All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - Part 13

[Anno_Domini]

If Cavill's unconnected, I'm not that bothered. i wouldn't want the shared universe to appear in solo films at all. It's not necessary. But I'm not sure I want to concurrent franchises with different actors portraying the same character.

And this is why I believe Justice League is a bad idea with a new Superman film being made. Warner Brothers should just drop this hopeful dream of catching up with Marvel Studios and only work on solo films. They were fine with Nolan's Batman and I'm sure they'd be fine with Snyder's Superman. Get Wonder Woman down, Flash, maybe even Aquaman, but...I just think a JL idea is not a great idea when it doesn't even seem like WB has a plan happening at all. Or, at least get to work on a JL film when there comes a time when they're not pushing out other CBMs(If they want to work on it after Snyder's purposed Supes trilogy, I'd be for that).

 

[Rust]

If they're even considering not using the same cast for a JL-movie, then it stops here. Just dont bother, WB. You just dont get it.

I'm pretty sure though, that I've read someone on the inside saying that MOS would be the first movie in a shared universe.

 

[ElDuderino]

Yeah, I can't fathom anyone would be dumb enough to even consider not using the same cast.

 

[BH/HHH]

I'm torn with this dual cast thing, how can they hope to spin off Aquaman, Wonder Woman etc if they are using different actors for Superman and Batman. One reasons I'd say this is BS is they've already said the new Batman will debut in JL. I really can see this film going on hold if MOS makes a ton anyway.

 

[kewlmatto]

I'm not as troubled with concurrent universes as others are.

I actually think they should free themselves up to make more good movies and not be a slave to continuity unless they have a director's established series (like Nolan's Batman and Snyder's Superman).

Just make good films. I don't need them to interconnect all of the time. It isn't necessary at all. If that means a good Justice League movie that has nothing to do with MOS, so be it. As long as they hire talent and don't rush it as a phony attempt to cash-in on Avengers hype. Unfortunately that seems to be the case so far.

I've always felt the DCU works better being a bit fragmented anyway.

 

[Project862006]

superman is the hardest super hero to cast yet they want to make it even harder on themselves to not use henry lol

 

[kewlmatto]

superman is the hardest super hero to cast yet they want to make it even harder on themselves to not use henry lol

Getting a great Superman is hard, yes.

But I think Batman is actually more difficult to cast than Superman.

Superman is just having a tough time because of the tastes of general audiences in the last decade or so. I think that's made him harder to cast.

I thought Routh was great casting. The script was the downfall.

I am very much hoping this movie turns it all around though. I think it will.

Either way, with 7 billion people on the planet there are certainly a wealth of great actors out there. WB just need to be willing to look outside of the A-list tunnel most execs get lost in.

Still, I'd be happy for Cavill to be in Justice League too. Either way for me. Just as long as the movie is quality.

I don't want them to sacrifice quality for continuity, which is what happened with a couple of the Marvel films (Iron Man 2 more than anything).

 

[BH/HHH]

I'm not dead against a JLA movie without HC as Supes but I think it does pose a problem to have two Superman on screen at the same time. My only concern was the rumours they want to spin characters off from the JLA movie which the poses a major problem of the two Supermen been in separate universes.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

If they're even considering not using the same cast for a JL-movie, then it stops here. Just dont bother, WB. You just dont get it.

I'm pretty sure though, that I've read someone on the inside saying that MOS would be the first movie in a shared universe.

Exactly how I feel.

 

[Rust]

Yeah well... I just dont get the idea. They cant fail to see the sensible thing in the continuity and the huge opportunity for a fantastic concept. Oh... and the prospect of cashing in on the whole deal.

But then again, I can see them trying to not just rip off the Marvel-recipe. That really is the last thing I want them to do.

I'd still wait with a JL-movie if it were me, and focus on what makes DC/WB strong. Or rather what made the Batman-trilogy strong. Do that with MOS and maybe get a WW- or Flash-movie going after the first MOS.
Then I wouldnt mind a World's Finest-movie getting greenlit in a year or two with a spoonfull of JL thrown in. And maybe let that also serve as a semi-reboot for Batman.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Getting a great Superman is hard, yes.

But I think Batman is actually more difficult to cast than Superman.

Superman is just having a tough time because of the tastes of general audiences in the last decade or so. I think that's made him harder to cast.

I'm sorry, but I just don't think that's true at all.

With Batman, you can throw a whole bunch of brilliant actors names in the hat, who look NOTHING alike... because in all the past Batman films, there has been no consistency between each actor's looks. Even the hair colour doesn't seem to matter.

But with Superman, you're trying to match a lot of physical traits. Because this is the guy who doesn't wear a mask. His basic features are completely recognisable.

So you're looking for the strong jawline. You're looking for the height and the ability to bulk out, dark features (or at least someone who wouldn't look odd with their hair and features darkened), handsome with an air of gentleness (you don't wanna cast someone who looks stern or mean), etc.

It's just a lot harder.

I mean, you only had to spend a bit of time in the Supes casting thread before Cavill was cast to see that. With every suggestion, even when half decent, there was usually a massive flaw.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Just because there hasn't been a massive consistency between actors cast as Batman does not mean the role is easy to cast. The inconsistent quality of the films between those actors speaks for itself.

Batman must have a quiet darkness about him, or at least optimism plagued by loss. Keaton had the former, Clooney had a touch of the latter, and Bale had both. The actor must be able to appear as the benevolent, charming, air head Bruce Wayne and the sadistically sinister plague of the underworld that is the Batman.

It's a hard role to get right. Equally so to Superman.

Simplifying the role so much is like saying if you're Superman you don't need a massive amount of acting skill, just pretend to be Chris Reeve and you're good to go.

 

[protocida]

It's just a rumor.

WB wants to create a movieverse for years, and couldn't because Christopher Nolan's Batman was making money and "wouldn't fit in a world with other superheroes". Now that's out of the way, and Superman hardly has that excuse to set him apart from others.

They won't randomly throw that idea out of the window and go back to a movie multiverse.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Just because there hasn't been a massive consistency between actors cast as Batman does not mean the role is easy to cast. The inconsistent quality of the films between those actors speaks for itself.

Batman must have a quiet darkness about him, or at least optimism plagued by loss. Keaton had the former, Clooney had a touch of the latter, and Bale had both. The actor must be able to appear as the benevolent, charming, air head Bruce Wayne and the sadistically sinister plague of the underworld that is the Batman.

It's a hard role to get right. Equally so to Superman.

Simplifying the role so much is like saying if you're Superman you don't need a massive amount of acting skill, just pretend to be Chris Reeve and you're good to go.

Well you should know me a little better by now than to think that's what I was saying

I don't think any idiot could play Batman. Of course they have to have some acting talent. What i'm said is that many many GREAT actors in Hollywood could be considered the role because the casting of Batman is not as confined by looks.

Casting Superman is equally as hard when it comes to getting the personality and ability to act the character well. But it has the ADDED difficulty of also trying to find a guy who fits all the physical/visual requirements too.

 

[solidsnake86]

I think the whole justice league idea is flawed starting with the reasoning that using a different batman is somehow a good idea. While everyone can debate the quality of Nolan's films the bottom line is that they were hugely successful with the general audience. I don't necessarily buy that a batman "closer to the comics" is going to be a guaranteed hit because frankly we already saw that with the previous series and we all saw how that turned out given the quality of stories.


They spent the better part of 8 years building bale's batman and a realistic take that I think they need to give the character a rest for a bit before you do another version. It would be like marvel not using RDJ's iron man. I think both Iron Man movies had a "realistic take" yet it was not a problem putting him in the avengers.

Nolan's batman is the best thing they have going for them, its silly to throw that out. (Yes they probably will regardless)

Let's say MOS is successful, would you really not want to use Cavill. Same idea as batman, its not easy to create hugely successful films. Heck, you just have to look at how many have cracked the 200 millon domestic and you'll see its a very small list.

 

[charl_huntress]

I am on the fence when it comes to WB/DC connecting their universes. One thing I have noticed with Marvel is they were hell bent to get their universe out there. They didn't let something like the performance of TIH and the falling out with Norton stand in their way either. On the other hand, WB/DC's history with the management of their properties makes me believe they do not have the same unifying force that Marvel has to actually make this possible. I wish they did, but I don't think the structure of DCE will ever really allow this to be possible.

 

[solidsnake86]

I am on the fence when it comes to WB/DC connecting their universes. One thing I have noticed with Marvel is they were hell bent to get their universe out there. They didn't let something like the performance of TIH and the falling out with Norton stand in their way either. On the other hand, WB/DC's history with the management of their properties makes me believe they do not have the same unifying force that Marvel has to actually make this possible. I wish they did, but I don't think the structure of DCE will ever really allow this to be possible.

At some point though you wonder if marvel can sustain it. If they start having a few bombs in a row you have to wonder at what point is disney going to step in and do something about it because it begins to affect there bottom line.

One thing that makes the performance of a movie like TIH irrelevant is that they are able to keep there budget in line that they are able to break even. When you go and give a movie like GL a 200 million dollar budget you start setting them up for failure because the film has to be a mega hit.

You have to hand it to marvel, theyve taken big risks and its paid off. They haven't stopped either because that guardians of the galaxy movie IMO looks ridiculous and thats beyond my interest in comics. But the more these comic movies do well its best for the industry as a whole and it also means WB will keep on trying.

 

[charl_huntress]

At some point though you wonder if marvel can sustain it. If they start having a few bombs in a row you have to wonder at what point is disney going to step in and do something about it because it begins to affect there bottom line.

One thing that makes the performance of a movie like TIH irrelevant is that they are able to keep there budget in line that they are able to break even. When you go and give a movie like GL a 200 million dollar budget you start setting them up for failure because the film has to be a mega hit.

You have to hand it to marvel, theyve taken big risks and its paid off. They haven't stopped either because that guardians of the galaxy movie IMO looks ridiculous and thats beyond my interest in comics. But the more these comic movies do well its best for the industry as a whole and it also means WB will keep on trying.

Marvel has set up a huge momentum for their films and that juggernaught doesn't look to be stopping anytime soon. My fear is DC may be too late to jump on this bandwagon if they don't get it together soon and start establishng their own CBM creds outside of the Nolanverse.

I'm with you about Guardians. Since I'm not a Marvel fan I have no interest in that movie, but Marvel and Co. have set up such a neat little universe that I might just see it anyway. To be honest, I have enjoyed all their films...even the ones with characters I thought I would never like. For me, Thor and IM are some of the best they have put out, but all of them were enjoyable...at least to me.

IMO, WB/DC doesn't seem averse to risk. For me the fact they sunk 200 mill into GL proves this. My contention is they lack strategy which Marvel has in spades.

On a side note, I have been hoping Marvel doesn't produce any real stinkers because I fear that may signal the end of the CBM run that's been going on for the past ten years before DC has a chance to capitalize with other characters aside from Bats.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

I think the whole justice league idea is flawed starting with the reasoning that using a different batman is somehow a good idea. While everyone can debate the quality of Nolan's films the bottom line is that they were hugely successful with the general audience. I don't necessarily buy that a batman "closer to the comics" is going to be a guaranteed hit because frankly we already saw that with the previous series and we all saw how that turned out given the quality of stories.


They spent the better part of 8 years building bale's batman and a realistic take that I think they need to give the character a rest for a bit before you do another version. It would be like marvel not using RDJ's iron man. I think both Iron Man movies had a "realistic take" yet it was not a problem putting him in the avengers.

Nolan's batman is the best thing they have going for them, its silly to throw that out. (Yes they probably will regardless)

Let's say MOS is successful, would you really not want to use Cavill. Same idea as batman, its not easy to create hugely successful films. Heck, you just have to look at how many have cracked the 200 millon domestic and you'll see its a very small list.

The problem is that Nolan's universe is grounded, and his Batman/Bruce is so human that his cartilage was already deteriorating because of the work he did as Batman. I can't see that version of Batman being able to take on super villains or interacting with the rest of the JL. They just don't fit in his world, imo.

 

[solidsnake86]

^yet he had his back broken and managed to climb out of the pit and do just fine in the final battle. Its all about making it an issue in the movie, if you draw attention to it, it becomes a problem.

Nolan frames it in "realism" but the movies are far from realistic, you can make it work if you want to. I point to iron man again, there was nothing "fantastic" when it came to the first 2 movies, they were very grounded, yet it worked just fine in the avengers.

Batman is a human character no matter how you craft the story, i don't necessarily think burton's batman would work any better in the justice league than nolan's without people not buying into it. Nolan's batman did some crazy stuff that no human would be able to do. Its all about context.

Realistically batman shouldnt be fighting with the justice league no matter what interpretation unless you give him powers.

 

[charl_huntress]

Bats is a strategist. He usually has more than one trick up his sleeve, whch IMO is why he can be shown to be very dangerous.

 

[BlueLantern]

I don't think they should bother making a Justice League movie until they've done at least one of Flash and Wonder Woman.

Personally I'd love to see Nolan's Bat universe continue uninterrupted for a couple films, Snyder's Superman get a trilogy whilst during the other years Flash/Wonder Woman/Green Lantern get their films in motion. All in a different universe.

Putting them into the same film after that isn't really a problem personally if it's intimated in the JL film that they all occupy different realities. I'd love to see a film where Darkseid merges these realities to ultimately control the entire multiverse, which then results in these lot being brought together.

Insurmountable odds, people you don't know and potentially distrust. I'd be in. Even Bruce Wayne would come out of retirement for such a ride.

 

[Rust]

If they really wanna make something in a different universe with JL, I say screw that and put a different angle on the team-up effort. Go that step further and just make Kingdom Come already. That'd be a welcome approach to Marvel's family-friendly Avengers and it'd stick with WB's darker trademarks.

Maybe KC would work better as a mini-series though, but that'll never happen.

 

[AnneFan]

Bats is a strategist. He usually has more than one trick up his sleeve, whch IMO is why he can be shown to be very dangerous.

Indeed. I don't think Batman would avoid the JLA. He might avoid the spotlight but I think he would probably elbow his way in to a group like that to be their watchdog and because, given his background, I think he'd genuinely believe they're in trouble without his help, powers or no powers. Bruce vowed to war on all criminals, not just criminals in Gotham. If there are bigger threats in the universe that threaten the safety of innocent people (or the entire world), then you can bet he'd want to be a part of bringing them down. Batman offers something to the table as a character in a JLA setup. He's a human among super powered types, has money and resources, is detached and paranoid.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

^yet he had his back broken and managed to climb out of the pit and do just fine in the final battle. Its all about making it an issue in the movie, if you draw attention to it, it becomes a problem.

Nolan frames it in "realism" but the movies are far from realistic, you can make it work if you want to. I point to iron man again, there was nothing "fantastic" when it came to the first 2 movies, they were very grounded, yet it worked just fine in the avengers.

Batman is a human character no matter how you craft the story, i don't necessarily think burton's batman would work any better in the justice league than nolan's without people not buying into it. Nolan's batman did some crazy stuff that no human would be able to do. Its all about context.

Realistically batman shouldnt be fighting with the justice league no matter what interpretation unless you give him powers.

Right, however, Nolan's Universe still has things that I wouldn't want carried over to a connected DC Universe. For example, now he's not even Batman anymore and JGL's character has taken his place. If it's not Bruce Wayne, it's not the true Batman imo. Not to mention he doesn't even have Alfred anymore and even Robin was handled differently(His name is literally Robin?). I want a Batman who fights better than he has been shown to so far, makes all the gadgets himself(Not depending on Lucius), uses Batarangs, has a Batmobile(Not the tumbler or Batpod), villains that are still dark, yet closer to their comic versions(Bane with his venom, a Catwoman who's actually called Catwoman and has her whip, Scarecrow who's not just some guy in a suit with a mask; The only time we saw him full-on Scarecrow was briefly toward the end of Batman Begins... A Two-Face that's not dead, a Bane that's not dead, a Ra's that's not dead, a Talia that's not dead), a Gotham that actually looks like Gotham, etc. These are the things that Nolan's universe did not offer.