BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - Part 14

[Jekecy]

What do you guys think the consequences of Kal El having the Kryptonian codex embedded onto his cells will be? They made a really big deal of it in the first movie.

It would be a good way to explain Superman's fighting prowess and intelligence if you consider he has the genetic memory and programmed skill sets of an advanced culture inside him.

I don't think it's an accident they threw a potentially huge plot point out there. They're definitely planting seeds for future installments and this is one of those ideas that I think will be a focal point in a sequel.

Just off the top of my head; clones and/or an army of Supermen. I would surmise Lex or Cadmus be the likely candidates to carry the plot thread.

While I find this a very intriguing post, I'm not sure it applies to the magic of CBM characters. Because they exist now, in our time.

But they've developed independent of us. So what would our current limitations have to do with them?

And it's not so much that I resent the idea of magic as its own entity. It's that I think some magical elements clash with the MOS universe. And if they were to follow this logic that advanced technology appears as magic if a civilization doesn't understand it (which I think is true and fascinating), we would be assuming WW isn't based in magic, but technology. And that could open up a can of worms if they tried to explain her "technology" that people not in the know mistook for magic.

Futuristic sci-fi thrives on techno-jabber and for the most part has avoided the necessity in justifying their tech. It's an accepted fact on behalf of the audience that by virtue of existing in the future, it is too advanced (and unimportant) to explain.

 

[charl_huntress]

I can see them explaining the Greek Gods as beings from another plane of reality or dimension.

And The Sage comes in with the wisdom.

Yeah true. but they've evolved in the comics. Wonder Woman's for example only became a good origin in Azarello's run where it was revealed the origin she'd had for nearly 50 years (her being made out of clay ) was just a ruse to keep her safe from her true father Zeus.

No reason for the origins not to evolve on film even further.

 

[jmc]

Ok, but what exactly defines "out of place" in the MOS universe? That door was blown wide open with the film's opening sequence. The minute we've established an alien planet, and subsequently superpowered aliens, there's no more line in sand. At that point, literally anything can be introduced.

But let's take a step back for a second. Say there was a prequel involving the Kent family prior to their discovery of Kal. Same direction and tone of MOS, but no presence of aliens. Just some story involving a couple in Kansas. By your logic, what would have allowed the events of MOS to transpire and be deemed ok for that established universe? This is what I've meant in "things just happen". Major discoveries are almost always sudden. That's what makes them so important; it changes the assumed worldview in an instant.

It sounds like you're targeting a tonality shift more than anything. That I can completely understand practically demands consistency across films. But that most definitely works independent of imagined ideas/entities themselves.

What is the line then? There has to be some cut off point otherwise there is no consistency whatsoever, otherwise you may as well start throwing in dragons and ghosts and bigfoots and dinosaurs and god knows what else. At some point it becomes ridiculous and the universe you've created has become a complete mess devoid of structure.

 

[CharlieS]

Right...but they can't stay hookey and silly just because they already are.

They should alter an origin story when an origin story is silly. Every other characters that will be introduced in the MOS universe should be altered to fit the MOS universe, imo.

 

[Wise]

- we don't have a DC universe, this is a Man of Steel sequel, Batman and Wonder Woman are supporting characters in a Superman movie, but it's not the DC Universe - maybe it never will be anything beyond that.

If you don't think WB are building towards a shared DC Universe and a Justice League movie then I don't know what to tell you.

By your logic Avengers is just an Iron Man sequel with supporting characters.

 

[jmc]

I'm not even sure what that gif is meant to imply so it was kind of pointless.

 

[jmc]

If you don't think WB are building towards a shared DC Universe and a Justice League movie then I don't know what to tell you.

By your logic Avengers is just an Iron Man sequel with supporting characters.

A JL movie and a shared universe are two separate things my friend. I suggest you read what I wrote about Avengers on the previous page.

 

[CharlieS]

I can see them explaining the Greek Gods as beings from another plane of reality or dimension.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

They should alter an origin story when an origin story is silly. Every other characters that will be introduced in the MOS universe should be altered to fit the MOS universe, imo.

I wouldn't mind instead of talking to animals Aquaman just communicates telapathically (but he can't do that to humans)

 

[The Sage]

I wouldn't mind instead of talking to animals Aquaman just communicates telapathically (but he can't do that to humans)

I'm pretty sure that's in the New 52 as well. He says just as much in Aquaman # 1.

 

[Wise]

A JL movie and a shared universe are two separate things my friend. I suggest you read what I wrote about Avengers on the previous page.

They really aren't.

You're assuming that MoS2 will share the same rules that MoS1 did when there's no evidence to support that it will. In fact the mere introduction of Wonder Woman suggests that it won't.

Sequels don't always follow the rules set up by their predecessors.

 

[Jekecy]

What is the line then?

That's what I'm asking you. If you can clearly see what doesn't belong, then presumably you could point out the delineation. That is why I specifically brought up the concept of a MOS-prequel with no aliens. I was hoping you would answer that dilemma, applying the same principle doubts you've brought forth against other supernatural phenomena occurring post-MOS. In an alternate dimension, would you not have argued against the mere notion of a Superman, if all you were going off of was a Kent movie?

There has to be some cut off point otherwise there is no consistency whatsoever, otherwise you may as well start throwing in dragons and ghosts and bigfoots and dinosaurs and god knows what else. At some point it becomes ridiculous and the universe you've created has become a complete mess devoid of structure.

I would say it only becomes jumbled if it's not particularly handled with much care. In essence, as you pointed out, simply throwing all this garbage out there, at once, with no thought into how it belongs to the story.

And while I see your point in the potential for absurdity, it still remains you cannot discount something that does not exist. Doesn't mean all those things you mentioned do exist, or will inevitably appear. It's just a matter of impracticality and impossibility in disproving a non-existent entity.

 

[jmc]

They really aren't.

You're assuming that MoS2 will share the same rules that MoS1 did when there's no evidence to support that it will. In fact the mere introduction of Wonder Woman suggests that it won't.

Sequels don't always follow the rules set up by their predecessors.

You don't know how WW is going to be interpreted.

 

[The Shape]

I'm not even sure what that gif is meant to imply so it was kind of pointless.

It was meant to imply my utter confusion and defeat in reference to your claim that "we don't have the DC universe, it's only a Superman sequel, but it's not the DC universe and it might never be anything beyond that"....despite this next film including Batman (DC hero) and Wonder Woman (DC hero), as well as the known plan to produce more DC films building towards an eventual Justice League film.

Maybe this would have been a more appropriate response?

 

[roach]

You don't know how WW is going to be interpreted.

No one does…but based on the track record of Snyder and Goyer…are they more apt to change her back story or keep it…the evidence is leading me towards keeping it.

 

[The Shape]

Also, a shared universe doesn't have to follow the formula of 4 solo films and then a team-up. The additional DC characters being introduced in the next film have ALREADY created a shared DC universe...and the film isn't even out yet.

 

[roach]

http://www.empireonline.com/features/man-of-steel-secrets/p14

"I didn’t know about the Wayne Enterprises [symbol on the side of the satellite]. The LexCorp [logos were] in the script but the Wayne one... I was like, 'Oh that’s cool.' But Zack [Snyder] and I are big fanboys in that regard in a way that Chris [Nolan] isn’t. I mean we can cite certain covers or artists or things like that, [but] Chris just isn’t into that.

"This is just, sort of, y’know, ground zero for (no pun intended) a greater DC universe. This is a shared universe so we’re saying yes, Lex Luthor exists in this world, Bruce Wayne exists in this world. We mentioned S.T.A.R. Labs and so the intention is, if the film is well received, that this would be the starting point for introducing other characters and ultimately, obviously Warner Brothers hopes there will be a Justice League film and perhaps you might start seeing other characters appearing in each other’s films. I think in some ways they’re interested in going perhaps the opposite direction that Marvel has done which may be to do a group film and then spin off.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

Obviously fluffy pink dinosaurs showing up in MOS would be too big a departure for most people's tastes. Even if they were aliens and this was 'sci-fi'. Just like Rocket Racoon showing up in Iron Man probably would have been too big a departure. There had to be baby steps to get to that.

But I don't think that going from the world of MOS to a world with WW and the Gods is too big a stretch.

Iron Man went from a lighthearted pseudo-science world to a lighthearted fantasy world.

I think MOS can go from a serious sci-fi universe (where we have Avatar-like dragons and beasts, and entire populations' genetic information being downloaded into babies in ethereal white light) to a serious sci-fi/fantasy world.

(I also think the DCCU can become more lighthearted in future movies, despite the seriousness of the first movie in the universe.)

 

[jmc]

That's what I'm asking you. If you can clearly see what doesn't belong, then presumably you could point out the delineation. That is why I specifically brought up the concept of a MOS-prequel with no aliens. I was hoping you would answer that dilemma, applying the same principle doubts you've brought forth against other supernatural phenomena occurring post-MOS. In an alternate dimension, would you not have argued against the mere notion of a Superman, if all you were going off of was a Kent movie?

Your hypothetical prequel is kinda pointless, and even if it did happen elements would have had to have been planted to ensure that any follow up story featuring the arrival of their alien son wouldn't seem out of place. Your Kent movie would still retain some form of sci-fi undertones in order for a sequel to work - otherwise it's flat out ridiculous.

 

[jmc]

It was meant to imply my utter confusion and defeat in reference to your claim that "we don't have the DC universe, it's only a Superman sequel, but it's not the DC universe and it might never be anything beyond that"....despite this next film including Batman (DC hero) and Wonder Woman (DC hero), as well as the known plan to produce more DC films building towards an eventual Justice League film.

Maybe this would have been a more appropriate response?

And maybe you've got a different interpretation of what constitutes a DC Universe and 'plan' from WB. Just a thought.

 

[jmc]

No one does…but based on the track record of Snyder and Goyer…are they more apt to change her back story or keep it…the evidence is leading me towards keeping it.

What evidence?

 

[Jake Cassidy]

Hey, jmc, you sure do spend a lot of time talking about something you claim to not care about.

 

[jmc]

Hey, jmc, you sure do spend a lot of time talking about something you claim to not care about.

I like discussing film mate.

 

[Skrilla31]

Also, a shared universe doesn't have to follow the formula of 4 solo films and then a team-up. The additional DC characters being introduced in the next film have ALREADY created a shared DC universe...and the film isn't even out yet.

Yea, except Marvel's feels real and lived in and DC's is gonna feel like it was put together with scotch tape.

Avengers didn't need to waste time introducing or developing any of it's key characters. That's part of the reason why it was able to be so good. That first Justice League movie - and for all we know BvS - may not have that same luxury.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I guess Avengers 2 won't have that same luxury either with Scarlet Witch and Quiksilver.