BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 2

[Greens]

Why did Joker do everything he did in Dark Knight? He kept saying that he didn't plan anything, he just does things. But, that goes against everything in Dark Knight, where a great number of things was just planned to perfection.

He only said that once, and that was in an attempt to manipulate Harvey. It's a half-truth.

 

[gdw]

You mean the obvious threat of Luthor stealing the Kryptonite, blowing up the Senat and keeping tabs on metahumans? My bad, you're right, he should have gone after the guy in the cape who keeps flying around and saving people.

Sorry, but the character "they created for this movie" isn't Batman. Batman, in almost every iteration in media has never been portrayed as this outright murderous, non-logical, lunatic.

Even Burton's Batman wasn't this bad.

Burton's Batman was much more of a direct killer. This Batman, while he certainly does not mind casualties as a consequence, in the course of action, but he's FAR from the Punisher, like some have said. The Punisher goes out of his way to kill badguys. He's never leaving people for the police.

This Batman, at least after he's committed to destroying the Superman (we don't see him cause any casualties before this) doesn't go out of his way to kill, he just doesn't seem to care if it happens in the course of achieving his ultimate goal of preventing Superman's inevitable transformation from the Knightmare. Well, with the exception of the completely pointless and unnecessary shot of him gunning down the guys outside the warehouse.

Again, I think they absolutely could have told the story without it, and I DO object to/disagree with it as a creative decision, but, despite causing a significant amount of death, he's not the mindless psychopath so many are attempting to portray him as.

As for Luthor, when are all those things made clear to Bruce, to be his fault?
Bruce does NOT know that Lex blew up the senate, he believed, as everyone did, that it was entirely the actions of Wallace.

All Bruce knows of Luthor is that he's tracking, and concerned about, meta humans, EXACTLY the same as Bruce.

While he may not TRUST Luthor with the weaponry he may be developing to "defend" against the Kryptonian's, he hasn't seen anything of Luthor's goals (outside of Luthor's desire for power) that indicate he's attempting anything different than himself.

So why WOULD he turn his focus to taking out Luthor, whom he's only seen to be trying to do, essentially, the same thing Bruce is?
He doesn't know that Luthor has ALSO been creating international incidents, and suicide bombers to further his cause, and taint Superman's image.
This criticism makes no sense.

 

[souperman]

If he got info from the mercs then why did he need to hack Lex's servers?



Then how is the whole "Martha" thing possible? This would have to point to Batman being lazy. He would of had to do the most minimal of research into Superman in order to not know his background.

Again Lois Lane Lex Luthor found out...

And Batman isn't the only idiot in regards to that. The U.S. Government should have easily found out who Superman was given that Zod and his troops showed up in his home town and destroyed his mothers home.

Of course... but there are not many movies that hold up to scrutiny and what if scenarios. That's my point. BvS is no worse than many others but is being held to a higher standard.

I hate plot holes. I can always figure "better" ways to fill those holes but it seems for some reason the writers are either lazy as has been said, OR there are reasons that are not readily apparent.

There are many things in BvS I would have done different but I still enjoyed the film.

We don't need to know HOW someone does something, just that he did it. How can Superman fly...oh no...it's ruined.

When did someone find out this information... I don't know, at some point using that huge computer he discovered the key to the story.


It's all very technical, but the important thing is that my movie is safe...

see what I did there...

 

[Dimasusin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta9To-tNEPo

 

[souperman]

None of those answer my question though:

Why does Lex send Superman off to fight Batman, when he has Doomsday to do it for him? Why specifically send Superman to Gotham to fight Batman when Doomsday is right there in the ship, waiting to be used?

he wants to have the worlds savior and hero shamed by KILLING Batman on live TV.

Doomsday is there to kill Superman and save the world from this "killer Superman" who can't be trusted or loved anymore. Lex to the rescue.

 

[Spiderine]

None of those answer my question though:

Why does Lex send Superman off to fight Batman, when he has Doomsday to do it for him? Why specifically send Superman to Gotham to fight Batman when Doomsday is right there in the ship, waiting to be used?

Im thinking it was a lot more fun to Lex watching Superman and Batman beat each other to a bloody pulp. Didn't really matter who lost to Lex.

 

[Flint Marko]

he wants to have the worlds savior and hero shamed by KILLING Batman on live TV.

Doomsday is there to kill Superman and save the world from this "killer Superman" who can't be trusted or loved anymore. Lex to the rescue.

And what happens after Doomsday kills Superman? Where's the "off-switch" for Doomsday?

 

[souperman]

Fury Road is cohesive and focused.

to who?

 

[Flint Marko]

to who?

To the overwhelming majority of the audience, apparently.

 

[souperman]

They wanted water! LOL

I'm in the minority on that film. I didn't connect with it at all. Visually it was cool to look at, but that's where it begins and ends for me.

don't forget, they wanted gas too...so TWO story lines... great film

 

[TripleJ]

He only said that once, and that was in an attempt to manipulate Harvey. It's a half-truth.

Hmm, didn't he repeat it a couple of times?

I gotta watch it again.

Anyways, not everything he did in the movie made sense (it wasn't supposed to anyways, as he wasn't sane).

Same with this Lex. I don't consider him as sane.

 

[souperman]

To the overwhelming majority of the audience, apparently.

hey, fast food is popular, doesn't mean it's good for you...

 

[Flint Marko]

hey, fast food is popular, doesn't mean it's good for you...

I love that we're now comparing a movie that won 6 oscars to fast food.

 

[javonstokess]

he wants to have the worlds savior and hero shamed by KILLING Batman on live TV.

Doomsday is there to kill Superman and save the world from this "killer Superman" who can't be trusted or loved anymore. Lex to the rescue.

WaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitWAIT!

The "worlds savior and hero"? The majority of the people in the movie generally dislike Superman who distrust him.

And how is he shamed by killing Batman on live TV? Um... isn't Batman a wanted vigilante in this film?

And making the "logic leap" that Doomsday was created by Lex to save the world is quote the jump. You can try out for the Olympics with that jump...

 

[Predator jp]

don't forget, they wanted gas too...so TWO story lines... great film

yeah, more the storyline the better. if BvS had 3 more storylines it would've been praised by many...shame

 

[Jumpman]

Jesus, this thread. Talk about ganging up on someone.

 

[gdw]

i thought everyone was talking about the video clips about Cyborg or Aquaman and all that stuff. no?

No, we were talking specifically about the Knightmare scene in this case.

The JL cameos did not bother me at all, but I will admit they were not entirely necessary, however they DO still serve the story in terms setting up Meta-humans in general, and the fact that it's more than just Superman we're dealing with.

Again, including things that do NOT largely service the main story are absolutely fine. That WAS what I was talking about as far as the traditionally TV style storytelling, and how we are not only fine with it, but praise it in TV.
Despite the paradigm shift we've seen in cinematic storytelling, and the blurring of the delineation between tv and film storytelling, some still get obsessed with criticizing it when they see something that services the larger story in a film that we KNOW is PART OF a larger story, just because this is a film, not a TV show.

That's how films in the larger franchises tell stories now, exactly like the TV shows we love for doing the same.

It's literally screaming "We want a cinematic Justice League shared universe, but don't you DARE think about putting things in the film to set one up."

All that said, it STILL does serve the main story as I said, because of the Meta-human angle. Also, one of the most important idioms of film story telling is "show, don't tell." If all they did was have the lines and nods to Lex's "meta-human hypothesis," people would have thrown a conniption about over how they payed all this lip service to meta-humans, but never showed us anything other than WW and Superman.

We'd be sitting here complaining about how they just TOLD us that there's a wider universe out there, but never actually showed us. Then we'd be, rightfully, complaining that the dialogue was just forced in there to service the JL film.

 

[javonstokess]

Here's the deal: I don't really think the Knightmare sequence of the little JL character snippets are all that bad, they are just positioned awkwardly within the film.

Now if they were after the credits, it would have been nice teasers for the JL movie. They just don't "fit" within the movie's narrative.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

I read your post, and it was wrong. Like, dead wrong. You said:

"I don't know what films you've been watching but many good movies (especially based on war time scenarios, and real life stories) do require the additional research. "

"Examples of these are Schindler's List, Empire of the Sun, Flight 93, Saving Private Ryan"

So you're trying to say that people had to do research to understand/enjoy those above movies? Bull ****. So try again.

Saying that Alfred was Bruce's gay lover is akin to not knowing anything about WWII.

 

[TripleJ]

Here's the deal: I don't really think the Knightmare sequence of the little JL character snippets are all that bad, they are just positioned awkwardly within the film.

Now if they were after the credits, it would have been nice teasers for the JL movie. They just don't "fit" within the movie's narrative.

That's something we can agree on.

 

[Wylie Times]

No, we were talking specifically about the Knightmare scene in this case.

The JL cameos did not bother me at all, but I will admit they were not entirely necessary, however they DO still serve the story in terms setting up Meta-humans in general, and the fact that it's more than just Superman we're dealing with.

Again, including things that do NOT largely service the main story are absolutely fine. That WAS what I was talking about as far as the traditionally TV style storytelling, and how we are not only fine with it, but praise it in TV.
Despite the paradigm shift we've seen in cinematic storytelling, and the blurring of the delineation between tv and film storytelling, some still get obsessed with criticizing it when they see something that services the larger story in a film that we KNOW is PART OF a larger story, just because this is a film, not a TV show.

That's how films in the larger franchises tell stories now, exactly like the TV shows we love for doing the same.

It's literally screaming "We want a cinematic Justice League shared universe, but don't you DARE think about putting things in the film to set one up."

All that said, it STILL does serve the main story as I said, because of the Meta-human angle. Also, one of the most important idioms of film story telling is "show, don't tell." If all they did was have the lines and nods to Lex's "meta-human hypothesis," people would have thrown a conniption about over how they payed all this lip service to meta-humans, but never showed us anything other than WW and Superman.

We'd be sitting here complaining about how they just TOLD us that there's a wider universe out there, but never actually showed us. Then we'd be, rightfully, complaining that the dialogue was just forced in there to service the JL film.

That really doesn't serve the story of this film at all. It's also one of the biggest missteps in terms of how the film is edited. It actually dulls some of the tension and suspense of the fight that's about to take place.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Its the exact same crap in SR when Kevin Spacey Luther tells the machine to tell him all about the crystals. And then through no explanation at all Lex knows what the crystals are capable of and how they can create weapons and such. We see and know nothing. Guess they were saving it for the sequel. DOH

We see and know what he was taught by watching him use the knowledge he gained. We see what the crystals did. We see what the birthing matrix did with Zod's body.

 

[Flint Marko]

Saying that Alfred was Bruce's gay lover is akin to not knowing anything about WWII.

Yup, not knowing a detail about a fictional character's mythos is akin to not knowing anything about the deadliest conflict in human history. Spot on

 

[Boom]

Wait. The Superman and Batman fight was televised?

 

[Predator jp]

No, we were talking specifically about the Knightmare scene in this case.

The JL cameos did not bother me at all, but I will admit they were not entirely necessary, however they DO still serve the story in terms setting up Meta-humans in general, and the fact that it's more than just Superman we're dealing with.

Again, including things that do NOT largely service the main story are absolutely fine. That WAS what I was talking about as far as the traditionally TV style storytelling, and how we are not only fine with it, but praise it in TV.
Despite the paradigm shift we've seen in cinematic storytelling, and the blurring of the delineation between tv and film storytelling, some still get obsessed with criticizing it when they see something that services the larger story in a film that we KNOW is PART OF a larger story, just because this is a film, not a TV show.

That's how films in the larger franchises tell stories now, exactly like the TV shows we love for doing the same.

It's literally screaming "We want a cinematic Justice League shared universe, but don't you DARE think about putting things in the film to set one up."

All that said, it STILL does serve the main story as I said, because of the Meta-human angle. Also, one of the most important idioms of film story telling is "show, don't tell." If all they did was have the lines and nods to Lex's "meta-human hypothesis," people would have thrown a conniption about over how they payed all this lip service to meta-humans, but never showed us anything other than WW and Superman.

We'd be sitting here complaining about how they just TOLD us that there's a wider universe out there, but never actually showed us. Then we'd be, rightfully, complaining that the dialogue was just forced in there to service the JL film.

i don't have problems with the fact that those scenes exist, but i do with execution and positioning.