All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - Part 3

[El Payaso]

I think if he's flawless from the start then there's very little character development,

If any character is flawless at any point, that's where the possibilities of character development are over.

and it'll be just like Superman Returns where he's gooder than good, and then there's no emotional conflict.

I thought Superman was a deadbeat dad, a stalker, a homewrecker and all of that?

SR provided Superman with emotional conflict. Lois says she doesn't love him and has a family, should he keep trying to win her back? He has a son but can't be with him, Lois, Jason and Richard are in dangher but also is Metropolis, who should I save first?

 

[BlueLantern]

If any character is flawless at any point, that's where the possibilities of character development are over.

I agree. Which is why even if it's selfish ambition at first and then selfless protection eventually, he should still not be the perfect being that he tends to be depicted as.

He needs to flawed, otherwise he isn't human on the inside. That humanity is so key, it's got to be warts and all.

I thought Superman was a deadbeat dad, a stalker, a homewrecker and all of that?

Just when considering Lois. Otherwise he's still everyone's favourite big blue boyscout.

 

[Herolee10]

Personally, i don't think Superman needs to be "arrogant" in order to have a "emotional problem", and that there are other ways of making him emphatic enough towards the audience.

I mean unless I'm mistaken, one of the common fears that Superman has been known to have in his youth was his fear that people wouldn't accept him for who he is and that he'll never really have a place to call his own home.

Then there's always the fear that people would be afraid of him due to his origins and such and that he'll always remain alone forever.

These are very humanistic fears as well and fit someone like Superman in his given situation.

The Kents are considered important in his life not just because they were the ones to find him, but because they were also the ones responsible for giving Clark a great foundation to lean on for morality.

 

[BlueLantern]

Personally, i don't think Superman needs to be "arrogant" in order to have a "emotional problem", and that there are other ways of making him emphatic enough towards the audience.

I mean unless I'm mistaken, one of the common fears that Superman has been known to have in his youth was his fear that people wouldn't accept him for who he is and that he'll never really have a place to call his own home.

Then there's always the fear that people would be afraid of him due to his origins and such and that he'll always remain alone forever.

These are very humanistic fears as well and fit someone like Superman in his given situation.

The Kents are considered important in his life not just because they were the ones to find him, but because they were also the ones responsible for giving Clark a great foundation to lean on for morality.

The problem with that end of emotional conflict is that it verges on him becoming a soppy emo caricature which isn't exactly fun but could always be played on.

And to be honest I'd like to see Superman come across as a seriously pissed off Kryptonian when facing off against Zod and there needs to be a slight arrogance in his abilities.

Having him have a slight sense of superiority would serve a Zod plot well especially since if you then also play on the insecurity that Clark has of being alone, it makes his attraction to any proposition that Zod may make to change the world even greater.

Once Zod then actually begins to show his true dictatorial colours Clark then begins to see how human he really is on the inside as he wouldn't want to be like Zod but would rather protect and serve humanity than be their leader.

Hence in one fell swoop he sheds his arrogance as he is now aware of what it leads to ultimately and also begins to feel at home since he'd rather fight alongside humanity than be their self-anointed God.

And that's what eventually makes him Superman.

 

[Herolee10]

The problem with that end of emotional conflict is that it verges on him becoming a soppy emo caricature which isn't exactly fun but could always be played on.

And to be honest I'd like to see Superman come across as a seriously pissed off Kryptonian when facing off against Zod and there needs to be a slight arrogance in his abilities.

Having him have a slight sense of superiority would serve a Zod plot well especially since if you then also play on the insecurity that Clark has of being alone, it makes his attraction to any proposition that Zod may make to change the world even greater.

Once Zod then actually begins to show his true dictatorial colours Clark then begins to see how human he really is on the inside as he wouldn't want to be like Zod but would rather protect and serve humanity than be their leader.

Hence in one fell swoop he sheds his arrogance as he is now aware of what it leads to ultimately and also begins to feel at home since he'd rather fight alongside humanity than be their self-anointed God.

And that's what eventually makes him Superman.

If they play the arrogance card too much on Clark/Superman then it could risk on alienating fans and the audience from the character. I mean there are a lot who said that the way that they handled Hal's character with the arrogance aspect didn't help him either.

And imho, there are ways of playing the problems that I mentioned above that wouldn't be angsty. I mean those are ACTUAL things that Superman has gone through in the comics and yet he didn't lose fans from it.

I'm sure we'll get a badass Superman from fighting Zod, but I don't want to see Superman as arrogant as Thor or GL was.

One of the things that makes Superman, Superman, is his honest nature. He may not be perfect but he does have a humble heart.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I don't understand why anyone would want to turn Superman into an arrogant character who is humbled only throughout the circumstances of the film, ESPECIALLY after Thor just did that.

It's not who the character is, whether your pre crisi or post crisis, a donner fan or not.

 

[Herolee10]

I don't understand why anyone would want to turn Superman into an arrogant character who is humbled only throughout the circumstances of the film, ESPECIALLY after Thor just did that.

It's not who the character is, whether your pre crisi or post crisis, a donner fan or not.

Because apparently some people just love seeing a antihero become a hero.lol

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Because apparently some people just love seeing a antihero become a hero.lol

It's more annoying than the 'villain can only be interesting if they start out good and turn bad' mentality.

Why can't the good guy just be a good guy, and the villain just be a nasty peice of work. What is so unrelatable and unenjoyable about that?

 

[BlueLantern]

Again, I'm not saying he should be an anti-hero and I'm certainly not asking for Thor levels of arrogance, but I think he should be in line with what JMS did in Earth One.

If you read that novel you can see the conflict in Clark where he knows he's better than everyone but he's not necessarily arrogant, just detached because of it.

Again the mild issue in that comic is the slightly angsty view the comic took on things, which is not something that should be seen.

Sometimes the villain is interesting if he starts out good because he's a tragic hero then, but he's equally as fun if he's just all out bad which is essentially what Zod is but even then he's only doing it for power.

Clark is the good guy, but I'd want to see a slightly flawed Clark who trusts his powers more than his humanity but that turn is what makes him a hero.

Even Bruce's depiction in Batman Begins needed something to motivate him into becoming Batman but initially it was a selfish desire for revenge, not just him being all-out good and saying 'I'm going to save the world!!!'

There's no motivation if someone just wakes up and says 'Oh I'll save the world today because I've got super-powers and my parents raised me well'

Seriously, no matter how many values parents instill in their child, it's still down to the individual to find their own way and that's just what life is all about. And sometimes it takes a turn to either direction of fate for someone to find their own way, and I'd like to see that.

 

[Herolee10]

Again, I'm not saying he should be an anti-hero and I'm certainly not asking for Thor levels of arrogance, but I think he should be in line with what JMS did in Earth One.

If you read that novel you can see the conflict in Clark where he knows he's better than everyone but he's not necessarily arrogant, just detached because of it.

Again the mild issue in that comic is the slightly angsty view the comic took on things, which is not something that should be seen.

Sometimes the villain is interesting if he starts out good because he's a tragic hero then, but he's equally as fun if he's just all out bad which is essentially what Zod is but even then he's only doing it for power.

Clark is the good guy, but I'd want to see a slightly flawed Clark who trusts his powers more than his humanity but that turn is what makes him a hero.

Even Bruce's depiction in Batman Begins needed something to motivate him into becoming Batman but initially it was a selfish desire for revenge, not just him being all-out good and saying 'I'm going to save the world!!!'

There's no motivation if someone just wakes up and says 'Oh I'll save the world today because I've got super-powers and my parents raised me well'

Seriously, no matter how many values parents instill in their child, it's still down to the individual to find their own way and that's just what life is all about. And sometimes it takes a turn to either direction of fate for someone to find their own way, and I'd like to see that.

The Ironic thing in all of this is that based on what I've seen in recent interpretations, it's always been the other way around from what you've just described, where Clark has tried to deny his alien heritage as a form of trying to convince himself of his own humanity.

One of the interesting things that could be played from that is Clark realizing throughout the course of the movie that his humanity is not defined by his powers or heritage, but by his character and actions.

And yeah, I don't expect Clark to wake up one day and decide to save the world. On the contrary; If Clark is trying to hide himself, too afraid of his powers, he could realize at some point that his powers would be better used helping those around him which gives him the courage to get over his own personal fear of hiding himself from the world.

And yeah, you're right, no matter how many values the Kents instill within Clark, it's still up to him to do what we know him for best.

Though one must wonder on what Nolan and Goyer consider to be more relevant for today; Clark favoring his alien side over his humanity at first, or the other way around?

 

[Roose Bolton]

Earth One did this well.^

 

[BlueLantern]

The Ironic thing in all of this is that based on what I've seen in recent interpretations, it's always been the other way around from what you've just described, where Clark has tried to deny his alien heritage as a form of trying to convince himself of his own humanity.

One of the interesting things that could be played from that is Clark realizing throughout the course of the movie that his humanity is not defined by his powers or heritage, but by his character and actions.

And yeah, I don't expect Clark to wake up one day and decide to save the world. On the contrary; If Clark is trying to hide himself, too afraid of his powers, he could realize at some point that his powers would be better used helping those around him which gives him the courage to get over his own personal fear of hiding himself from the world.

And yeah, you're right, no matter how many values the Kents instill within Clark, it's still up to him to do what we know him for best.

Though one must wonder on what Nolan and Goyer consider to be more relevant for today; Clark favoring his alien side over his humanity at first, or the other way around?

Personally I think the turn from embracing his alien heritage to embracing his humanity would be pretty cool and I'd like it more since one of my favourite storylines is the Day of The Krypton Man arc.

 

[GreenKToo]

I think it would be interesting if the Kents didnt even think Clark was an alien at first. Sure, they find the ship, but they could think it was some crazy goverment experiment gone wrong, so they take clark from the crash site to save him. Jonathan goes back with a tractor and removes the small ship and hides it on his farm, he buries it then builds a shed over it.

Clark is raised as a typical midwestern Boy. when he was 5, a tractor overturned while jonathan was on it. Clark caught it and saved him. Jonathan sits there stunned.
It wouldn't be until several years later, when clarks a teen, that his powers really start manifesting themselves. Up till now, its just been small things; A burst of speed here, and some superstrength there, but he always returns to normal, but now, the powers aren't leaving, in fact, he has more of them, and Clark is asking why he is different.

Jonathan and martha have been suspecting the crash may have been something more than a gov. experiment gone wrong. Now they are positive.

They decide to tell Clark how they found him. Clark runs out in horror at the tale. Martha races after him, but he is already gone. Clark races through the fields faster and faster. Everything becomes a blur around him, and suddenly he finds himself flying. He is afraid at first, but he gets the hang of it, and he loves it. He returns home after a couple of hours.

Looking for answers, Jonathan takes Clark to the shed where the ship is hid. Jonathan starts digging at the floor with a shovel, clark helps. They hit somehing. Clark pulls it out of the ground with ease. Its the ship.

It activates.

Light fills the shed. It's like a hologram except it actually looks like Clark is on krypton.
Mile(s) high towers, lush vegetation, waterfalls, and all kinds of weird animal life are on its surface.
It reveals the story of the doomed planet, clarks real parents, Zods attempts at over-throwing the planet, Jor-el's fight with the council, clarks parents placing him in the ship, his real name, Krypton exploding in the background, and finally it shows the ships approach to earth..

 

[BlueLantern]

I think if that happens first then there's no tension within the story because it's just a case of 'This is Zod, he is evil, fight him'.

That's just boring since it's a remake of Superman II without the loss of powers creating a second act.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

Scan from a recent Production Weekly:

 

[Godzilla2014]

Again, I'm not saying he should be an anti-hero and I'm certainly not asking for Thor levels of arrogance, but I think he should be in line with what JMS did in Earth One.

If you read that novel you can see the conflict in Clark where he knows he's better than everyone but he's not necessarily arrogant, just detached because of it.

Again the mild issue in that comic is the slightly angsty view the comic took on things, which is not something that should be seen.

Sometimes the villain is interesting if he starts out good because he's a tragic hero then, but he's equally as fun if he's just all out bad which is essentially what Zod is but even then he's only doing it for power.

Clark is the good guy, but I'd want to see a slightly flawed Clark who trusts his powers more than his humanity but that turn is what makes him a hero.

Even Bruce's depiction in Batman Begins needed something to motivate him into becoming Batman but initially it was a selfish desire for revenge, not just him being all-out good and saying 'I'm going to save the world!!!'

There's no motivation if someone just wakes up and says 'Oh I'll save the world today because I've got super-powers and my parents raised me well'

Seriously, no matter how many values parents instill in their child, it's still down to the individual to find their own way and that's just what life is all about. And sometimes it takes a turn to either direction of fate for someone to find their own way, and I'd like to see that.

So you're saying is that he acts similar to Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen, then progresses to being the Superman we know and love? I find that to be interesting, especially if done right.

 

[Zorex]

Scan from a recent Production Weekly:

Ach, all me crazy, but I feel like I've seen this before... the scene names for the Smallville stuff feels so familiar to me, like something that was news a while back but was debunked. Anyway, isn't it pretty common knowledge now that the Smallville stuff will be shot in Plano, IL, with Metropolis and other filming happening in Chicago and Vancouver?

Edit: I'm not crazy!

http://supermanhomepage.com/news/2011-news/2011-news-movie.php?topic=2011-news-movie/0107

 

[Rust]

I also think the principel photography has been moved up, no?

But yeah, that info there is somewhat old news. And hopefully not accurate. "Funeral"? I hope not.

 

[FilmNerdJamie]

Ach, all me crazy, but I feel like I've seen this before... the scene names for the Smallville stuff feels so familiar to me, like something that was news a while back but was debunked. Anyway, isn't it pretty common knowledge now that the Smallville stuff will be shot in Plano, IL, with Metropolis and other filming happening in Chicago and Vancouver?

Edit: I'm not crazy!

http://supermanhomepage.com/news/2011-news/2011-news-movie.php?topic=2011-news-movie/0107

Yeah I remember us seeing that same exact info too. Old news made new again. Because people's memories suck.

 

[jthom19802]

his pain??? his humanity???

i think it's wrong to make him as a normal human being because he is not!!! and surely he is not one of us!!! he will not have the same emotions, problems and issues like a layman!!!

he sees thing differently from us. he doesn't regard pain as pain. he doesn't regard human problems as problems. his issue isn't a layman's issue.
he has highly intelligence and understanding of life.

so, pls don't get mixed up between superman and spiderman.
don't make superman a spiderman pls.

I think you're missing the point a bit.

It drives me nuts when people talk about him being boring because "he's too perfect" or "he's too strong", etc etc.

Look, spend five minutes on this board and you'll know that everyone here wants to see Superman kick some MAJOR a**. It's quite an enjoyable thing. Nobody is disputing you there.

With that said however, some of the best Superman stories are ones like Peace on Earth and Birthright because they give you a glimpse that show that when he has five minutes alone, behind closed doors, he does have internal struggles with things like morality and purpose and frustration that he can't be in every place all of the time, or even if its his place to decide such things. In essence, even Superman - as powerful as he is - cannot save the world from everything (SEE: Pa Kents heart attack or say, cancer or a totalitarianism government).

This is a look into a dynamic of his character that most people don't even think of because he is "faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locamo...."; a dynamic, that I for one completely welcome.

 

[WeasleyIsRKing]

I think you're missing the point a bit.

It drives me nuts when people talk about him being boring because "he's too perfect" or "he's too strong", etc etc.

Look, spend five minutes on this board and you'll known that everyone here wants to see Superman kicks some MAJOR a**. It's quite an enjoyable thing. Nobody is disputing you there.

With that said however, some of the best Superman stories are ones like Peace on Earth and Birthright because they give you a glimpse that show that when he has five minutes alone, behind closed doors, he does have internal struggles with things like morality and purpose and frustration that he can't be in every place all of the time, or even if its his place to decide such things. In essence, even Superman - as powerful as he is - cannot save the world from everything (SEE: Pa Kents heart attack or say, cancer or a totalitarianism government).

This is a look into a dynamic of his character that most people don't even think of because he is "faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locamo...."; a dynamic, that I for one completely welcome.

That is the Superman that I want to see.

 

[sf2]

You want to know the difference between Spider-Man and the version of Superman you are describing? One is a compelling film character. The other isn't.

A story is about a journey. A character starts one place and ends in another. In Star Wars Luke Skywalker started as a simple farm boy, learned about responsibility and the Force, and ended up becoming the greatest Jedi the universe had ever seen. In Spider-Man Peter Parker started as a simple high school student and ended as a beloved superhero who has learned that with great power comes great responsibility. But the Superman you described? A demigod who feels no pain and is super intelligent? A man who can't understand humanity's problems? What possible story arc could there be for someone who starts off perfect?

oh, i think i didn't make myself clear enough. i didn't say that superman should be perfect. he isn't perfect as a matter of fact. he has faults.

i just said that he isn't one of us. he isn't a layman like us who concern about the daily issues and meeting ends.

he feels pain. but not the way of pain we feel.

i said he has a 'higher' understanding of life. he is 'sorta' like a freak or a genius, whose thinking is kinda 'unique' to us. we would go "what the heck!!!???" to some of his response to certain issues, but there is a deeper meaning in his response.

besides, the character development on the main character like u said on spidey and luke; i would like to see the character grown on the people around superman/clark kent, that they have been inspired by his 'thinking'.

 

[sf2]

It's official: GL has failed to be WB's Iron Man. IMO Wonder Woman would have been a better choice.

53M is still a lot! SR did about the same. SR didn't get a sequel though.

 

[sf2]

So what influence did Johnathan and Martha Kent have on him? Did they not give him some humanity by raising him as a human?

Do you think of Clark/Superman as a God-like figure?

no. he is not a semi-god / god-like.

i just say he should have a different set of thinking / "intepretation of things" than us while he still can have compassion, warmhearted, and most of all, a positive and cheerful attitude.

 

[GreenKToo]

53M is still a lot! SR did about the same. SR didn't get a sequel though.

It needed to do at least 75/80 mill its opening weekend to have a chance.