cold and careless and most of the time even more vengeful than the next of kin.

Why spend a whole film talking about one being responsible for their actions to have it completely annulled in the next.

spiderman is fundamentally based on a hero's responsibility not only to himself but to his loved ones and his city.

sandman is still going to be commiting crimes hurting people for the sake of his daughter, how is spidey letting him go responsible?

Responsibility is only about our own selves.
How can Spidey be the hand of justice, if there’s no one to beat up?
You’re using speculation to support your theory that Sandman will be forever a bad guy. We have no way of knowing that.
We had four characters to reflect the theme of vengeance, forgiveness and most importantly self-forgiveness:
(1) Peter and (2) Harry - succumbed to vengeance and yet found their way back at the end, tho it was too late for one of them.
(3) Eddie - is the truest villain in the film. He is fully consumed by his ego and does not realize his mistakes.
(4) Flint - is very much a victim rather than a villain. He is a victim of the system and frankly just wasn’t smart enough to find his way out of it sooner. And yet common sense rang to him eventually. And even tho indeed too late but it was a big step to take from Peter’s part to realize the right action to take.

 

[Spider-Fan83]

this is such a pointless debate
yes, he should pay for this crime, but, how do you lock up a man made of sand, what could of Spiderman possibly done, sandman pretty much already shown that spidey can't do s*** to him (ya, water temporally weakens him, but, how would of that helped spidey at that given point)

he didn't allow him get away
he knew that he couldn't do s*** and if the guy didn't go away, or if he tried to stop him or attack him again, he probably would of got himself killed (so, he forgave him in hopes that he will at least be going in a more peaceful state, and reconsider his action from now on)

you know, when i first watched that scene, I thought, that the sand blowing off in to wind, was him dieing (so to say) that he gave up, released his control of the sand, and became dust in the wind
sure, even then it would be possible for him to come back, but, only if he really willed him self back together
(i don't think, or know if this is what the scene was meant to be,(probably not) it was just my first impressions of it)

 

[November Rain]

And it has to change, if we are to live in peace. And for it to change we must change ourselves and that's the hardest thing to do.

That's what's stupid - the dead victim doesn't care anymore, doesn't have any say in this world so the verdict falls on to the next of kin. And yet it is still decided by neutrality cold and careless and most of the time even more vengeful than the next of kin.

This is your problem when it comes to the analysis...

you think the only victim here is ben/parker/may.

what about all the places he robbed and other people he hurt, don't they have a right for him to answer to his recent crimes after he escaped from prison and turned into the sandman.

THose he has currently harmed and are still affected by his torment, are they no longer allowed to have a say?

Responsibility is only about our own selves.
How can Spidey be the hand of justice, if there’s no one to beat up?
You’re using speculation to support your theory that Sandman will be forever a bad guy. We have no way of knowing that.
We had four characters to reflect the theme of vengeance, forgiveness and most importantly self-forgiveness:
(1) Peter and (2) Harry - succumbed to vengeance and yet found their way back at the end, tho it was too late for one of them.
(3) Eddie - is the truest villain in the film. He is fully consumed by his ego and does not realize his mistakes.
(4) Flint - is very much a victim rather than a villain. He is a victim of the system and frankly just wasn’t smart enough to find his way out of it sooner. And yet common sense rang to him eventually. And even tho indeed too late but it was a big step to take from Peter’s part to realize the right action to take.

sandman said he was sorry for what happened to ben, he never once in the film said he was sorry for his current actions or violence or tones of kidnapping or for wanting to kill spider-man like 2 minutes earlier by bashing his skull in.

his daughter is no healthier now than she was at the start when he got his powers so yes, he is going to carry on stealing in order to get money.

if his actions were because he felt he never got forgiveness for that mistaken killing and he would stop after parker's speech, then yeah but you have even less evidence to support that he would just stop.

spidey is the hand of justice for spontaneous acts where villains can't be brought in by normal means (or he just happens to be close by). if there was no trouble, there would be no need for spidey, or any other superhero. That's not a problem in my eyes.



three minutes in, they start talking.

sandman looks down and sees some cops, then he starts about his daughter and gets out without spidey causing a fuss or without going down to the ground.

All evidence points to a getaway in a criminal or responsible free fashion. He dupes peter...

 

[November Rain]

this is such a pointless debate
yes, he should pay for this crime, but, how do you lock up a man made of sand, what could of Spiderman possibly done, sandman pretty much already shown that spidey can't do s*** to him (ya, water temporally weakens him, but, how would of that helped spidey at that given point)

he didn't allow him get away
he knew that he couldn't do s*** and if the guy didn't go away, or if he tried to stop him or attack him again, he probably would of got himself killed (so, he forgave him in hopes that he will at least be going in a more peaceful state, and reconsider his action from now on)

you know, when i first watched that scene, I thought, that the sand blowing off in to wind, was him dieing (so to say) that he gave up, released his control of the sand, and became dust in the wind
sure, even then it would be possible for him to come back, but, only if he really willed him self back together
(i don't think, or know if this is what the scene was meant to be,(probably not) it was just my first impressions of it)

It's not about spidey taking sandman into custody...

it's about sandman realising that there are other ways to help his daughter instead of turning to crime and giving himself in 'RESPONSIBLY'

I'm so close to actually giving an episode of legions of superheroes as apiece of evidence to show how a criminal can hand themselves in because it's the right thing to do and they should pay for their crimes, regardless of how they now feel about it.

 

[Spider-Fan83]

^i under stand the whole, he should of learned and be willing to pay for want he's done, but, thats not how it works in the really world

I mean, if the guy showed up and was just like
"ok, spider-man, I give up, tell the police i will go willingly, and spend the rest of my life seating in a cell, that I can easily escape from, and never use my abilities again"
how lame would that be

though, I guess, if he made some type of deal with spidery, that he would go in, if spidey swore to collect on the reward for his capture and, put it towards helping his daughter
or if spidey, said that he can help find a cure for her, cause he's a genius

the alternate ending were his daughter shows up would of worked, best, but, we got this version

 

[Trevor Goodchild]

This is your problem when it comes to the analysis...

you think the only victim here is ben/parker/may.

what about all the places he robbed and other people he hurt, don't they have a right for him to answer to his recent crimes after he escaped from prison and turned into the sandman.

THose he has currently harmed and are still affected by his torment, are they no longer allowed to have a say?

sandman said he was sorry for what happened to ben, he never once in the film said he was sorry for his current actions or violence or tones of kidnapping or for wanting to kill spider-man like 2 minutes earlier by bashing his skull in.

He said he ‘didn’t choose to be this’. Arguable, but as I said he didn’t seem smart enough in any case, but that basically meant his whole crime spree in general.
Apologies deserve only those who are ready to forgive.
As far as we know he robbed only the money from the bank with his partner and as Sandman…and tried to steal a car. He hurt the people involved but his character specifically unravels in such a way that it is clear he doesn’t want to kill anyone.
So that was nothing but a severe case of bullying. The best Sandman could do is pay their medical bills. But if not, as you said, this is real life, and it’s made out of beat downs and grudges, you learn to live with them and you move on with your life.

his daughter is no healthier now than she was at the start when he got his powers so yes, he is going to carry on stealing in order to get money.

No, that’s what you want him to do.

if his actions were because he felt he never got forgiveness for that mistaken killing and he would stop after parker's speech, then yeah but you have even less evidence to support that he would just stop.

I’m taking into consideration only what was shown in the movie.

spidey is the hand of justice for spontaneous acts where villains can't be brought in by normal means (or he just happens to be close by). if there was no trouble, there would be no need for spidey, or any other superhero. That's not a problem in my eyes.

So my point was if Sandman stopped being a threat, Spidey should not intervene.

three minutes in, they start talking.

sandman looks down and sees some cops, then he starts about his daughter and gets out without spidey causing a fuss or without going down to the ground.

All evidence points to a getaway in a criminal or responsible free fashion. He dupes peter...

Now that’s a load of crap and you know it.
All you’re doing is stretching it to serve your point.

All this was only about Sandman getting a second chance. He got it and deservingly so. What he does with it after is irrelevant.

In any case, I said all I wanted to say and repeated myself enough already.
So I don’t want to continue this conversation any longer since we live in two worlds far apart.

 

[November Rain]

^i under stand the whole, he should of learned and be willing to pay for want he's done, but, thats not how it works in the really world

I mean, if the guy showed up and was just like
"ok, spider-man, I give up, tell the police i will go willingly, and spend the rest of my life seating in a cell, that I can easily escape from, and never use my abilities again"
how lame would that be

though, I guess, if he made some type of deal with spidery, that he would go in, if spidey swore to collect on the reward for his capture and, put it towards helping his daughter
or if spidey, said that he can help find a cure for her, cause he's a genius

the alternate ending were his daughter shows up would of worked, best, but, we got this version

this is the angle that makes the most sense.

although not exactly a reward but perhaps have spidey raise awareness by starting a charity.

He's not going back to prison because he's a danger and that's the best place for him, he's going back because he realises that he's been going about things the wrong way and two wrongs (or several) don't make a right so he returns to finish his time.

 

[November Rain]

He said he ‘didn’t choose to be this’. Arguable, but as I said he didn’t seem smart enough in any case, but that basically meant his whole crime spree in general.
Apologies deserve only those who are ready to forgive.
As far as we know he robbed only the money from the bank with his partner and as Sandman…and tried to steal a car. He hurt the people involved but his character specifically unravels in such a way that it is clear he doesn’t want to kill anyone.
So that was nothing but a severe case of bullying. The best Sandman could do is pay their medical bills. But if not, as you said, this is real life, and it’s made out of beat downs and grudges, you learn to live with them and you move on with your life.

Dude....

he robs money with his first partner
breaks out of a jail
assaults a police officer on numeral occasion
causes public damage
terrorises innocents
aids in a kidnapping
is on the verge of willingly killing spiderman
causes at least two robberies (one found as regular spidey and one at night as black spidey)

I don't understand how just because of a few lines he should no longer be guilty of his crimes. Osborne does EXACTLY the same thing in spidey one claiming it was the goblin that made him do it. Does that mean he should no longer be responsible for all those people he killed or innocents he tried to hurt.

Should they just get on with their lives and suck it up?

No, that’s what you want him to do.
I’m taking into consideration only what was shown in the movie.

No, you have no evidence what so ever that he is going to stop. I have evidence showing he is going to continue based on what's shown in the film. I'm not basing this on crazy rationals, i'm showing nothing has changed with regards his daughters health so why should his habbits also changed since he is still on the run, unable to work and still requires money to save her.

So my point was if Sandman stopped being a threat, Spidey should not intervene.

there is nothing to show he isn't still a threat, he doesn't say he will stop. Yes he is remorseful, he doesn't want it like this but there is no evidence to show he will stop. I mean the guy looks down and sees police cars and then flies off. THose are not the actions of a wanted man who is no longer a threat. THose are the actions of a guilty man who will carry on doing what is necessary (in his eyes).

Now that’s a load of crap and you know it.
All you’re doing is stretching it to serve your point.

All this was only about Sandman getting a second chance. He got it and deservingly so. What he does with it after is irrelevant.

watch the scene. parker starts out correctly when he talks about choice when he killed his uncle. He then hits parker where it hurts with a sob story. parker's so moved by it he starts tearing up and admits he's done terrible things to (which is where he would go but i've faced up to them and done's what right afterwards, that's what my uncle taught me).

He looks down sees the police and his tone softens while speaking about his daughter and raises the necklace so parker could see it.

if you don't see it, fair doos but someone who was truelly sorry wouldn't run away. Regardless of what he did in the first film, he's continually broken and underminded the law and has plent of actions to repent.

In any case, I said all I wanted to say and repeated myself enough already.
So I don’t want to continue this conversation any longer since we live in two worlds far apart.

fair enough

 

[Vile]

Marko's character was just written really, really stupidly. Lets face it - he's a character who hasnt done anything of notice his entire career in the comics so they had come up with this lame "I shot Ben' origin to cover that up.

He stuck a pistol in Ben's chest and blew him away. End of story. It doesnt matter if his partner bumped into him, his finger slipped, a car horn went off, 300 spartans ran by, WHATEVER. He still killed uncle Ben and just feeling, well, golly gee pretty bad for it doesnt make up for the fact he's a murderer.

Yes the film was about forgiveness, but forgiving a character like Harry is one thing, Sandy is not. Sick daughter with 5 feet of tubing up her nose is not an excuse for anything.

Whats next? Electro apologizes at the end of Spidey 4? He's got a sick ol' granny...uh...somewhere!

=)

 

[UltimateJustin]

To be perfectly honest, I thought they were going to kiss during that rooftop scene. And was a little disappointed that they didnt.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Marko's character was just written really, really stupidly. Lets face it - he's a character who hasnt done anything of notice his entire career in the comics so they had come up with this lame "I shot Ben' origin to cover that up.

He stuck a pistol in Ben's chest and blew him away. End of story. It doesnt matter if his partner bumped into him, his finger slipped, a car horn went off, 300 spartans ran by, WHATEVER. He still killed uncle Ben and just feeling, well, golly gee pretty bad for it doesnt make up for the fact he's a murderer.

Yes the film was about forgiveness, but forgiving a character like Harry is one thing, Sandy is not. Sick daughter with 5 feet of tubing up her nose is not an excuse for anything.

Whats next? Electro apologizes at the end of Spidey 4? He's got a sick ol' granny...uh...somewhere!

=)

Exactly, Sandman being Uncle Ben's killer is the weakest part of the story for me.

Yes he had a sick daughter, but at the end of the day, that doesnt give him the right to put other people in mortal danger just to get money to pay for medical bills.

How anyone could forgive a person who took the life of a loved one is beyond me. No matter what his reasons, he is a murderer and doesnt deserve forgiveness in my eyes. And if it was me that position, i can say with 100% confidence that i WOULDNT forgive him.

Definately the weakest part of Spiderman 3 for me.

 

[Abaddon]

to sum up Spidey 3

 

[Blader5489]

Marko's character was just written really, really stupidly. Lets face it - he's a character who hasnt done anything of notice his entire career in the comics so they had come up with this lame "I shot Ben' origin to cover that up.

He stuck a pistol in Ben's chest and blew him away. End of story. It doesnt matter if his partner bumped into him, his finger slipped, a car horn went off, 300 spartans ran by, WHATEVER. He still killed uncle Ben and just feeling, well, golly gee pretty bad for it doesnt make up for the fact he's a murderer.

Yes the film was about forgiveness, but forgiving a character like Harry is one thing, Sandy is not. Sick daughter with 5 feet of tubing up her nose is not an excuse for anything.

Whats next? Electro apologizes at the end of Spidey 4? He's got a sick ol' granny...uh...somewhere!

=)

So Peter and Harry get a free pass because they were the main characters? They can be easily forgiven because they only tried to kill?

How anyone could forgive a person who took the life of a loved one is beyond me.

Well, John Paul II was able to forgive the man who tried to kill him. Forgiveness is very much a righteous concept, which I don't think most people can relate to but is still an important lesson to try and convey.

I think it is a testament to Peter's character that is he able to forgive both Marko and himself for Uncle Ben's death.

 

[shalashaska]

The ending of sm3 simply emphasises Raimi's lack of understanding of the characters he's dealing with. I find it funny that people blamed venom on Arad and Raimi's hatred for the character yet, the sandman confession/harry death was so poorly handled in terms of characterisation.

Spidey trying to tak him down wouldn't have made much sense at that moment but I've said this many times before, he could have at least tried to appeal to his better nature and convince him to turn himself in, not just for the uncle Ben murder but for the countless crimes he committed through out the film. Pete made no attempt what so ever and its not as if he was in a rush to get to Harry's side either.

 

[Vile]

So Peter and Harry get a free pass because they were the main characters? They can be easily forgiven because they only tried to kill?



Well, John Paul II was able to forgive the man who tried to kill him. Forgiveness is very much a righteous concept, which I don't think most people can relate to but is still an important lesson to try and convey.

I think it is a testament to Peter's character that is he able to forgive both Marko and himself for Uncle Ben's death.

Peter and Harry get a free pass because they didnt gun down an old man in the street.

I dont remember Harry commiting murder, and Spidey? He's was too busy dancing his ass off down the street.

Marko was a murderer, plain and simple. Spidey let the badguy go because he was 'sorry'. Nuff said.

Spidey is hardly the Pope.

 

[StylishHokie21]

Yeah...I felt the ending could have been better. Marko should have went to jail instead of drifting away.

 

[Blader5489]

Peter and Harry get a free pass because they didnt gun down an old man in the street.

I dont remember Harry commiting murder, and Spidey? He's was too busy dancing his ass off down the street.

They are both guilty of attempted murder...TWICE.

Spidey let the badguy go because he was 'sorry'. Nuff said.

Yeah, if you oversimplify like that. I'm going to explain the significance of the scene again because I'm tired of repeating myself. It's not exactly difficult to decipher either, so if you haven't gotten it by now, then you never will.

 

[omid17]

Sandman did kill Peter's uncle(even if by accident)because he was involved in a robbery. And later in the film he threatens people as well as robbing an armored truck. And whether he meant to or not,he put MJ's life in danger by teaming with a psychopath in Venom. He should have payed at least somewhat for what he's done. If not by death,then he should've given himself up to the police. Like he said in the film,"I'm not a bad person. I've just had back luck." I believe that. Marko is not a dangerous person,but he needed some sort of punishment for the crimes he did commit.

agreed

 

[Victarion]

Would've been improved if Sandman admitted his wrongs to Spider-Man, had a heart to heart with Penny, then turned himself in.

---Morzan

 

[Stevens25]

Probably what should've happened,at least in my opinion,is that during the ending fight Marko realizes that teaming up with Venom was a mistake. He knows he's not a killer but he wanted revenge on Spider-man so he went along. His wife and daughter are at the scene and she pleads with him to stop what he's doing. Marko turns on Venom and tries to do the right thing,but in the end Venom kills him. I don't know,something like that. So,he dies,but he dies a hero. Kinda like Doc Ock in part 2.

 

[UltimateJustin]

Yeah...I felt the ending could have been better. Marko should have went to jail instead of drifting away.

 

[Vile]

Yeah, if you oversimplify like that. I'm going to explain the significance of the scene again because I'm tired of repeating myself. It's not exactly difficult to decipher either, so if you haven't gotten it by now, then you never will.

Oversimply it? Lets be serious here. Raimi didnt instill the scene with poetry or hidden messages or anything. Marko appears, sells Pete the "I killed yer Uncle because my buddy bumped into me (Can't believe they even TRIED that in the film, but hey..) but it's okay because I have a sick daughter. She has tubes up her nose. That...ya know, makes it cool to kill people. I'm not a bad guy, really" crap, Pete cries and forgives him.


Hell, Pete's whole 'We've all done terrible things' line didnt even make sense. What did Pete do besides ***** slap MJ that was SO terrible? Strutting? Ignoring Connors on the phone? demanding cookies from Chocolate Cake Girl? Putting his feet on JJJ's desk? OoooOOOOooOo Peter! Yer right up there with Hitler and Stalin, you devil, you!

Oh wait, the flushing Marko down the drain? Hardly an act of pure evil. Hell, he threw a massive steel hour hand at Octopus in movie 2.


All in all, by forgiving Marko he's pretty much opened himself up to having to forgive any villain with a decent sob story.

 

[UltimateJustin]

Oversimply it? Lets be serious here. Raimi didnt instill the scene with poetry or hidden messages or anything. Marko appears, sells Pete the "I killed yer Uncle because my buddy bumped into me (Can't believe they even TRIED that in the film, but hey..) but it's okay because I have a sick daughter. She has tubes up her nose. That...ya know, makes it cool to kill people. I'm not a bad guy, really" crap, Pete cries and forgives him.


Hell, Pete's whole 'We've all done terrible things' line didnt even make sense. What did Pete do besides ***** slap MJ that was SO terrible? Strutting? Ignoring Connors on the phone? demanding cookies from Chocolate Cake Girl? Putting his feet on JJJ's desk? OoooOOOOooOo Peter! Yer right up there with Hitler and Stalin, you devil, you!

Oh wait, the flushing Marko down the drain? Hardly an act of pure evil. Hell, he threw a massive steel hour hand at Octopus in movie 2.


All in all, by forgiving Marko he's pretty much opened himself up to having to forgive any villain with a decent sob story.

I think he was reffering to beating the crap out of his friend and throwing a deadly pumpkin bomb at him, as well as dropping a verbal bomb on him by telling him he was a failure to his dad. He had "power" and didnt act "responsibly" with it, I guess. All of that probably made him even more ashamed since Harry came to help him.

Not that I dont agree with what you're saying. If they wanted to show that Marko was just unfortuante and trying to help his daughter they didnt succeed because the character wasnt very sympathetic, he went out of his way to injure fools and he was kind of an idiot. When you can turn into an invincible sand being you should be able to figure out a way to get $$$$ and keep it, other than just rob banks. Perhaps he could do some street performances.

 

[IamProdigy]

I’m agnostic.
Christians believe in hell. While I believe heaven and hell is just another nazi system of reward and fear - you behave or you will burn! If there is an afterlife and if there is a god, s/he’s all forgiving.

Say a guy came into your house and killed your loved ones, and you die and move on to the afterlife...you'd want to see that same man, up their, or down their, or in the middle their, or whatever...and you wouldn't be a bit mad that he got the same treatment as you? And didn't even get punished for it?

Now, personally, I would not want an "afterlife" to be just as fair as it is on Earth...if you're a murderer or a rapist or a Satanist, I think they deserve to go somewhere as, ala Hell, but, my opinion.

 

[Trevor Goodchild]

Say a guy came into your house and killed your loved ones, and you die and move on to the afterlife...you'd want to see that same man, up their, or down their, or in the middle their, or whatever...and you wouldn't be a bit mad that he got the same treatment as you? And didn't even get punished for it?

Now, personally, I would not want an "afterlife" to be just as fair as it is on Earth...if you're a murderer or a rapist or a Satanist, I think they deserve to go somewhere as, ala Hell, but, my opinion.

Well, again, I don’t think there’s anything I can say to you that would change that usual reward and punishment mentality.
We all are going to die eventually but we all want to live just a little longer because we have ‘very important stuff’ to do here. And since we barely get anything ‘fair’ (meaning ‘our own way&#8217 in this life, we might just as well be hoping for an eternity of sloth and gluttony to us and torture and misery to those others in the after. While my killer and I could eventually be having a mug of heavenly mead together and laugh back at it all, like adults on children’s games.

And since I am back here I might just as well respond to this:

I don't understand how just because of a few lines he should no longer be guilty of his crimes. Osborne does EXACTLY the same thing in spidey one claiming it was the goblin that made him do it. Does that mean he should no longer be responsible for all those people he killed or innocents he tried to hurt.

Green Goblin was deceiving Spidey so he could kill him, Sandman did no such thing. If he was that black-hearted he would’ve broken Spidey in half and crushed the puny cops below. There was nothing that could’ve stopped him. But he was humble enough not to do so. And that’s another reason why Spidey let him go.
Sandman was selfish enough to escape, I’ll give you that. But it’s ridiculous to think that he was laughing to himself while doing so.
Spider-Man is a goofy blockbuster movie franchise on a huge morality trip. There are no obscure double meanings in it.

Should they just get on with their lives and suck it up?

Actually…yes. Why shouldn’t they?
As I said, this life is full of grudges and disappointments. If you keep in conflict with your past, your future is meaningless.
Plus whining about a bully to your parents makes you a *****, dude.

As for the other points you made. I can say the same to you - nothing I can say will change your vengeful mentality.
You’re making conclusions about the future, of what Sandman could do from there, while I only analyse objectively and neutrally. I don’t care what he does beyond SM3’s ending. I only said that he deserved the position he ended up in.
If Sam will make him do what you want him to do, I will be just as disappointed with SM4 as I was with SM2, which betrayed the ending in SM1. But that’s a different topic…