BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 2

[The Question]

No it's not.

Not in a traditional sense, but it's mythology and it's origin is Greek.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Not in a traditional sense, but it's mythology and it's origin is Greek.

It's not mythology, Timaeus (and its would be trilogy) is a Platonic dialogue and book on natural philosophy. An allegory to the real world, and a spiritual "sequel" to The Republic, it concerns the nature of nations and how ideal nation states can fall.

Contemporarily, it was never considered as if any of it were true, or a part of the Hellenic religion. Only in more recent times have people ever taken the idea of the lost nation of Atlantis seriously.

In the same way Paradise Lost is written with characters from the Christian Bible, and people generally assume what is contained is "canon" nothing in it is from the Bible, but is rather an attempt by author John Milton to explain the nature of God to man.

 

[The Question]

It's not mythology, Timaeus (and its would be trilogy) is a Platonic dialogue and book on natural philosophy. An allegory to the real world, and a spiritual "sequel" to The Republic, it concerns the nature of nations and how ideal nation states can fall.

Contemporarily, it was never considered as if any of it were true, or a part of the Hellenic religion. Only in more recent times have people ever taken the idea of the lost nation of Atlantis seriously.

In the same way Paradise Lost is written with characters from the Christian Bible, and people generally assume what is contained is "canon" nothing in it is from the Bible, but is rather an attempt by author John Milton to explain the nature of God to man.

Atlantis is mythology. It wasn't originally but it is now. And it's origins are Greek. Which is what I said.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

A myth that comes from Greece and Greek mythology are two different things. One is a religion and one was simply a book.

For example, there is the Church of Scotland, and the myth of the Loch Ness Monster. It does not mean the Monster is a part of Scottish protestantism. They're two different things, one is the Church of Scotland's interpretation of Christian mythology, the other is just a Scottish myth.

 

[The Question]

A myth that comes from Greece and Greek mythology are two different things. One is a religion and one was simply a book.

For example, there is the Church of Scotland, and the myth of the Loch Ness Monster. It does not mean the Monster is a part of Scottish protestantism. They're two different things, one is the Church of Scotland's interpretation of Christian mythology, the other is just a Scottish myth.

Which is why I said "Not in a traditional sense."

 

[Rorschach2012]

Poseidon and Atlantis have been connected for a long time, Atlantis may not be greek mythology, but it has ties to it, enough for it to be connected to Themyscira

 

[BH/HHH]

NICE!
Same here! Its not my favorite superhero movie (I love The Dark Knight/The Dark Knight Rises too much), but to me MoS is up there with the best! Definately better than any Marvel film this far (even if i like them almost all) and I even think MoS is THE best superhero origin movie of all time. Yes, better than Batman Begins and Iron Man. Still don't get how it got that much flak. I saw it 8 times in theatres and everyone around me loved it as well.

Anyway... I hope that the team up will be even better and make a quality jump like the Batman franchise after Begins.

I completely agree with you! My favorite movie of the summer, hands down! I don't care what the naysayers say. I loved everything about the movie.

Glad I'm not the only one around here

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Glad I'm not the only one around here

I really want to see what the consensus is in a year after have time to digest everything in high quality digital in the comfort of their own homes and the initial emotional reaction to certain things in the film have died down,

Also by then another film will have come out to be a focus of fanboy/girl fury and the heat will be off in the fan community for MOS. I predict Robocop will be the next film to enrage the peanut gallery.

 

[DA_Champion]

The fanboy rage stuff is fiction. There are a lot of films fanboys have enjoyed:

Star trek 2009
Batmam trilogy
X men first class
Avengers
Hunger games
Harry potter octology
Lord of the rings trilogy

All appreciated by their rabid fanbases. A good movie will not draw fanboy rage. Note these movies typically score 86% and not 56% on rotten tomatoes.

 

[SpideyFan866]

Glad I'm not the only one around here

Ditto.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

makes sense

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

The fanboy rage stuff is fiction. There are a lot of films fanboys have enjoyed:

Star trek 2009
Batmam trilogy
X men first class
Avengers
Hunger games
Harry potter
Lord of the rings trilogy

All appreciated by their rabid fanbases. A good movie will not draw fanboy rage.

Yeah, I really don't follow what you mean? Other than perhaps LOTR/POTTER/HG those other films you listed had/have many a loud detractor. (Trust me, I had to hear about Trek '09 from my mom for about 3 years, then she up and said, "Y'know what... It's really grown on me. I just could not believe they destroyed Vulcan and changed the timeline SO much, but after seeing it on cable I have to admit it's a good film" a couple of months ago. My mom is an original Trek fan from the 60's, so she had enormous emotional attachement to Trek, as strong as any Superman's fan is to him. She changed her mind. I could see others, perhaps many others doing the same. Or I could be wrong. Damn, this little aside is longer than the actual message of my post. Oh well. )

 

[KillerMcQueen]

The fanboy rage stuff is fiction. There are a lot of films fanboys have enjoyed:

Star trek 2009
Batmam trilogy
X men first class
Avengers
Hunger games
Harry potter octology
Lord of the rings trilogy

All appreciated by their rabid fanbases. A good movie will not draw fanboy rage. Note these movies typically score 86% and not 56% on rotten tomatoes.

Um, what fantasy world do you live in? The only fiction about fanboy rage is your post saying it doesn't exist. all of those films have their fair share of fans that hate them. Not all Trekkies praised the new film(s), a lot of them have been rather volatile. There are countless people unwilling to accept any deviation from the LOTR book and condemn all of the movies, First Class has its fair share of detractors, and you don't need to look very far to find people who take issue with Nolan's Batman trilogy, can't speak for Hunger Games but there are some HP fans that have quite a number of issues with the films. You're trying to re-write fact to better suit your argument, don't do that, It's an insult to the intelligence of all that read it.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Um, what fantasy world do you live in? The only fiction about fanboy rage is your post saying it doesn't exist. all of those films have their fair share of fans that hate them. Not all Trekkies praised the new film(s), a lot of them have been rather volatile. There are countless people unwilling to accept any deviation from the LOTR book and condemn all of the movies, First Class has its fair share of detractors, and you don't need to look very far to find people who take issue with Nolan's Batman trilogy, can't speak for Hunger Games but there are some HP fans that have quite a number of issues with the films. You're trying to re-write fact to better suit your argument, don't do that, It's an insult to the intelligence of all that read it.

Note to self: Keep on KillerMcQueen's good side.

 

[DA_Champion]

Um, what fantasy world do you live in? The only fiction about fanboy rage is your post saying it doesn't exist. all of those films have their fair share of fans that hate them. Not all Trekkies praised the new film(s), a lot of them have been rather volatile. There are countless people unwilling to accept any deviation from the LOTR book and condemn all of the movies, First Class has its fair share of detractors, and you don't need to look very far to find people who take issue with Nolan's Batman trilogy, can't speak for Hunger Games but there are some HP fans that have quite a number of issues with the films. You're trying to re-write fact to better suit your argument, don't do that, It's an insult to the intelligence of all that read it.

They have detractors, your claim that anybody is denying that is an insult to all who read it.

However, all are generally appreciated by their fanbases. Star trek for example was recently voted the 5th best st movie at a fan convention. Most lord of the rings fans I know own the film trilogy, and peter jackson is now a nerd icon, et cetera.

In contrast, mos does not draw that much love at all. It has a similar reaction from the superman fanbase as the prequels drew ftom the star wars fanbase.

Stop pretending all the reactions are similar, they're not. It is the lesser films like man of steel, attack of the clones, etc that draw more nerd rage, definitely more than the dark knight or the fellowship of the ring.

 

[smallville fan]

I still think Man of Steel is everything I wanted in a comic book film, it moved along at a great pace, got Clark in costume fairly quick which I liked bad had the greatest action scenes I have ever seen in a film.

NICE!
Same here! Its not my favorite superhero movie (I love The Dark Knight/The Dark Knight Rises too much), but to me MoS is up there with the best! Definately better than any Marvel film this far (even if i like them almost all) and I even think MoS is THE best superhero origin movie of all time. Yes, better than Batman Begins and Iron Man. Still don't get how it got that much flak. I saw it 8 times in theatres and everyone around me loved it as well.

Anyway... I hope that the team up will be even better and make a quality jump like the Batman franchise after Begins.

I completely agree with you! My favorite movie of the summer, hands down! I don't care what the naysayers say. I loved everything about the movie.

Definitely in the same camp with you guys!! Although I do not put this movie in the same category as Avengers or TDK/Batman Begins, it's up there!(Until 2015 at least) I like the fact that we finally get to see Superman's true power at long last as well as a Superman that reminds me of George Newburn's Superman from JL. t:

We practically got a half decent translation of this, when I'd say Superman was at his finest:

[YT]gChe4WRv5qU[/YT]

[YT]6BJ1-trrgqc[/YT]

I'm fortunate for that. I think all the naysayers should just take a chill pill, and wait for the sequel for all the character development and story. I look at this as the "zero issue" in the words of David Goyer and see that so many seeds have been sown for many strong movies ahead. I think all the stuff like the destruction would serve as an important plot device for quite possibly the best portrayal of Lex Luthor. Realistically speaking though, if aliens from an advanced civilization did indeed show up as Steven Hawking said:

"If aliens visit us, the outcome would be much as when Columbus landed in America, which didn't turn out well for the Native Americans,"

Funny how we got that indeed. Heck both Zod and Columbus wanted the same thing! Real Estate!

I guess also that sort of power and devastation should be expected to a degree with the Zod/Superman fight. I say people should really try to close their eyes and try to imagine the immensity of the kind of energy Superman packs along with other Kryptonians just like that as described by vsauce here:

[YT]V-fL8zopddI[/YT]

Now imagine what a fraction of that energy, when channeled as kinetic energy would do. Now tell me the movie wasn't true to the lore and the general science of Superman.

 

[The Question]

The fanboy rage stuff is fiction. There are a lot of films fanboys have enjoyed:

Star trek 2009
Batmam trilogy
X men first class
Avengers
Hunger games
Harry potter octology
Lord of the rings trilogy

All appreciated by their rabid fanbases. A good movie will not draw fanboy rage. Note these movies typically score 86% and not 56% on rotten tomatoes.

I thought X-Men: First Class was a pretty terrible movie.

 

[DA_Champion]

I thought X-Men: First Class was a pretty terrible movie.

I was amazed by it, and then I looked online and found a generally positive reactions.

Anyway, my general point is simply that better movies draw proportionately a lot less nerd rage than lesser movies. We should not dismiss the mass disappointment as "fan boy whining," that was not the case for the star wars prequels, and it is not the case here. If you make a good movie, a lot more fans will come on board. The avengers proves this.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ If you make a good movie, embrace the genre to the better end of the max, stay faithful to the spirit of the characters, AND have solid action scenes, you might have fanboy acclaim

 

[SpideyFan866]

X-Men First Class was a good movie, great even.

But not as great as some people say.

Some people rank it up there with the likes of X2, Avengers, and TDK.... and I just dont see it.

 

[DA_Champion]

X-Men First Class was a good movie, great even.

But not as great as some people say.

Some people rank it up there with the likes of X2, Avengers, and TDK.... and I just dont see it.

One good thing about it, it is different. It is a period piece, it is a prequel, the plot is not wolverine-centric, and the climax is psychological, intense and succeeds without explosions.

I personally prefer it to the avengers.

 

[The Question]

I think the plot is a mess and full of really cheesy contrivances, the dialogue is pretty terrible, the character development is poorly paced and not very well thought our, the movie is full of characters who absolutely don't matter, Beast's subplot is really shoe horned in there and paced very terribly, and worst of all the heroes of the story (Xavier and Magneto) have very little agency of their own, everything that they're supposed to have accomplished themselves (building Cerebro, forming the X-Men in the first place) was done for them by the CIA. The performances by the two leads and by Kevin Bacon are great, but the movie is not very good.

 

[Loki882]

It has no more cheesy contrivance than your average Bond film.
They needed a team, and they were at least interesting.
Beast subplot was not shoe-horned in, it made perfect sense.
The pacing was fine.
Erik had no agency of his own, did you watch the first third, it was the "Erik traveling the world killing Nazi's" show. Also, the Cerebro that the CIA has is NOT the same one from X1, so technically that statement from X1 could still be true. The X-Men are broken up in DOFP, so THAT statement could still be true.

 

[The Question]

It has no more cheesy contrivance than your average Bond film.

And your average Bond film isn't very good.

They needed a team, and they were at least interesting.

How were they interesting? They were barely characters. They just occupied space.

Beast subplot was not shoe-horned in, it made perfect sense.

Something being shoe horned in doesn't mean it doesn't make sense, it means it's out of place. The logic of Beast's sub plot was sound, but it was disconnected from the rest of the movie and ultimately nothing came of it.

The pacing was fine.

Nope.

Erik had no agency of his own, did you watch the first third, it was the "Erik traveling the world killing Nazi's" show.

Which was the best part of the movie. But the fact remains that tracking down mutants, creating a team, and building Cerebro weren't the ideas of our two main characters, they were just along for the ride for the bulk of the movie.

Also, the Cerebro that the CIA has is NOT the same one from X1, so technically that statement from X1 could still be true. The X-Men are broken up in DOFP, so THAT statement could still be true.

Yes, they could be true, but by means of a technicality that doesn't really have any substance to it.

 

[Krumm]

Something being shoe horned in doesn't mean it doesn't make sense, it means it's out of place. The logic of Beast's sub plot was sound, but it was disconnected from the rest of the movie and ultimately nothing came of it.

His transformation helps him become more comfortable with himself which in turn helps Mystique do the same.