BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - Part 14

[Jekecy]

That's assuming the audience is even aware of their individual mythos.

Hence lies the problem. Unless of course you're fine with Green Lantern just being some random dude with a cool ring who bails Superman out of a jam here and there.

Why is it a problem if it doesn't pertain to the story? Let's get to the real crux of the supposed issue here. You're arguing ensemble pieces fall apart without pre-established characters. Surely you recognize what you've just implied? Are you prepared to admonish every single team-focused movie not under the Marvel banner? There are some seriously respected cinematic works under that umbrella.

Also, Han Solo was some random space rogue who bails Luke out of a jam here and there. How memorable was he, I wonder?

 

[roach]

Why is it a problem if it doesn't pertain to the story? Let's get to the real crux of the supposed issue here. You're arguing ensemble pieces fall apart without pre-established characters. Surely you recognize what you've just implied? Are you prepared to admonish every single team-focused movie not under the Marvel banner? There are some pretty seriously respected cinematic works under that umbrella.

Also, Han Solo was some random space rogue who bails Luke out of a jam here and there. How memorable was he, I wonder?

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

Clearly nobody could get invested in Han Solo, because we didn't get his "origin, fall, conflict, and redemption" before A New Hope.

 

[Jekecy]

Clearly nobody could get invested in Han Solo, because we didn't get his "origin, fall, conflict, and redemption" before A New Hope.

Or that other black dude. No arc and usually just spouted threats before leaving for 20 minutes at a time. I can't place the name, he was so forgettable.

Darth, I think?

 

[roach]

Or that other black dude. No arc and usually just spouted threats before leaving for 20 minutes at a time. I can't place the name, he was so forgettable.

Darth, I think?

 

[NosfeRomas]

Fanboys are getting worse all the time !

 

[Skrilla31]

Why is it a problem if it doesn't pertain to the story? Let's get to the real crux of the supposed issue here. You're arguing ensemble pieces fall apart without pre-established characters. Surely you recognize what you've just implied? Are you prepared to admonish every single team-focused movie not under the Marvel banner? There are some seriously respected cinematic works under that umbrella.

Also, Han Solo was some random space rogue who bails Luke out of a jam here and there. How memorable was he, I wonder?

But that's what Justice League always was, wasn't it? An ensemble made up of pre-established characters? Isn't that what separates a team from a superteam? Isn't that what separated Avengers from the X-Men?

We had already lived in that universe for five movies before we got to Avengers. That's what I meant by "lived in". We knew this world. We knew these characters. It was an event to see them team up and to see everything come to fruition. If that movie came right after the first Iron Man, it just wouldn't have been the same. Thankfully though Marvel and Disney took the time to actually build towards that climax. Otherwise it would have been premature ejaculation...

... which is DC's problem right now.

 

[Tempest]

In other words, for those of you unfamiliar with these characters... here are the cliff notes. Not quite the same as spending 2 hours with a character, witnessing his origin, his fall, his conflict, and his redemption.

You know if you really wanna know what a book is about, all you have to do is glance over the cliff notes real quick. But we all know it's not quite the same as reading the book.

I've never seen the first episode of Bones, but from the first time I saw the show, I enjoyed it. Same with White Collar. I've never seen all of Tangled, but I love that film. I haven't read every single Superman comic, nor have I seen all his films, but I love his character. I don't know much about Green Lantern (any of them), but when they show up in other comics, I find them interesting.

I was in the King Arthur fandom (particularly with the film Clive Owen was in). Tristan was by far one of the most popular characters of the film, and he barely spoke. Tristan and Dagonet become one of the most popular slash pairings in the fandom, and they NEVER spoke to each other.

Draco Malfoy is not a particularly fleshed-out character in Harry Potter, and yet he's very popular in the fandom.

What people derive from a film isn't about length of time, or even the full story. The pleasure people gain from a film, and the care they have for the characters comes from how those characters are written and acted out for us.

So what if we don't get the full 3 hour film event to explain the origins of Flash and Green Lantern and Hawkman. If they're written well, we'll care about them. Hopefully we'll get solo films. But if not, that's what imaginations and fanfics are for.

 

[Skrilla31]

I don't know why you guys are referencing Star Wars which is clearly a movie with a singular protagonist.

 

[Tempest]

I don't know why you guys are referencing Star Wars which is clearly a movie with a singular protagonist.

Because the other characters had a deep impact on fans? Because your point is that a film with multiple characters can't possibly have characters that have an impact on the audience? Because SW is a good example of how characters with basically no origin stories can still be interesting?

Take your pick.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

Han and Leia were also protagonists...

 

[MrsKent26]

I don't know why you guys are referencing Star Wars which is clearly a movie with a singular protagonist.

I think the Star Wars reference is apt.

While I think you're right that there is a singular protagonist in SW, there are a couple other characters that have very important supporting roles. These roles are well executed and can even make these characters seem like protagonists at times. Which is a good thing because the main character can still shine, but so do the supporting ones.

And since we don't know many details about BvsS, Superman, Batman, and WW could be used in these kinds of ways, instead of going for a straight team-up film.

 

[Jekecy]

But that's what Justice League always was, wasn't it? An ensemble made up of pre-established characters? Isn't that what separates a team from a superteam? Isn't that what separated Avengers from the X-Men?

Justice League was formed after their respective characters had been set up, yes. But that doesn't mean the movies have to follow the same format. What's more important to note is JL (and other teams like it) succeeded irrespective of what went on in the individual series. A fan could strictly read JL stories and not really "lose" the experience because they weren't also keeping up on other titles. I'm just one example of it. I grew up as a batfan, but moved on to JL shortly thereafter. It wasn't until a few years ago that I decided to tackle each characters' individual mythos. And I don't regret it nor do I feel my previous reads were hollow.

This is what I mean when I say if it doesn't have anything to do with the narrative, it's all window dressing. Sure, it helps and certainly provides a more informed experience. But I argue those supplements are merely sweet snacks compared to the full meal you already get.

We had already lived in that universe for five movies before we got to Avengers. That's what I meant by "lived in". We knew this world. We knew these characters. It was an event to see them team up and to see everything come to fruition. If that movie came right after the first Iron Man, it just wouldn't have been the same. Thankfully though Marvel and Disney took the time to actually build towards that climax. Otherwise it would have been premature ejaculation...

... which is DC's problem right now.

Well since we are on the sex metaphor, isn't there something to be said about skipping the foreplay and delivering straight-on? At the end of the day isn't it about whether you're successful after it's all over? Regardless of whether or not certain activities may have enhanced things prior?

 

[Wise]

Han and Leia were also protagonists...

In ESB and ROTJ yes. ANH not so much.

 

[The Shape]

Fanboys are getting worse all the time !

 

[roach]

I think the Star Wars reference is apt.

While I think you're right that there is a singular protagonist in SW, there are a couple other characters that have very important supporting roles. These roles are well executed and can even make these characters seem like protagonists at times. Which is a good thing because the main character can still shine, but so do the supporting ones.

And since we don't know many details about BvsS, Superman, Batman, and WW could be used in these kinds of ways, instead of going for a straight team-up film.

I started using the Star Wars reference when people complained about this movie having too many characters.

 

[roach]

In ESB and ROTJ yes. ANH not so much.

but couldn't the same be said for this movie

Luke-Superman
Han-Batman
Leia-WW

 

[MrsKent26]

I started using the Star Wars reference when people complained about this movie having too many characters.

I know. And it was fitting then and now. It actually makes me feel better about this movie. You were on to something.

 

[Wise]

but couldn't the same be said for this movie

Luke-Superman
Han-Batman
Leia-WW

Yes I'd agree with that and would be happy if that were the case.

Apart from Superman and Wonder Woman being siblings... ew.

 

[roach]

I know. And it was fitting then and now. It actually makes me feel better about this movie. You were on to something.

because I am not only looking at the news as a fan but as a screenwriter.

 

[roach]

Yes I'd agree with that and would be happy if that were the case.

Apart from Superman and Wonder Woman being siblings... ew.

Well I was using it as an example:

Superman, like Luke, is the main protagonist of this movie.
Batman, like Han, is the secondary protagonist.
WW, like Leia, is a secondary protagonist.

 

[Skrilla31]

Because the other characters had a deep impact on fans? Because your point is that a film with multiple characters can't possibly have characters that have an impact on the audience? Because SW is a good example of how characters with basically no origin stories can still be interesting?

Take your pick.

It's not the same thing as Star Wars.

The main protagonist of Star Wars is Luke. Han and the rest of the gang are all supporting characters. And yea sure we spend plenty of time with them and get to know who they are underneath but their main story function is to help Luke get to where he's going.

But for a moment imagine there had already been a Luke Skywalker movie the year or so before and he was already a pop culture icon. Now it's not even an ensemble anymore. Now it's Luke and friends.

There was no main protagonist in Avengers. The Avengers were the main protagonists. And if we're lucky, the same will be said for the JL movie.

 

[Skrilla31]

Well since we are on the sex metaphor, isn't there something to be said about skipping the foreplay and delivering straight-on? At the end of the day isn't it about whether you're successful after it's all over? Regardless of whether or not certain activities may have enhanced things prior?

Uh, no? It's not a sprint.

Unless you're in a rush, then it's a sprint.

 

[MrsKent26]

because I am not only looking at the news as a fan but as a screenwriter.

Yeah, you were. I was looking at it as a Superman fangirl most of the time and ignoring the fact that it's an actual movie, not just it's own breed of "team-up film" that is subject to rigid rules. I think I might be coming around to this movie a bit.

 

[Jake Cassidy]

but couldn't the same be said for this movie

Luke-Superman
Han-Batman
Leia-WW

Well I was using it as an example:

Superman, like Luke, is the main protagonist of this movie.
Batman, like Han, is the secondary protagonist.
WW, like Leia, is a secondary protagonist.

What about Lois? She'd probably be the Leia in this analogy.