BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 295

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No problem. :)

And I'll certainly admit things would have been much easier for us if BvS had been met with universal jubilation and praise, lol.

:wow: More mods trolling and piss taking! That's it, I'm calling Zack Snyder! :cmad:




:o:cwink: I'm being very careful to let you know I'm joking :gngl:
 
Superman is still doing the same thing he's always done - save people, but look really conflicted and talk about how he's really conflicted even though he's still going to save people every time. Yawn.
 
Superman is still doing the same thing he's always done - save people, but look really conflicted and talk about how he's really conflicted even though he's still going to save people every time. Yawn.

Maybe he should get damaged tattooed on his forehead...you know...because he's messed up.
 
I agree that it could be amazing but I've gotten my hopes up twice now and was let down. I'm excited for suicide squad and WW but I can't say I'm as confident in them as I once was.
In regards to your explanation of Superman, I guess thats just not an approach I think works when you're two movies in and then decide to
kill him off. The death means nothing because I don't care about Superman. In the months leading up to the release and the rumors were flying about, Supermans death was mentioned more than once. Each time I said that it'd be a huge mistake and I feel I was right.

I do see where yourself and fans are coming from on all sides with this, it's always going to be divisive as well. Maybe I'm just lucky with how my mind works (some would say I'm not haha) in the sense I'm very open to seeing things done differently, give a character or story as much range as possible, show me something I haven't seen, challenge me. I suppose it's why I love art in the first place.
 
Superman is still doing the same thing he's always done - save people, but look really conflicted and talk about how he's really conflicted even though he's still going to save people every time. Yawn.

And in BvS other people do more talking for him than he does on his own.
 
Just like Craig's James Bond, there's gonna be at least 4 films of origin story for Superman. Think about it...
 
Saw the movie for a third and final -until the UC comes out- time.

Look, sorry, but I can't not love a good bit of this movie. There's just too much good in it for me to dismiss it.

There's also a lot of bad in it and after three viewings, I now have a good handle on things that could be changed in this same material (meaning without rewriting/reshooting it).

I've said it before, the opening scene with the Wayne murders shouldn't open the movie. With each viewing I find this scene less and less important. The movie should've instead opened in the Metropolis incident.

The scene in Africa is OK. I'm still not sold on Superman bashing a guy through walls, but it's okay.

I have a good handle on the editing. It wouldn't be perfect, but it should focus on Superman/Clark for the first half hour, then switch to Batman for the next half-hour. It would create consistency for each character's arc/story and fix a few plot holes (like Batman looking for the White Portuguese before Lex has to smuggle it in).

There's a lot of scenes that can be cut, not the least of which are the Batmobile and Batwing sequences. This would solve a whole lot of issues. For one thing, Batman killing. He only kills when inside vehicles (he goes out of his way to not kill anyone in the warehouse brawl), which is confusing and inconsistent. The Batmobile scene is also boring. That aside, trimming the Batmobile scene to not be a chase, but rather a tail furthermore solves the logical inconsistency of Batman trying to steal the Kryptonite when he has already placed a tracker on it. In addition, it solves Superman letting the bad guys go, when he goes after Batman. If there was no explosive pursuit, but Batman only follows KGBeast, Superman has no way of knowing that the others were bad guys when he crashes the Batmobile.

As such, Batman would return to the Batcave and track the signal to LexCorp, without ever having given chase to KGBeast. Again, to make this happen, you needn't reshoot anything, it can be done with simple re-editing.

The Knightmare sequence is too long and too drawn out. That bit with the green lamps alone is completely unnecessary. I'd start the sequence with the Flash and interject some of the bits from Knightmare, then have Bruce wake up. It would cut down the movie's runtime and would be edited like a vision/dream, instead of a 5-minute-sequence that comes out of nowhere and messes with the flow of the narrative, not to mention confuse anyone who's not well-into DC mythology (my friend, once the scene concluded, turned to me and said "I have no idea what the **** I just watched".)

Lex's speech on the helipad, before he sends Superman to fight Batman is Eisenberg's worst performance in the movie. This cannot be fixed, obviously, but without his "MMMMMMMMMM" there, the rest of his performance would actually go better with audiences.

Another thing that's not easily fixed is when he decides to create Doomsday. I understand his plan, but since it's not clear, it would have been better if he started the process AFTER he sent Superman to Batman. Unfortunately, re-arranging the scenes would create a continuity error, as his hand is clearly cut when he confronts Superman at the helipad.

The entire sequence where Bruce looks at the Batman costume, the Robin costume and then takes his car to drive to Lex's party is trailer-material and it's useless. Almost useless; it shows Bruce's reliance on the Bat and how hard it is for him to be Bruce Wayne. However, it's too short and obstructs the narrative flow. Similarly, I really like the scene with Ma on the farm, but it can be easily be removed for the same reason.

Some of the dialogue can be trimmed.

There is no reason why Ma's kidnapping isn't placed AFTER Batman lights up his signal. The way it is, it's confusing and creates the logical question "when and why did Lex have her kidnapped". The scene can easily be switched back-to-back with Lois' kidnapping, after Lex has made the "The Knight is here" phone-call.

Bathroom sink on Superman's head is unnecessary. I don't care how "cruel" Batman has become, if he thinks this is for the future of mankind, his attacks shouldn't be so personal. Cut that bit out and trim his "parents" lines down to him only talking about his own parents. As it is now, it contradicts the resolution of that fight.

The dialogue in the resolution of the fight is terrible. It's not fixed just by re-editing, this would need re-writing and re-shooting. "You're letting them kill Martha". Unless Superman already knew about Bruce's bane, this makes no sense. It should've gone something like:

"My mom... you're letting them kill my mom" Batman hesitates only for a second.
"Save Martha Ke--" Batman starts losing it. He has the Wayne deaths flashbacks. Lois enters, she shoves Batman and shields Superman with her body. Batman repeats "Martha" and Lois spills the beans.

The Justice League Lex files tease can be trimmed and added to the scene where Bruce sees Wondy's picture. That bit with Diana in her bathrobe is out of place. Bad, bad Snyder, that barely qualifies as a post-credit scene.

The ending needs some re-editing, too. Batman on jailed Lex should follow after Bruce's "Men are still good". The funeral scene needs more consistency, it jumps around a lot.

Having said that, there are a few things I noticed a lot more this time around.
I'm pretty sure Lois figured out Lex knows Superman's secret identity, after her conversation with Swanwick. She never says anything to him, which is confusing and makes her look like an idiot.

Also, I love the senate hearing scene at the Capitol. I love the idea that Lex took a piss in a jar and placed it in front of Finch, just to mock her right before blowing her up. It makes me giddy, as an idea. Also, major props to the actress that plays Mercy. She has all but a line in the movie, but in that scene, you can see she figures out that Lex plans to do something terrible. The moment the hearing starts and he's not there, you can see the fear in her eyes.

My last major problem with Snyder is that even though he has improved, he needs to get more passionate performances out of his actors. A lot of the emoting is manufactured, staged. Amy Adams sold the hell out of her grieving scenes, to the best of her ability within the context of the material she was working with, but I needed to see her completely break down. Remember that panel from the comics with Lois holding Superman's dead body? I needed to see that, to see that people in this world don't just feel sad, they understand human pain. You don't need "joy" to relate, you just need humanity.

Sorry, that was a bit longer than I intended it.
 
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I like your optimism, something tells me you know something we don't. Do you perhaps work on those films? If it's just sheer optimism and loyalty I hope you're right. I'm still excited to see what the DCEU has in store for us, it's just that I wished it was better.

I tend to be optimistic most of the time if I can :yay: as far as the DC universe goes, I think it's close to being right (no seriously) and if Snyder and WB take the good things forward and tweak some of the things that need attention, then it should be more than fine. And no, I don't work in the film industry or in a movie related job/field, although I do know people who do.
 
Just want to point out to everyone that the downfall of Superman as a character in the cinematic universe starter in MOS. They ruined Clarks childhood and turns to him into this isolated loner that seemed to have no joy in his life. The one fundamental and consistent thing about Clar Kent is despite anything that happened to him he was a happy and social guy who had a great childhood and made friends. His best friends name was Pete ****ing Ross and his first love was Lana Lang. How can someone with such a joyless life inspire hope and be so optimistic, they ruined the character from the get go. WB should have done a complete revamp and switched things up. Everyone involved in MOS should have been thrown out except the cast, how do you attempt to start a cinematic universe with a dud? Sorry I mean divisive movie, the thought if they threw Batman in then everything would be A ok despite the same people still driving this movie that made the previous one a critical flop.
 
Just want to point out to everyone that the downfall of Superman as a character in the cinematic universe starter in MOS. They ruined Clarks childhood and turns to him into this isolated loner that seemed to have no joy in his life. The one fundamental and consistent thing about Clar Kent is despite anything that happened to him he was a happy and social guy who had a great childhood and made friends. His best friends name was Pete ****ing Ross and his first love was Lana Lang. How can someone with such a joyless life inspire hope and be so optimistic, they ruined the character from the get go. WB should have done a complete revamp and switched things up. Everyone involved in MOS should have been thrown out except the cast, how do you attempt to start a cinematic universe with a dud? Sorry I mean divisive movie, the thought if they threw Batman in then everything would be A ok despite the same people still driving this movie that made the previous one a critical flop.

Superman III.

Superman IV.

Superman Returns.

None of them well-made, none of them particularly well-received. Public perception of a character tied to such big a brand trumps fans' personal feelings about adaptation accuracy. The primary tonal complaint comes in the form of "the movie is joyless", not that Superman isn't inspirational.
 
Just want to point out to everyone that the downfall of Superman as a character in the cinematic universe starter in MOS. They ruined Clarks childhood and turns to him into this isolated loner that seemed to have no joy in his life. The one fundamental and consistent thing about Clar Kent is despite anything that happened to him he was a happy and social guy who had a great childhood and made friends. His best friends name was Pete ****ing Ross and his first love was Lana Lang. How can someone with such a joyless life inspire hope and be so optimistic, they ruined the character from the get go. WB should have done a complete revamp and switched things up. Everyone involved in MOS should have been thrown out except the cast, how do you attempt to start a cinematic universe with a dud? Sorry I mean divisive movie, the thought if they threw Batman in then everything would be A ok despite the same people still driving this movie that made the previous one a critical flop.

You're totally right. You know what really is the nail in Snyder's coffin? Tonight I wanted a Superman fix, so I watched 'Superman Returns' for the first time in ten years.

I hated that movie when it came out, and it's still not very good (all the Lex Luthor stuff is actually pretty great, but Routh and Boswell are terribly miscast).

But the plane rescue sequence is more fun, exciting, funny, and true to Superman than ANYTHING in 'BvS' OR 'MoS'.

WB should hang their heads in shame. And here's a tip for any dopes who want to make a Superman movie: Just listen to the John Williams theme, and work backwards from there. It tells you everything you need to know about Superman.
 
I knew people already pointing this out, and now I'm watching it again,
I'm sad that this exact scene did not happened in the movie (but somehow in the trailer).



Because I think this is BvS' THAT SHOT. :hmr:
Doesn't make me like BvS less, just a bit disappointed. But this shot is so great, memorable and has massive potential to be an iconic shot.
Heck, people already recreate this scene in videos or pictures.

I hope this scene restored in the Director's Cut. :)

So Superhero Feed conducted a poll with over 20,000 votes so far.

38% loved it
45% enjoyed it
12% disliked it
5% hated it
Interesting. I knew people tends to exaggerate everything in internet, but this result so far is surprisingly pleasant.
 
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I don't think it's fair to just close everything out like that. Sure, films were like that. But, things are changing all around.

More films are becoming episodic, and audiences are getting used to that (just like audiences are expecting end credits these days - they understand that it's teases for future movies).

TV shows are also changing. Netflix introduced the whole thing with binge watching...and look where we are now.

(Of course, that's more of an instant gratification than waiting week after week).

Regardless, I think filmmakers can encourage audiences to be more patient, and change how they view these films (or films in general).

After all, things have changed over the decades.

I think you're going to find it very difficult to ever get audiences on board with films that require you to be patient in that way.
 
So Superhero Feed conducted a poll with over 20,000 votes so far on Twitter.

38% loved it
45% enjoyed it
12% disliked it
5% hated it
 
Superman III.

Superman IV.

Superman Returns.

None of them well-made, none of them particularly well-received. Public perception of a character tied to such big a brand trumps fans' personal feelings about adaptation accuracy. The primary tonal complaint comes in the form of "the movie is joyless", not that Superman isn't inspirational.

You named all terrible Superman movies......ok, maybe you have chosen to interpret things differently or just haven't delved deeply into what people's gripe with Snyders Superman is but it goes beyond a joyless movie and it's been highlighted that this Character doesn't exhibit the usual Superman traits and his portrayal overall being a poor interpretation of the character.
 
You're totally right. You know what really is the nail in Snyder's coffin? Tonight I wanted a Superman fix, so I watched 'Superman Returns' for the first time in ten years.

I hated that movie when it came out, and it's still not very good (all the Lex Luthor stuff is actually pretty great, but Routh and Boswell are terribly miscast).

But the plane rescue sequence is more fun, exciting, funny, and true to Superman than ANYTHING in 'BvS' OR 'MoS'.

WB should hang their heads in shame. And here's a tip for any dopes who want to make a Superman movie: Just listen to the John Williams theme, and work backwards from there. It tells you everything you need to know about Superman.

Superman is more than a theme song or a wink and a smile at the camera.
 
You're totally right. You know what really is the nail in Snyder's coffin? Tonight I wanted a Superman fix, so I watched 'Superman Returns' for the first time in ten years.

I hated that movie when it came out, and it's still not very good (all the Lex Luthor stuff is actually pretty great, but Routh and Boswell are terribly miscast).

But the plane rescue sequence is more fun, exciting, funny, and true to Superman than ANYTHING in 'BvS' OR 'MoS'.

WB should hang their heads in shame. And here's a tip for any dopes who want to make a Superman movie: Just listen to the John Williams theme, and work backwards from there. It tells you everything you need to know about Superman.

PREACH. That's exactly what I said couple weeks ago. SR may not have been a great film or even a good one but that plane scene was better than anything the DCEU has had to offer so far. THAT'S SUPERMAN.
 
You're totally right. You know what really is the nail in Snyder's coffin? Tonight I wanted a Superman fix, so I watched 'Superman Returns' for the first time in ten years.

I hated that movie when it came out, and it's still not very good (all the Lex Luthor stuff is actually pretty great, but Routh and Boswell are terribly miscast).

But the plane rescue sequence is more fun, exciting, funny, and true to Superman than ANYTHING in 'BvS' OR 'MoS'.

WB should hang their heads in shame. And here's a tip for any dopes who want to make a Superman movie: Just listen to the John Williams theme, and work backwards from there. It tells you everything you need to know about Superman.

I can't stand what Snyder and crew are doing to the Superman character but nothing on this green earth will ever make me appreciate SR. That film was an abysmal disaster in my opinion and is still ranked lower than MOS and BVS. Although Williams score is the truth I will give you props for that.
 
You named all terrible Superman movies......ok, maybe you have chosen to interpret things differently or just haven't delved deeply into what people's gripe with Snyders Superman is but it goes beyond a joyless movie and it's been highlighted that this Character doesn't exhibit the usual Superman traits and his portrayal overall being a poor interpretation of the character.
I was challenging the notion that Superman's downfall started with Man of Steel and that everyone involved in it should've been booted off the project. It may have rubbed you and a good portion of fans the wrong way, but it did generate interest in the license from the public. Superman's public perception, both as a film franchise and as a character, were dealt a pretty bad blow a very long time ago.
 
I was challenging the notion that Superman's downfall started with Man of Steel and that everyone involved in it should've been booted off the project. It may have rubbed you and a good portion of fans the wrong way, but it did generate interest in the license from the public. Superman's public perception, both as a film franchise and as a character, were dealt a pretty bad blow a very long time ago.

I should have been more elaborate but I was referring to this new cinematic verse that was supposed to have had MOS as the kickstarter. Right of the bat it wasn't received the way it should have been and that really could only spell doom. Despite that I think the public and the fans were pretty forgiving of Snyder and all hoped BVS would be the great game changer but alas sadly that wasn't to be. This cinematic universe is in shambles right now and Snyder remaining will only continue to do further damage.
 
I should have been more elaborate but I was referring to this new cinematic verse that was supposed to have had MOS as the kickstarter. Right of the bat it wasn't received the way it should have been and that really could only spell doom. Despite that I think the public and the fans were pretty forgiving of Snyder and all hoped BVS would be the great game changer but alas sadly that wasn't to be. This cinematic universe is in shambles right now and Snyder remaining will only continue to do further damage.

MoS had a lot of fans. It lost in the box office but it sold almost twice as many copies as Iron Man 3 when it came to home media. Even at the box office it beat every pre-avenger Marvel film. And even some that came after. Deadpool is the only Fox superhero film to make more.
The critics reviewed it negatively but it actually had strong word of mouth. A 65 percent drop but it was against world war z and Monster U in its second week. Thats very good for that kind of competition.My point is MoS was great. BvS not so much but I will never fail to defend Man of Steel.
 
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I tend to be optimistic most of the time if I can :yay: as far as the DC universe goes, I think it's close to being right (no seriously) and if Snyder and WB take the good things forward and tweak some of the things that need attention, then it should be more than fine. And no, I don't work in the film industry or in a movie related job/field, although I do know people who do.

I see what you're saying. I can envision that as a possibility assuming the right amount of love and effort goes into JL not just by Snyder but also by the rest of the cast and crew. The problem for me is that we've already had two films that were not the critical success that we were hoping for, and at this point I'm struggling to convince myself that he'll get it right the third time. It's not out of the realm of possibilities but I've become more of a realist these days I guess. Sad to say that though I liked MoS and thought BvS was OK I was not wowed by neither. I expected more from WB/DC. My criticism though comes with the best of intentions. I just want to get the conversation going in order to figure out what went wrong and I think a lot of the "negative" posters have the same mindset. Here's hoping that WB takes our criticism into consideration in moving forward from here.
 
Superman is still doing the same thing he's always done - save people, but look really conflicted and talk about how he's really conflicted even though he's still going to save people every time. Yawn.

MoS
Stayed hidden all his life
helped only when he had no choice
Chooses to give himself up to Zod
Defeats Zod
Decides to start a life as a journalist in order to find situations where he can help

BvS
Helps people willingly
Has a crisis of faith due to the way he is treated
Overcomes his doubt
Sacrifices his life to save everyone


No development? You kidding, that's more than any Marvel character over 12 movies.
 
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