BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - Part 57

[InJustice]

Yeah but I don't think WB knows how to do that with Superman and similar character, they don't think it will work. They think tones like TDK and MOS is what works. Unfortunately. Marvel has been true to most of their characters better than I could of expected them to be. (I will say that Marvel is true to their characters to the point where they even kill as many of them do, which Superman shouldn't do as he isn't like many of the Marvel heroes).

"Shouldn't" is too black and white and disregards certain scenarios in which killing is his last resort. Also, "shouldn't" is a matter of how you view the character, I mean...comics has set a precedent where Superman kills so it's not like it's a completely foreign concept.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Are you saying Superman was immoral in MOS? Oh, and Superman wasn't always a "boyscout" in the comics. He was a social crusader.

Marvel has not been completely true to their characters.

Exactly. They've been about as true to the characters as Supes was in MOS, to my eyes. Which to me means that they have kept many aspects, jettisoned some and updated things where need be for the audiences of today.... Which is par for the course with Comic Book Superheroes in the source materials as well as in TV shows and toons.

 

[InJustice]

Marvel has been true to their characters...?

If that was the case, then why did we get the Mandarin ****storm?

 

[Herolee10]

ANY hero would do those things. Batman, Wolverine (Jackman), Iron Man, Spidey, etc. Insert any of those names instead of Clark, and it would fit just fine. Superman is supposed to be on a whole different level.

When Peter saw two thugs in a alley mugging a person in "spider-man 2", he left that person to that predicament as he didn't want to be a "hero" anymore.

Tony doesn't really do anything unless it involves him in a personal way from what I've seen.

Wolverine would have beaten the crap out of anyone bothering him instead of opting to ignore it.

 

[hafizbat]

Marvel has been true to their characters...?

If that was the case, then why did we get the Mandarin ****storm?

To be fair, that is a lesser known villain who wouldn't translate perfectly on screen (too many racist overtones).

Marvel has been very close to the comics for the main characters.

 

[Herolee10]

"Shouldn't" is too black and white and disregards certain scenarios in which killing is his last resort. Also, "shouldn't" is a matter of how you view the character, I mean...comics has set a precedent where Superman kills so it's not like it's a completely foreign concept.

And people conveniently forget that he killed Zod in "SII" (even though there's a deleted scene that shows that he didn't, the fact that it was cut out of the film means that it's no longer void)....and he even choked his evil twin to death in SIII. Of course the only reasons why people don't mind this is because they say that the films were campy so it gets a free pass.

 

[hafizbat]

When Peter saw two thugs in a alley mugging a person in "spider-man 2", he left that person to that predicament as he didn't want to be a "hero" anymore.

Tony doesn't really do anything unless it involves him in a personal way from what I've seen.

Wolverine would have beaten the crap out of anyone bothering him instead of opting to ignore it.

The first was an exception, not the rule. And the second two are just wildly inaccurate.

 

[Winter Soldier]

Learn the difference between favorable and rating. A movie can have a 100% favorable score and a 7/10 average score. That's how RT works. I remember people saying Avengers deserved awards right after it came out because people were on a high.

It did. It just wasn't an Oscar bait film. This might qualify.

That being said, we now have 4 incredible CBM films of the past decade that will be timeless classics. 4 universally loved CBM films.

The Dark Knight, Avengers, The Winter Soldier and X-Men: Days Of Future Past. It's hard to even place a clear winner between these four. They're all excellent films that transcend and redefine the CBM genre.

We've come a long way, and I'm excited and what we're going to get in 2015 and 16.

 

[Mad Love]

To be fair, that is a lesser known villain who wouldn't translate perfectly on screen (too many racist overtones).

Marvel has been very close to the comics for the main characters.

You can say the same about MOS. It all depends on which comics.

So let's not say brag about Marvel that way.

 

[DA_Champion]

I'm only mentioning this because it's relevant to this discussion.

Campea at AMC says X-Men Days Of Future Past is the first comicbook film that deserves to be nominated for an Oscar for best picture..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BB--bg2-Ag0#t=2978

And he will be appalled if it isn't nominated. I hope it indeed does get Oscar buzz. That would be high praise for Singer and his directorial talent, but well deserved. It would be great for the CBM genre.

1) Snyder > Singer
2) If DoFP is nominated for best picture, it will only be because Hollywood is rallying around Bryan Singer the same way they rallied around Roman Polanski and Woody Alen. Then again we live in a world where Silver Linings Playbook gets consideration for best screenplay.
3) DoFP is severely overrated at this time and it will definitely lose traction later, here is my review, which is far less positive than most:
http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=28870489&postcount=459
It's a good movie, not a great one.

 

[InJustice]

To be fair, that is a lesser known villain who wouldn't translate perfectly on screen (too many racist overtones).

Marvel has been very close to the comics for the main characters.

It's not a lesser known villain, especially considering that it's the one of the biggest villains in Iron Man lore. That would be equivalent to making one of the Joker/Lex Luthor/Green Goblin/etc. a fraud. Racist overtones is a lazy excuse to fall on considering that you can write the character differently to avoid stereotypes while staying true to the traditions of the character. For instance, if Nolan hadn't whitewashed Ra's Al Ghul (which IMO is racist), I wouldn't call his Ra's Al Ghul "racist" or the sort.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I think Marvel already corrected the Mandarin situation with the All Hail The King short, where supposedly it is revealed that the real Mandarin is out there.

 

[Doc Ock]

I loved this moment.

It was a great moment.

Are you saying Superman was immoral in MOS? Oh, and Superman wasn't always a "boyscout" in the comics. He was a social crusader.

Marvel has not been completely true to their characters.

Immoral? I don't know, but I didn't like the idea of a neck-snapping Superman. Kinda felt like Mark Waid in that moment. I should of said mostly true instead of true to most.

"Shouldn't" is too black and white and disregards certain scenarios in which killing is his last resort. Also, "shouldn't" is a matter of how you view the character, I mean...comics has set a precedent where Superman kills so it's not like it's a completely foreign concept.

Your right there have been a few times your Superman has killed, the same with Batman. What happened...happened. It is what it is.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I liked TWS fine, but "timeless classic" is over stating things. I haven't seen it, but I'm guessing calling DOFP a classic is most likely over the top as well. I've honestly yet to see an X-Men film I would call "classic" yet, even if Jackman, Sir Pat and Sir Ian give iconic and "classic"performances of their respective characters in those first two films.

 

[InJustice]

I think Marvel already corrected the Mandarin situation with the All Hail The King short, where supposedly it is revealed that the real Mandarin is out there.

Which was a stupid thing to do. If they wanted to radically change a character, they're free to do so, but they should've stuck to their guns in spite of the ****storm. Releasing that short which retcons the Mandarin tells me they have no faith in staying consistent with Shane Black's Mandarin (should he be in another Marvel movie), which is a bad message to send to audiences IMO.

 

[Mad Love]

I think Marvel already corrected the Mandarin situation with the All Hail The King short, where supposedly it is revealed that the real Mandarin is out there.

Retcon

 

[Herolee10]

The first was an exception, not the rule. And the second two are just wildly inaccurate.

1. Tony first became Iron Man because he realized the "error" of his ways, along with how he didn't want anything made from his company being used to hurt people. He only got seriously involved with the "Mandarin" situation when Hogan was caught in the crossfire. Though, I will admit..he at least did have noble intentions for the most part in "The Avengers".

2. Everything that we've seen of Wolverine in the past films...if some punk bothered him and provoked him, he would respond back with violence unless someone else stepped in and prevented him from doing so. Do you really think that Wolverine would have allowed a guy to throw beer in his face or some high school teenager push him around without fighting back?

 

[Jordacar]

I was just thinking, how many Marvel movies (including Spidey & X-Men) are coming out between MoS and BvS?

Off the top of my head, there's Thor 2, Cap 2, ASM2, X-Men: DOFP, Guardians, Avengers 2...and a few others that are still filming. Others?

 

[Mad Love]

Immoral? I don't know, but I didn't like the idea of a neck-snapping Superman. Kinda felt like Mark Waid in that moment. I should of said mostly true instead of true to most.

You know Captain America kills? He's not more moral than Superman in MOS.

 

[Herolee10]

Immoral? I don't know, but I didn't like the idea of a neck-snapping Superman. Kinda felt like Mark Waid in that moment. I should of said mostly true instead of true to most.

Your right there have been a few times your Superman has killed, the same with Batman. What happened...happened. It is what it is.

If anything, I think the reason why people were so affected by this, more so than Superman throwing zod to his death in SII, was due to the nature of how Superman took a life in MOS. I mean neck snapping is pretty physical and visceral as opposed to throwing someone into the abyss.

Plus, it was the way it was played out with Superman yelling out in anger and despair after having killed Zod.

What I find funny is that even though CA is considered Marvel's boy Scout...he's done things that were pretty hardcore in the MCU.

He threw a knife at a Hydra Agents back....allowed another soldier to be sliced into pieces by a Hydra Plane...and threw a person off the hellcarrier.

 

[Winter Soldier]

Which was a stupid thing to do. If they wanted to radically change a character, they're free to do so, but they should've stuck to their guns in spite of the ****storm. Releasing that short which retcons the Mandarin tells me they have no faith in staying consistent with Shane Black's Mandarin (should he be in another Marvel movie), which is a bad message to send to audiences IMO.

The short wasn't for general audiences. It was for the comic fanboys who complained.

Therefore, it was a smart move on Marvel's part. They're giving those fans what they wanted. Giving that niche audience what they want.

General audiences who enjoyed IM3 will still have IM3.

 

[hafizbat]

It's not a lesser known villain, especially considering that it's the one of the biggest villains in Iron Man lore. That would be equivalent to making one of the Joker/Lex Luthor/Green Goblin/etc. a fraud. Racist overtones is a lazy excuse to fall on considering that you can write the character differently to avoid stereotypes while staying true to the traditions of the character. For instance, if Nolan hadn't whitewashed Ra's Al Ghul (which IMO is racist), I wouldn't call his Ra's Al Ghul "racist" or the sort.

Yes, he was a lesser known villain. Iron Man himself was not very popular before IM1 in 2008. I'm speaking about the GA here.

 

[DA_Champion]

You know Captain America kills? He's not more moral than Superman in MOS.

People might not notice that Steve Rogers is a cold-blooded killer. It happens quickly and efficiently. In contrast, when Superman kills, he screams in agony for 3 or 4 seconds, letting it all sink in with the audience.

 

[Doc Ock]

You know Captain America kills?

Yes, so does Iron Man and the rest of the Avengers and many of the Marvel heroes. I'm sorry I thought I already mentioned that, I'm terrible at this lol.

 

[Herolee10]

I was just thinking, how many Marvel movies (including Spidey & X-Men) are coming out between MoS and BvS?

Off the top of my head, there's Thor 2, Cap 2, ASM2, X-Men: DOFP, Guardians, Avengers 2...and a few others that are still filming. Others?

Ant-Man (presumably) as well