BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 295

[WBwins]

It is very telling that we already have a Batman movie in development with Affleck/John's but not a single peep about Superman.

This to me is the most unforgivable crime Snyder did.Giving the Studio reason to doubt Supermans appeal

 

[Verick808]

It is very telling that we already have a Batman movie in development with Affleck/John's but not a single peep about Superman.

This to me is the most unforgivable crime Snyder did.Giving the Studio reason to doubt Supermans appeal

Snyder didn't do that. People did. Just look up the opinion most people have of Superman. A Gary Sue. Overpowered. Boring. Most of them have never read a comic book. They've never seen anything beyond Donner and the Bruce Timmons Superman. Everyone holding onto a single version of that character and spitting on everything else some ones tries, even if it is true to comics, are the ones making sure Superman stays an icon of the past. Irrelevant to today.

 

[Jaxon]

I see what you're saying. I can envision that as a possibility assuming the right amount of love and effort goes into JL not just by Snyder but also by the rest of the cast and crew. The problem for me is that we've already had two films that were not the critical success that we were hoping for, and at this point I'm struggling to convince myself that he'll get it right the third time. It's not out of the realm of possibilities but I've become more of a realist these days I guess. Sad to say that though I liked MoS and thought BvS was OK I was not wowed by neither. I expected more from WB/DC. My criticism though comes with the best of intentions. I just want to get the conversation going in order to figure out what went wrong and I think a lot of the "negative" posters have the same mindset. Here's hoping that WB takes our criticism into consideration in moving forward from here.

WB's marketing needs the biggest overhaul. If they had 2 trailers with only footage from the first 2 acts and completely hidden Doomsday and WW the response to the movie would have been so much higher.
They showed way too much in the last 2 trailers and tv spots. Should have been 2 trailers plus all the world building stuff like Turkish airlines, Lex talking about rebuilding Metropolis, maybe some reporter interviews with Lex and Bruce and some newspaper articles by Clark about Batman.
If anything can be learnt from Deadpool it's show only a little of the movie and give us more world building things we won't see but help us understand the world a bit more.

 

[WBwins]

Snyder didn't do that. People did. Just look up the opinion most people have of Superman. A Gary Sue. Overpowered. Boring. Most of them have never read a comic book. They've never seen anything beyond Donner and the Bruce Timmons Superman. Everyone holding onto a single version of that character and spitting on everything else some ones tries, even if it is true to comics, are the ones making sure Superman stays an icon of the past. Irrelevant to today.

the Studio had faith in Superman.That's why they Greenlit Mos.When Mos failed,the Studio caved to the negative opinion on Supes,sidelined him for Batman in BvS and have given up on him in solos

Secondly MOST people love Superman.Mos Opening weekend shows u the characters popularity

 

[Micromind]

Snyder didn't do that. People did. Just look up the opinion most people have of Superman. A Gary Sue. Overpowered. Boring. Most of them have never read a comic book. They've never seen anything beyond Donner and the Bruce Timmons Superman. Everyone holding onto a single version of that character and spitting on everything else some ones tries, even if it is true to comics, are the ones making sure Superman stays an icon of the past. Irrelevant to today.

Most people complained that Superman was too powerful, too good, it was difficult to write stories about him, that people never got the feeling that was Superman ever in a danger.

Some even suggested that they should de-power Superman in the movies or make him a flawed character.

Snyder didn't depower him or made him a flawed character (like he did for Batman), so apart from the tone of the movie, not much changed.

 

[Verick808]

Most people complained that Superman was too powerful, too good, it was difficult to write stories about him, that people never got the feeling that was Superman ever in a danger.

Some even suggested that they should de-power Superman in the movies or make him a flawed character.

Snyder didn't depower him or made him a flawed character (like he did for Batman), so apart from the tone of the movie, not much changed.

I missed the part where Superman went back in time using his super speed to stop the destruction in Metropolis. No one is going to say Superman was too strong after watching BvS that's for sure.
And if you told the people complaining about Cavill's Superman that he was not at all flawed and was still too good they would probably spit on you.

 

[NeoRanger]

the Studio had faith in Superman.That's why they Greenlit Mos.When Mos failed,the Studio caved to the negative opinion on Supes,sidelined him for Batman in BvS and have given up on him in solos

Secondly MOST people love Superman.Mos Opening weekend shows u the characters popularity

Most people are conditioned to be interested in Superman, especially with the right promotion, because the character has been ingrained in western pop-culture for longer than any of us here have been alive. Superman Returns did pretty good as well, despite Warner canning the series, because it "underperformed" (which, in their terms, meant that it didn't make them the Uncle Scrooge cash pool they wanted).

Man of Steel didn't fail either, it performed roughly on the same principle. It was a more flawed movie and raised some controversy on different grounds than SR, but it worked for them well-enough.

The burden lies with them, though, because "well-enough" just wasn't... well... enough for them. They wanted the biggest hit they could get and Man of Steel didn't provide. I don't think they lost faith in Superman so much as they never had it in the first place. They just took another risk, since Nolan was done anyway; I mean, they couldn't reboot Batman yet, because if they could, I highly doubt they wouldn't have done that instead of a solo Superman movie. So, when Man of Steel wasn't the home run they wanted, they did what they always do: BATMAAAAAAAAAAAN.

Snyder bears the responsibility for the quality of his product, but in the realm of stupid decisions that burden said products even further, WB is king.

 

[chintai80]

Most people are conditioned to be interested in Superman, especially with the right promotion, because the character has been ingrained in western pop-culture for longer than any of us here have been alive. Superman Returns did pretty good as well, despite Warner canning the series, because it "underperformed" (which, in their terms, meant that it didn't make them the Uncle Scrooge cash pool they wanted).

Man of Steel didn't fail either, it performed roughly on the same principle. It was a more flawed movie and raised some controversy on different grounds than SR, but it worked for them well-enough.

The burden lies with them, though, because "well-enough" just wasn't... well... enough for them. They wanted the biggest hit they could get and Man of Steel didn't provide. I don't think they lost faith in Superman so much as they never had it in the first place. They just took another risk, since Nolan was done anyway; I mean, they couldn't reboot Batman yet, because if they could, I highly doubt they wouldn't have done that instead of a solo Superman movie. So, when Man of Steel wasn't the home run they wanted, they did what they always do: BATMAAAAAAAAAAAN.

Snyder bears the responsibility for the quality of his product, but in the realm of stupid decisions that burden said products even further, WB is king.

seems like big studios like WB, Sony, and Fox got money to burn so they're less considerate and careful when making plans for their superhero franchises...as compared to Marvel studios.

 

[Micromind]

seems like big studios like WB, Sony, and Fox got money to burn so they're less considerate and careful when making plans for their superhero franchises...as compared to Marvel studios.

Strange argument, Sony Pictures is really struggling now, for past few years it was not having a good run, WB is not as big and as successful Studio as it once was when TDK and Harry Potter were going strong, in fact WB went down from No 1 studio to no 4 in terms of it's net worth.

Biggest and the most successful studio right now is Disney, which provides 100 % financial backing and support to Marvel Studios, which they own, just like they now own Lucas Films and Pixar.

 

[jae7702]

everything is subjective, true objectivity does not exist(except in science and even then it can be unclear sometimes) and what we consider objective is only subjectivity in numbers. For example, if enough people thought that the earth was flat that would eventually be the objective norm in perception(as it once was). In this particular case his opinion is shared by many people and is pretty much the norm at this point. You are however entitled to your opinion as is he.

I'd have to disagree with your example. Some things are more subjective than others, for example "escapism" is a very subjective concept. Whereas the world being flat is not.

In order to "escape" an individual may take a long hot bath, another may climb a mountain in -30 degree weather while another may do math equations.

If he had said movies or CBMs are meant to be light hearted, then that is much less subjective than saying they are meant to be an "escape"

BvS to me was an escape, because everytime I watch another campfest CBM, I do not feel "escaped", but rather I feel confined by the imaginary boundaries most CBMs set themselves in.

 

[jae7702]

If you would take the time to step away from your complaining for a minute and actually read some of the warnings I have posted over and over and over in here....I have repeatedly told EVERYONE to stop the complaining about what other posters are saying. It does nothing to progress a constructive conversation and only leads to more fighting name calling and general bad attitudes.

So stop complaining that others are complaining...is that clear enough for you?

Then you are not seeing too good....I suggest the AMAZING NON-BIASED 21ST CENTURY GLASSES.....I have them, they work great....I see offensive mean rude posts for what they are....and those posts come from everyone. The people who don't like the movie say that all the rude talk comes from the people who like it....the people who like the movie say that all the rude talk comes from the people who don't like it. Well guess what....I see people from both sides doing it.

And have you reported those? Please find them and show me, because I would love to infract the person who said that. I have deleted many posts and I have infracted many posters for saying rude things.....but obviously there must be posts I have missed, so please show them to me so that I can take care of them.

I don't want to insult the people who like the movie, so please understand I am talking about some of that group.....my response to the quoted part above is - make me laugh.

They are reporting the insults and offensive things that the people who like the movie are saying to them (even though you say they would never do such a thing).....less of the people who like the movie are reporting insults, instead they repeatedly complain only on the forums that they are being insulted instead of reporting the actual insults.

Right....they are ALLOWED to call him a hack....they are ALLOWED to complain about the dark tone. This is a message board for the discussion of comic book movies. Discussion includes the good and the bad things about the movies. The title of our site is THE SUPERHEROHYPE....it isn't THE YOU CAN ONLY PRAISE THE MOVIES HYPE.

Not every one of those posts are deleted. The ones that say they like the dark tone and then call the Marvel movies "childish" "unintelligent" "made for kiddies" and the like (in other words being rude and insulting the people who like the Marvel tone)...these are the posts deleted.

As I just said above.....saying you don't like the Marvel lighter tone gets nothing deleted....adding in a post like that the insults about the people who like the lighter tone will get your post deleted and maybe an infraction.


Is it that hard to understand....discuss....debate....argue the movie all you want....BUT DO NOT INSULT OTHERS, DO NOT BE RUDE, DO NOT CALL OTHERS NAMES......

Ok C. Lee, I guess we just don't see things the same way. I've had several posts deleted and I see others doing worse but whatevs, I guess I'm not the reporting type, IDK. I didn't feel I antagonized anybody, I never called anyone names.

Most I did was talk about how I dislike Marvels tone, and since you said thats fine (wasn't sure), I will continue commenting on that specific topic as the tone comparisons are an important point of discussion for me.

Maybe you think I'm biased which is fine, I think everyone is biased here, everyone. My bias was in response to something I thought was unfair, I didn't read as many posts as you probably, but it's just something that I noticed in my time here.

I'm still a bit unsure about the rules here, you say that people can call Snyder a hack. Legit question then, can I compare other directors and movies here and call them hacks? Also why can't I call the Marvel movies 'childish'? serious question here, I legitimately think they are childish, I mean their target demographic is much lower than the DCEU.

If the DCEU can be called dour, joyless and bland then why can't the MCU be called childish, immature and campy? If it's because this is the BvS board and you do not want things to go off topic then I understand.

I just want a clear ruleset, because lately most of my posts have been deleted and honestly I don't think I did what you described.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Superman III.

Superman IV.

Superman Returns.

None of them well-made, none of them particularly well-received. Public perception of a character tied to such big a brand trumps fans' personal feelings about adaptation accuracy. The primary tonal complaint comes in the form of "the movie is joyless", not that Superman isn't inspirational.

The last near universally well-liked Superman movie came out 36 years ago. Is it any wonder why the character as a poor reputation with movies like that? The last FIVE Superman movies have all had major problems connecting with audiences.

 

[Zordan]

MoS
Stayed hidden all his life
helped only when he had no choice
Chooses to give himself up to Zod
Defeats Zod
Decides to start a life as a journalist in order to find situations where he can help

BvS
Helps people willingly
Has a crisis of faith due to the way he is treated
Overcomes his doubt
Sacrifices his life to save everyone


No development? You kidding, that's more than any Marvel character over 12 movies.

#feeltheburn

 

[Zordan]

Some people here just waited for this movie to have some flaw to suck the life of it and to feed of that in next 6 moths and to crap all over it here, on its own forum...

but they still now that these characters are the first two, the best two and which ever characters they like would never be Batman and Superman.

namaste weeniesmokers.

 

[NeoRanger]

The last near universally well-liked Superman movie came out 36 years ago. Is it any wonder why the character as a poor reputation with movies like that? The last FIVE Superman movies have all had major problems connecting with audiences.

Likely because the people making these movies have problems understanding how to connect the character with audiences. Either they're trying too much to 'modernise' (as with Man of Steel) or they retread similar ground (as with Superman Returns).

It's kind of a pity, because Superman has remained into the pop-culture via TV (both Lois & Clark in the '90s and with Smallville during the entire last decade). Now, I'm a fan of all the deep themes that can be tied to the character, but it's probably wiser to launch a new Superman series (or at least pick up in this one) with something far simpler. I mean, whatever you think of the aforementioned TV shows (and I will blast Smallville for its crap any day with glee), they found a fairly sizeable audience for a reason.

There's a lot of source material from Byrne's Man of Steel down to Morrison's recent-ish Action Comics to draw from and make it work.

 

[DeadStroke]

WB's marketing needs the biggest overhaul. If they had 2 trailers with only footage from the first 2 acts and completely hidden Doomsday and WW the response to the movie would have been so much higher.
They showed way too much in the last 2 trailers and tv spots. Should have been 2 trailers plus all the world building stuff like Turkish airlines, Lex talking about rebuilding Metropolis, maybe some reporter interviews with Lex and Bruce and some newspaper articles by Clark about Batman.
If anything can be learnt from Deadpool it's show only a little of the movie and give us more world building things we won't see but help us understand the world a bit more.

So much truth in this..

 

[Corko]

Personally one of the reasons I really like Man of Steel is because it got me interested in Superman. I had only seen him in glimpses of that old Superman movie where he flies around around the world so fast it reverses time. No offense to fans of that movie but it always made Superman seem so ancient, ancient and unrelatable. Superman Returns completely passed me by. I had never heard of that movie until I came on here and it came out right in the middle of my childhood. I didn't go to see Man of Steel because no one I knew had any interest in that character. Its only when the trailers for Batman v Superman came out that I decided to go back and watch it and while I admit its not perfect it did its job in showing me what a great character Superman is and just how impressive his superpowers were. I had never taken his powers seriously as I'd only seen them in outdated CGI in the old movies. So people can complain about Warner Bros. throwing in Batman but I love that decision as it got me interested in an amazing character who now stands proud behind Batman as my second favourite superhero of all time.

 

[Supernova]

I think they started marketing way too early for this, a year in advance is way too long to promote a comicbook film. People get burned out from the marketing. If this film had come out last summer **** it was suppose too I have a feeling it would have had a chance to hold more back.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

If it came out last year, it would've lost a lot of money.
And the DCEU would truly die.

#feeltheburn

Nu-uh.

 

[jae7702]

Personally one of the reasons I really like Man of Steel is because it got me interested in Superman. I had only seen him in glimpses of that old Superman movie where he flies around around the world so fast it reverses time. No offense to fans of that movie but it always made Superman seem so ancient, ancient and unrelatable. Superman Returns completely passed me by. I had never heard of that movie until I came on here and it came out right in the middle of my childhood. I didn't go to see Man of Steel because no one I knew had any interest in that character. Its only when the trailers for Batman v Superman came out that I decided to go back and watch it and while I admit its not perfect it did its job in showing me what a great character Superman is and just how impressive his superpowers were. I had never taken his powers seriously as I'd only seen them in outdated CGI in the old movies. So people can complain about Warner Bros. throwing in Batman but I love that decision as it got me interested in an amazing character who now stands proud behind Batman as my second favourite superhero of all time.

Good post, I'm guessing your a bit on the younger side. I think older fans really overestimate how relevant Superman is with the under 25 crowd. Younger folks don't read comics much anymore and all of what they know about DC/Marvel is from movies. Younger people these days are more into anime (Naruto, Pokemon, Avatar: the last airbender, etc) than comic book characters like Superman. I'm willing to bet in your circle of friends your age, there are very few people who are real Superman fans, if any.

It's hard for the over 35 crowd to realize that Superman is not as popular with this new generation, and even more than that, many of them find him unappealing as a fictional character. Some older fans think they can recreate Donners Superman today and it would have the same impact that it did for our generation.

I'm glad MoS and BvS was able to make you a Superman fan, and I hope other young people can have the same experience and a new generation of Superman fans can be created.

 

[Aquafinn90]

Good post, I'm guessing your a bit on the younger side. I think older fans really overestimate how relevant Superman is with the under 25 crowd. Younger folks don't read comics much anymore and all of what they know about DC/Marvel is from movies. Younger people these days are more into anime (Naruto, Pokemon, Avatar: the last airbender, etc) than comic book characters like Superman. I'm willing to bet in your circle of friends your age, there are very few people who are real Superman fans, if any.

It's hard for the over 35 crowd to realize that Superman is not as popular with this new generation, and even more than that, many of them find him unappealing as a fictional character. Some older fans think they can recreate Donners Superman today and it would have the same impact that it did for our generation.

I'm glad MoS and BvS was able to make you a Superman fan, and I hope other young people can have the same experience and a new generation of Superman fans can be created.

I'm one of those too. I hated Superman for the longest time, thought he was completely uninteresting etc. MOS made me a HUGE fan, I'm 25 for the record.

 

[JOE]

MoS
Stayed hidden all his life
helped only when he had no choice
Chooses to give himself up to Zod
Defeats Zod
Decides to start a life as a journalist in order to find situations where he can help

BvS
Helps people willingly
Has a crisis of faith due to the way he is treated
Overcomes his doubt
Sacrifices his life to save everyone


No development? You kidding, that's more than any Marvel character over 12 movies.

I think your post is longer than Cavill's combined lines in BvS and MOS...

 

[Steamteck]

Well, a lot of people are saying it. I find no substance in this film. The characters are all cardboard cutouts that I had absolutely no connection with. It's hard to get emotional about [blackout]Superman's death[/blackout] when I had no emotional investment in the character during the film.

I honestly don't understand how they didn't connect with you. Things like this may be the crux of the disconnect between those who liked and disliked the film.

I hope my example doesn't invalidate because I know very unpopular but part of my issue with TDK was just that. Not being able to connect the the characters so for example, I really didn't care when not-Rachel got blown up.

Snyder seems REALLY good at connecting with some folks but leaves others very cold and from just my local friends Nolan actually has this problem also except for him he manages to connect with a solid majority. I understand thelove he gets for his films because I have that for Snyder's work but others obviously he just doesn't speak to.

Anyway , my hairbrained theory why everyone's so crazy about this stuff.

 

[Steamteck]

Good post, I'm guessing your a bit on the younger side. I think older fans really overestimate how relevant Superman is with the under 25 crowd. Younger folks don't read comics much anymore and all of what they know about DC/Marvel is from movies. Younger people these days are more into anime (Naruto, Pokemon, Avatar: the last airbender, etc) than comic book characters like Superman. I'm willing to bet in your circle of friends your age, there are very few people who are real Superman fans, if any.

It's hard for the over 35 crowd to realize that Superman is not as popular with this new generation, and even more than that, many of them find him unappealing as a fictional character. Some older fans think they can recreate Donners Superman today and it would have the same impact that it did for our generation.

I'm glad MoS and BvS was able to make you a Superman fan, and I hope other young people can have the same experience and a new generation of Superman fans can be created.

My entire 25 year old daughter's friends and crowd and huge nerds and comic fans and even play a pen and paper superhero RPG which I GM twice a week but were just not interested in Superman at all except the Timm cartoons until the Snyder stuff. Huge fans of Batman and Wonder Woman beforehand though.

Only complaint I got about the film from them was the transition of Batman from foe to friend was too abrupt for them. Everyone wants to see the ultimate cut to see if its a little more fleshed out.

 

[Mjölnir]

MoS
Stayed hidden all his life
helped only when he had no choice
Chooses to give himself up to Zod
Defeats Zod
Decides to start a life as a journalist in order to find situations where he can help

BvS
Helps people willingly
Has a crisis of faith due to the way he is treated
Overcomes his doubt
Sacrifices his life to save everyone


No development? You kidding, that's more than any Marvel character over 12 movies.

He always helped people willingly, it was just his father trying to hold him back.

Revealing yourself to the world is not character progression, that's just the origin (and for most heroes, as there aren't really any heroes that stay hidden in these universes) since he doesn't become Superman until the latter part of MoS.

Superman sacrificing himself is not a big progression for the character as he's been willing to take risks to save others since he was a kid. He didn't intend to die, he just took a big risk. Despite all the brooding, and a couple of poorly constructed scenes that might make things seem differently, he's a good person.

But you expose yourself as someone that clearly just want to take a jab at Marvel. Thor does more than all of this in his first movie alone, and he's not the most progressed character in the MCU at this point.