Apocalypse X-Men Apocalypse News and Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 42

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]515471[/split]

 

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]514925[/split]

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Does AoS even count, considering the shows connection is kinda one-sided?

Yes.

I thought they were still trying to make Inhumans the new mutants?

The Inhumans are around also.

 

[2kt09]

Yeah...regardless of the split between the tv-verse and movie-verse, mutants would be introduced like all the others have. Apart from the many onscreen origin movies/scenes, everyone else in whichever cinematic universe are merely discovered.

About this AoS Scorch, I skipped those episodes, wikia says his backstory is vague and that he was near a nuclear plant that "caught fire". He doesn't even share the same name as the mutant Scorch from the comics.

Apocalypse barely fits into that plot concept DD s2 (ep1-4), BvS DoJ, and CA:CW were pushing.
So what if those characters are considered heroes in the comics or have been shown to be in previous X-Men movies; they're not treated as such until right until the final showdown (in the case of Storm and Magneto).

 

[2kt09]

The characters, themselves, would obviously be handled differently. There's practically nothing new anyone could add to "their struggle" and for the MCU tv division (if it goes to television) it's treading on very familiar territory after their incorporation of the Inhumans.

When they got Daredevil, they took a more gritty and grounded approach.
When they got Spider-man, they found story potential to go Ultimate.

I'm all for "Different/alternate reality, inter-dimensional travel" if and when it comes time to it because 'these characters/things were kept under wraps and are just now being brought to light' is an overused cliche.

As previously mentioned, mutants in all but name are already a part of the MCU.

Considering that there are are already some mutants in the MCU, but not called mutants really.

Don't bother, they don't want to have a serious conversation about the possibilities.

Is this something that gets brought after the Scorch ep
because I found no indication of his powers "being activated by themselves during a period of time in which he was stressed".
Also, who else has apparently developed powers from nothing and isn't an Inhuman?

 

[def28]

You would have to play the difference on mutants vs hero's and why one is accepted and the other not on a much grander scale. That hasn't been led to in Fox's universe cause they have no other superheros, and Marvel can't rely on only the tv viewers watching AOS to get that because it doesn't come close to the level of mass audiences Avengers or X-Men bring to the table. They don't spend their time interacting with Iron Man, Black Panther, Spider-Man etc talking about why they are different or why they should fight along side of them. They aren't even allowed to. X-Men characters would be.

Logan, Beast and Storm would no doubt be crossing over into other properties and the social stigmas with being a mutant hero vs a celebrity hero like The Avengers would have to be dealt with. That's something we have not seen with X-Men on screen yet. Let alone a romantic relationship between the two groups like BP and Storm.

New elements to the X-Men's struggles would be through just interacting with these other Marvel heros.

 

[Smilodon]

I don't think there is a person that doesn't want to see Cap and Logan interact.

Interdimensional travel would be a fun way to bring things into the fold while keeping their respective universe intact, though that would be for crossover purposes and not really to introduce mutants permanently into the broader tapestry of the MCU. The problem for the X-Men films is their inconsistent quality/amount though, not necessarily the fact that they're not interacting with the Avengers, so including them in the MCU wouldn't necessarily be the automatic cure for what people dislike about this franchise that couldn't be fixed on their own unfortunately (unless of course, what they dislike is the fact that the X-Men aren't interacting with the Avengers).

At this point though, all Fox can really do is try and bring in people to make better films though. Hopefully they've been taking notes from others' successes as well as their own.

 

[def28]

Agreed, that's all they can really do at this point.

 

[2kt09]

You would have to play the difference on mutants vs hero's and why one is accepted and the other not on a much grander scale. That hasn't been led to in Fox's universe cause they have no other superheros.

We went over how contradictory this is in the continuity thread.
What mutant-specific difference is there if one side is saving + protecting, while the other side is committing crimes, in costumes no less?
Heck, even if a mutant's power isn't used for either, he/she would still stand out like any other attraction if they're not trying to blend in.

Marvel can't rely on only the tv viewers watching AOS to get that because it doesn't come close to the level of mass audiences Avengers or X-Men bring to the table. They don't spend their time interacting with Iron Man, Black Panther, Spider-Man etc talking about why they are different or why they should fight along side of them. They aren't even allowed to.

The other reason I brought the tv side is they could just as easily adapt the mutants on the big screen the way they have adapted the Inhumans, which isn't different enough for a reboot apart from little-no public awareness.

If this deal happened then at least a few X-Men characters would be crossing over into the Avenger side of things. Logan, Beast and Storm would no doubt be crossing over into other properties and the social stigmas with being a mutant hero vs a celebrity hero like The Avengers would have to be dealt with. That's something we have not seen with X-Men on screen yet. Let alone a romantic relationship between the two groups like BP and Storm.

Crossovers, Costumes, Characterization
Social stigmas that just wouldn't make sense if the two naturally co-existed and members of The Avengers happen to be "human mutates".
You used the distinction of mutant and hero, and yes, they're both heroes. If BP and Storm are from two teams with similar ideals (stop the villain, stop his plans, save innocents), I'm assuming the appeal is much more than just she's got powers and he's compensating.

Part of the depth and new pov on the X-Men's struggles would be through just interacting with these other heroes. That's something I thought was really done well in Civil War in the exchanges between Scarlet Witch and Vision dealing with society's fear and acceptance of her.

As Smilodon pretty much implied it's a great one-off scenario where characters from two alternate worlds collide and get to converse about conflicting POV's due to their respective sociopolitical climates. This loses its charm once repeated (when that's all the X-Men still in the MCU talk about/vice-versa). The same goes for Scarlet Witch and Vision returning to this exchange in a future installment, even if altered to fit a different context.

 

[def28]

We went over how contradictory this is in the continuity thread.
What mutant-specific difference is there if one side is saving + protecting, while the other side is committing crimes, in costumes no less?
Heck, even if a mutant's power isn't used for either, he/she would still stand out like any other attraction if they're not trying to blend in.

It's generalizing a group for the way they were born. Not for their actions.

Doesn't matter if you are human, mutant, Inhuman or whatever in the universe. There is good and bad with ridiculous power. But if you are a mutant doing good guy things tend to be more difficult on convincing the crowd.

Crossovers, Costumes, Characterization
Social stigmas that just wouldn't make sense if the two naturally co-existed and members of The Avengers happen to be "human mutates".
You used the distinction of mutant and hero, and yes, they're both heroes. If BP and Storm are from two teams with similar ideals (stop the villain, stop his plans, save innocents), I'm assuming the appeal is much more than just she's got powers and he's compensating.

Not following you completely here as I've read plenty that makes perfect sense in this world of serial Science fiction and fantasy. X-Men have a difficult time winning over the public because once again, how they were born. Avengers get action figures. You don't see the difference between a significant portion of people being born a certain way, many whome are flat out cursed and Iron Man? Or Banner through experiments. Or Cap who volunteered?

Of course the appeal is much more then powers, it comes down to character more then anything. That's the appeal to all these films, games, cartoons and comics. If the X-Men characters have nothing to add as individuals we wouldn't be having these debates. It's one of the richest in numbers and quality.

As Smilodon pretty much implied it's a great one-off scenario where characters from two alternate worlds collide and get to converse about conflicting POV's due to their respective sociopolitical climates. This loses its charm once repeated (when that's all the X-Men still in the MCU talk about/vice-versa). The same goes for Scarlet Witch and Vision returning to this exchange in a future installment, even if altered to fit a different context.

The point of development is to build upon ideas and characters. If all you can do is have one issue then assume all charm is lost then this serial format of X-Men and Avengers that has lasted for decades now would be pointless. SW adds a different dynamic then Storm would, Logan conflicting with Cap or Iron Man would lead to a completely different rivalry, BP's ideals and character are not the exact same as Spider-Man and so on.

The X-Men can't be wrapped up in one simple conflict and all is well because these characters are not the same. The folks who want this wan't them in a grander form of storytelling one way or the other.

The best thing about the horrid Avengers vs X-Men comic was all post war storylines not the actual event. The debates brought up on them working along side each other were far more interesting. After that, you find new conflict amongst many other things within these characters. As you would with any franchise that wants to continue.

 

[def28]

With their own films I completely agree. I want all that screen time only for X-Men characters in X-Men films. But I'd like to see them in major crossovers such as Infinity War and stuff if Marvel were making the films.

 

[def28]

And plenty have loved this new cast. But this was a mixed film. BvS gets hate, IM3 gets hate, MOS gets hate etc. Apocalypse isn't the only film.

Everyone knows you love this franchise but when you are the one who keeps bringing up Marvel, their fans and how everything is so one sided it just makes things worse. Always has. Not everyone you are calling out hates X-Men like you think.

 

[mightiest_mortal]

I don't think it needs to be rebooted. I like the new young cast.

I don't think it "needs" to jump time either, or even stay in the 80s per se.

Most CBM's have a more modern setting, mostly because of the technology used. In X-Men, the technology is so far ahead that, outside of the fashion people are wearing and maybe a historical-figure cameo here and there, the could really be set in any time.

Just give them all a bit more modern/generic clothes and then just never mention what time period it is or isn't in. If the film and story are good enough, people won't ask as many questions lol

 

[Smilodon]

I'm that person.

I've read a lot of comics with the X-Men interacting with the other superheroes and I personally prefer them on their own. I hate when Shield keeps showing up, or Spider-Man will appear out of nowhere. Like there were times that it was kinda cool, like X-Men working with the Avengers/Fantastic Four during the Onslaught saga but the X-Men world is just too big. And the other cross-overs like Avx, Black Vortex were just meh to me.

If Marvel gets the right (I hope they will soon!), I hope X-Men is set in a separate universe.

Like I said in the rest of my post, I don't see the issue with these films as the fact that they're not interacting with the MCU, just that that the film quality and amount is inconsistent. These things aren't automatically fixed just because they are part of the MCU. They need to make better films more frequently and that's something that can be done on their own. So yes, I'm agreeing with what you're saying. (Besides the whole MS taking control, it's clear that we want their creative people and not their universe so might as well try and find our own creative people)

I just said that Logan and Cap however would be interesting to see interact on screen though just because?

 

[marvelrobbins]

I don't think it needs to be rebooted. I like the new young cast.

I don't think it "needs" to jump time either, or even stay in the 80s per se.

Most CBM's have a more modern setting, mostly because of the technology used. In X-Men, the technology is so far ahead that, outside of the fashion people are wearing and maybe a historical-figure cameo here and there, the could really be set in any time.

Just give them all a bit more modern/generic clothes and then just never mention what time period it is or isn't in. If the film and story are good enough, people won't ask as many questions lol

I have zero intrest in any reboot eather by fox or fox/disney.DOFP erasing of much the X-Men films was about as far as i will go but that's an entire different issue me getting tired of studio reboots.

They need to stop worrying about other studios and just do their take on
X-men.

It reallyisn't as bound down in past as some think.very little In APocalypse
was really 1980's apart from fashion and return of the jedi in theaters.

For next film they would be served well by saying it's a few years later but never mention the year.The original trilogy never mentioned year main events were taking place in.

Being able to cross over X-Men and deadpool isn't top concern of mine especilly since if they want to be comic accurate deadpool mostly interacted with X_force not X-Men.And deadpool sequel and wolverine film are leading to X-force.

 

[mightiest_mortal]

Being able to cross over X-Men and deadpool isn't top concern of mine especilly since if they want to be comic accurate deadpool mostly interacted with X_force not X-Men.And deadpool sequel and wolverine film are leading to X-force.

Also... because Deadpool was more of a parody of CBMs than a part of the universe. People keep saying Colossus was perfect in it but, apart from his appearance, he was pretty clearly just a one-dimensional stooge for Deadpools jokes.

 

[marvelrobbins]

Also... because Deadpool was more of a parody of CBMs than a part of the universe. People keep saying Colossus was perfect in it but, apart from his appearance, he was pretty clearly just a one-dimensional stooge for Deadpools jokes.

we agree.Deadpool was both part of X-Men universe but also taking piss out
of genre.X_men especilly COlossus were butt of jokes in film.now that is
fine for deadpool solo film but that isn't how X-Men should be done.

Colossus praise was due to colorful costume and having better CGI for armor.
probally for russian accent too.but colossus role really was to be punchline for deadpool and be punching bag for villains in third act.NTW was more useful against villains than Colossus

While i place deadpool on list of good X-men related films it's at bottom of
the list.

as for Tim Miller ever doing X-Men film let's talk after we see cable In Deadpool II as well as domino if the rumors are true.If they are different
from colossus in not being jokes then let's have a discussion.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

AOS for one and the reaching going on. I can assure you, Fox lawyers will be making calls if mutants are in the MCU, even if its on a show that hardly anyone including The Russos or even Feige watches or cares about.

FOX doesn't own the concept of mutants.. just the name (and only when applied to marvel characters)

Scorch really was perfectly described as a mutant.. they just didn't use the word

that also being said... the origins of Wanda and Pietro's powers were also left incredibly vague... why were they the only test trials that garnished them powers? only survivors? how did the staff give them powers to begin with? why did 2 biological twins gain 2 very different abilities? etc...

they left some stuff vague so if things were to change it could later be explored.

 

[Havok83]

I really dont see why it would be so hard to introduce mutants into the MCU. Lets say Marvel got the rights. Just do, 2 or 3 X-men films in a seperate universe. Use that to establish the characters and concepts and after that adapt Secret Wars to the big screen where the X-men and the MCU collide. The fallout of that would be the X-men universe being destroyed and those characters incorporated into the MCU we already know with new mutants popping up in the aftermath like after AvX

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Why are some so obsessed with this hypothetical situation?

the notion is fun, but MR is so fearful of it he's basically kept this discussion going for so long... lol

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I really dont see why it would be so hard to introduce mutants into the MCU. Lets say Marvel got the rights. Just do, 2 or 3 X-men films in a seperate universe. Use that to establish the characters and concepts and after that adapt Secret Wars to the big screen where the X-men and the MCU collide. The fallout of that would be the X-men universe being destroyed and those characters incorporated into the MCU we already know with new mutants popping up in the aftermath like after AvX

honestly that's the more complicated route....

whats funny is people can't grasp mutants just now appearing in the MCU in the 21st century... but can buy them first appearing and going public in the X-men films in 1963... when they've been around for hundreds of years prior...

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Super powered individuals are already viewed with fear and suspicion in the MCU. Inhumans are treated pretty much exactly like mutants, with attempts to regulate and isolate them (and right-wing vigilante groups training to murder them). Jessica Jones had to deal with hatred towards supers. Even the Avengers are having problems with it as shown in Civil War.

It isn't like the public adores other superheroes while hating mutants.

 

[GuestStar2004]

honestly that's the more complicated route....

whats funny is people can't grasp mutants just now appearing in the MCU in the 21st century... but can buy them first appearing and going public in the X-men films in 1963... when they've been around for hundreds of years prior...

1963 was much more a time of discovery then 2016, even gender and race were very taboo in the 60s compared to now.

so yeah it probably is more acceptable in 1963 then it would be now in 2016 and the inhumans were obviously created so thats their excuse.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

1963 was much more a time of discovery then 2016, even gender and race were very taboo in the 60s compared to now.

so yeah it probably is more acceptable in 1963 then it would be now in 2016 and the inhumans were obviously created so thats their excuse.

discovery or not.. there were still people running around with superhuman abilities prior. and the movies have made no mention if the amount of mutants has increased or not.

taboo doesn't mean people weren't around.

 

[GuestStar2004]

taboo doesn't mean people weren't around.

The world is much different to what it was in 1963, thats what i am getting at, you can probably believe more that mutants could secretly existed in the 60s then you can in the world we live in now.