BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 2

[Wylie Times]

And it's sad that instead of discussing the movie some are still falling back on talking about other posters.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Completely disagreed. This movie is poorly written. I'm so completely sick of people blaming the audience for not understanding what the film makers were trying to convey. That's on them for making a muddled, ineffective story. Note that Nolan never had this issue, and all three of his Batman movies were more thematically complex and character-driven than anything in BvS.

Funny, I can't count how many times:

"You don't get it"

"You weren't paying attention"

"It's too smart for you"

"Audiences are dumb"

"You have to see it twice"

are used as EXCUSES for BAD STORYTELLING with this movie. And I've only ever seen comic book movie fans or Twilight-esque young adult book fans use these as valid "explanations." They did it for SM3, they did it for MOS, they did it for Green Lantern. Hell they even did it for TDKR.

 

[Cats]

Surely the point here is that if you're going to go off book with your interpretation of a character the way Snyder has with Batman, then you also have to re-lay the groundwork of his backstory, rather than relying on the audience's knowledge of other versions of the character? Otherwise it's the wrong backstory for the Batman you're watching.

Snyder did lay the groundwork for a different Batman, as was covered in several chats Bruce had with Alfred about him changing his methods, becoming more brutal. This Batman needed that short introduction. But Alfred hasn't changed, so I don't see what the issue is about needing to reintroduce Alfred.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ I'll just say this here. If BVS DIDN'T HAVE ISSUES, it wouldn't be struggling financially. I don't think this is the modern day Blade Runner. On the other hand, I don't think this is The Phantom Menace, either. At the end of the day, I think it's an average movie with subpar characterizations. I think if the plot was tidier and Eisenberg did better, this would be critically well received by Snyder Standards (low 60s)

 

[Aquafinn90]

Completely disagreed. This movie is poorly written. I'm so completely sick of people blaming the audience for not understanding what the film makers were trying to convey. That's on them for making a muddled, ineffective story. Note that Nolan never had this issue, and all three of his Batman movies were more thematically complex and character-driven than BvS.

Not its not poorly written. ALL the information you need is right there. I am so completely sick of people blaming the writing for not understand what is going on this movie. It's not very complicated. There was nothing muddled about it. Its people choosing not to pay attention to the information presented right before their eyes.

 

[javonstokess]

I keep hearing this issue with editing but never hear of any specific scenes. Could you elaborate?

No problem.

A movie should have a "flow" to it. Scenes moving in a logical manner consistent with time. BvS is very choppy, with quick cuts that don't seem to have a plan to them or logic behind them.

One example:

Spoiler

]Batman turns on the bat signal to basically call Superman out. Okay... then you have Lois talking to Luthor, Superman saving Lois, Superman talking to Luthor, Lois at the daily planet, Wonder Woman looking at an email that Batman was somehow able to send while standing their waiting THEN you have Superman show up. So Bruce was just standing their this whole time? No police to show up and arrest him (seeing as how Batman is, in this universe, a wanted vigilante)

Another example:

Spoiler

Bruce is in the cave and just stares for a long period at the Bat suit. No particular reason in the story, he just stares at it.

One more example:

Spoiler

The beginning of the movie is literally a chopped up montage of clips but there is no really flow behind it. You're just jumping around spastically when you should be establishing the story.

Once again, these are just my opinion, but I spent 4 years at SCAD studying film and Snyder makes some of the same mistakes that the teachers harped on repeatedly.

 

[Supernova]

Exactly this. It's just bad filmmaking when you're telling a new/original story.

You know in the opening scene when bruce was running through the streets, in the background there was a hot dog vendor selling dogs and burgers. I wanna know how he got there and how he obtained his permit to sell on the street.

 

[Aquafinn90]

Funny, I can't count how many times:

"You don't get it"

"You weren't paying attention"

"It's too smart for you"

"Audiences are dumb"

"You have to see it twice"

are used as EXCUSES for BAD STORYTELLING with this movie. And I've only ever seen comic book movie fans or Twilight-esque young adult book fans use these as valid "explanations." They did it for SM3, they did it for MOS, they did it for Green Lantern. Hell they even did it for TDKR.

Except that its true. Nobody is pulling information out of thin air. Its literally all right there.

 

[matt47]

He could be a distant relative. He could be a sub. He could be a Wayne indentured servant. He could be a mechanic. He could be freaking anything. Who knows if they don't say so?

What kind of a relative would call him "Master Wayne".

 

[Poni_Boy]

^ I'll just say this here. If BVS DIDN'T HAVE ISSUES, it wouldn't be struggling financially. I don't think this is the modern day Blade Runner. On the other hand, I don't think this is The Phantom Menace, either. At the end of the day, I think it's an average movie with subpar characterizations. I think if the plot was tidier and Eisenberg did better, this would be critically well received by Snyder Standards (low 60s)

Agreed. Polish the characters, streamline the story, trim the fat, and fix the villains(s) and this would have been a very enjoyable movie for the masses.

 

[Wylie Times]

Batman's had 8 films since '89, he's had cartoons all to himself, shared cartoons, 3D animation, comics, critically acclaimed game series etc and Alfred's been in every single one. Just the talk generated from all that content, not to mention all the youtube channels, jokes, memes and what-have-you-nots on the internet is enough to get word around on who this Alfred character is. In a sense, he is part of our pop culture scene, even though he got weaseled in because of Batman. It's not BvS' job to cater to people who are this uninformed, or are unable to make a simple deduction based on dialogue in a film. Even Marvel movies occasionally throw in new characters without needing to read their entire profiles to its audiences. If people are interested, they will do their homework. That's the movie industry of the 21st century.

No it's not....

I've never seen a Mad Max movie before Fury Road. I didn't have to do any "Homework" to watch, understand, and enjoy the movie.

Anybody could watch Jurassic World and enjoy it with watching the previous films.

You can name dozens of movie franchise were a person can watch after the first, second, third, or fourth film and not need to do any "homework" to know what's going on.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Agreed. Polish the characters, streamline the story, trim the fat, and fix the villains(s) and this would have been a very enjoyable movie for the masses.

That would require actually CARING about the story

BvS is more Sucker Punch than Watchmen.

 

[Greens]

Not its not poorly written. ALL the information you need is right there. I am so completely sick of people blaming the writing for not understand what is going on this movie. It's not very complicated. There was nothing muddled about it. Its people choosing not to pay attention to the information presented right before their eyes.

Do you honestly believe half of the audience wasn't paying attention? What, they were completing a Sudoku puzzle while exposition was happening? If it were clear as day there wouldn't be this many complaints about it. The movie is hurting financially because it has problems, but you think people just brought it upon themselves?

 

[Poni_Boy]

Except that its true. Nobody is pulling information out of thin air. Its literally all right there.

No, it's really not. It really isn't. Hence the response for this movie. Just look at the response via any non-fanboy aggregation site. Hell look at social media. If only 20% of your movie going audience "gets" the story your're telling (and within that 20% half have different interpretations from the other half) then you failed in telling a coherent story.

 

[Aquafinn90]

Except that the majority of my friends that i saw BVS barely remember MOS(they saw it once when it first came out) and had ZERO problem following this not-hard-to-follow-movie. They don't read comics or know much of anything of the characters outside of this movie.

 

[Flint Marko]

Not its not poorly written. ALL the information you need is right there. I am so completely sick of people blaming the writing for not understand what is going on this movie. It's not very complicated. There was nothing muddled about it. Its people choosing not to pay attention to the information presented right before their eyes.

It is the writing's fault. If so many people are saying the same thing, it can't all be because we're fools with malfunctioning critical faculties.
Explain Doomsday for me then. Please, using just the information presented in the movie, explain what Lex did to make him, how he did it, and most importantly, why he did it. Use only the information in the movie.

 

[Poni_Boy]

That would require actually CARING about the story

BvS is more Sucker Punch than Watchmen.

It's the tone of Watchmen with the off the leash storytelling style of Sucker Punch and using DC characters. Just, why?

 

[javonstokess]

Yes he stole Kryptonite but from Bruce's perspective how does that make him a "huge threat"- Bruce was stealing it FROM him as well.

And forgive me if I missed something here, but how would Bruce have known that it was Lex that blew up the Senate? As for keeping tabs on the metahumans, Bruce is doing the very same with Superman. So how on earth is that an issue?

You mean how could Bruce have known that Lex blew up the Senate even though lowly investigative report Lois Lane figured it out?

And how is Lex NOT a threat by stealing the Kryptonite, the only substance on Earth that can harm or kill the most powerful being on Earth? Not like he could use that stuff to control him or anything right?

 

[Wylie Times]

When it comes to the technical aspects of film making it's not like people are just picking on Zack Snyder. PLENTY of people complained about how the fight scenes in Batman Begins. Folk complained that Captain America TFA relegated most of the action scenes to a long montage. The action scene in Thor that take place on that ice planet were criticized for being too dark and hard to see.

 

[Cats]

Again, so you need to have a preexisting familiarity of the character to know his place in this movie. "Do your homework before you go see this movie" is a really silly excuse to explain bad storytelling.

Go back and read my post. I said that if people are interested in the character, they will go look them up, which = post-movie. I never before suggested anyone to do their homework before, which isn't a bad idea in itself, but isn't something to be expected. Someone who wants to complain and doesn't want to look for the answers themselves isn't going to remember half of it anyway. I know because that's what I do for films I don't care for. Anything that I watch and find interesting, I will do the work myself without complaints. DC wants to gain more interest in its franchises, so this is a good and quick way to introduce many of the lesser known properties. Most people may know who Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman are, but not many people know that the Flash can time travel, or that Aquaman can move at the speed of sound underwater, or even who Cyborg is.

 

[javonstokess]

Frankly, the movie's plot hinges on Superman being dumb enough to leave his alien ship in the middle of Metropolis.

That alone gives it it's weight in gold of stupidity.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Except that the majority of my friends that i saw BVS barely remember MOS(they saw it once when it first came out) and had ZERO problem following this not-hard-to-follow-movie. They don't read comics or know much of anything of the characters outside of this movie.

A lot of people went into Transformers 3 without seeing Transformers 1 or 2 and didn't have a problem understanding the movie. Because some people just go to a movie for turn-your-brain-off escapism. And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[souperman]

wow.

some of you folks must have been a lot of fun to tell bedtime stories to...

M: Once upon a time, there were three bears...

S:Why three bears mommy?

M:I'm getting to that baby.

M:...But the porridge was too hot so they went out for a walk in the forest to let the porridge cool.

S:What's porridge mommy?

M:It's like oatmeal sweetie.

S:Why did they need to let it cool?

M:Because it was too hot .

S: How hot was it mommy?

M:Too hot to eat baby.

S: Why didn't they just put some milk in the porridge to cool it.?

M:Well, I guess they could have.

S: Or they could have blown on it...right mommy?

M: I guess.

S: Why would they go out for a walk to let it cool anyway, by the time they got back it would be too cold to eat... This doesn't make any sense mommy.

M:Well the porridge isn't the point of the story baby, Let me finish and you will understand.

S: But mommy, if there are three different size bowls, each will cool at a different rate and therefore the smallest bowl will be ice cold while the largest one will retain most of its heat due to the laws of thermal dynamics...

M: You're missing the point Sheldon...

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Because it's BATMAN.

.

Okay, you got me. I thought you were serious at first.

 

[Aquafinn90]

Do you honestly believe half of the audience wasn't paying attention? What, they were completing a Sudoku puzzle while exposition was happening? If it were clear as day there wouldn't be this many complaints about it. The movie is hurting financially because it has problems, but you think people just brought it upon themselves?

Its hurting financially because critics had problems with the movie and anybody on the fence about seeing it isn't likely to see it after seeing that it has a 28% on RT. Anybody that has already seen the movie has already paid for it. So unless they are all asking for refunds and getting them, its hurting because people are just not going to see it, at least not as many people as they wanted to.

Financial success doesn't necessarily determine if a movie has problems or not. Especially when its a movie with a budget this large.

And if it is half the audience that is having a hard time understand THE INFORMATION THAT IS RIGHT IN THE MOVIE, then yes, they aren't paying attention. That much is clear.