Arrow Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 10

[DrRocket]

Love Manu Bennett and Amell, seem real down to earth people

 

[Nathan]

Just saw this comment.

"I wasn't trying to be a b**ch."

Sara's autobiography.

"I was trying to be a b**ch."

Laurel's autobiography.

 

[halo4able]

http://theapplefour.tumblr.com/post/75900779152/laurel-and-sara-lance-school-girls-in-these

People should read this, it may give you a different perspective on Sara and laurel

 

[Nathan]

That didn't really change anything for me. Because the Laurel in those pages, isn't the Laurel that I'm seeing on Arrow. She might have started out like that in Season 1, but with each new detail that gets revealed in Season 2, they paint a picture of a Laurel that isn't as innocent as she appears on first glance. Instead what we get is a Laurel that seems slightly manipulative, delusional, overly clingy to the point that it's getting uncomfortable and it comes to no surprise why Ollie ran, and she is extremely confrontational when someone even dares to question her perfect world.

And while the comic might paint Sara as an irresponsible party girl, who has a history of going after other girl's boyfriends, the show established that Sara was the first that had a crush on Ollie, who got snatched up by Laurel when Sara was grounded, and when Sara got asked out by Oliver, she even had second thoughts. Oliver pretty much begged her to come with him, and when Laurel blew up in her face, that pretty much sealed Sara's decision.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Re-watching Season 1 is pissing me off even more in relation to Laurel. Her character is so much better, Katie looks a lot better, it feels like she has a role to play other than that of a C***. It feels like the showrunners went out of their way to make us despise her this season.

 

[Infinity9999x]

That didn't really change anything for me. Because the Laurel in those pages, isn't the Laurel that I'm seeing on Arrow. She might have started out like that in Season 1, but with each new detail that gets revealed in Season 2, they paint a picture of a Laurel that isn't as innocent as she appears on first glance. Instead what we get is a Laurel that seems slightly manipulative, delusional, overly clingy to the point that it's getting uncomfortable and it comes to no surprise why Ollie ran, and she is extremely confrontational when someone even dares to question her perfect world.

And while the comic might paint Sara as an irresponsible party girl, who has a history of going after other girl's boyfriends, the show established that Sara was the first that had a crush on Ollie, who got snatched up by Laurel when Sara was grounded, and when Sara got asked out by Oliver, she even had second thoughts. Oliver pretty much begged her to come with him, and when Laurel blew up in her face, that pretty much sealed Sara's decision.

It's stuff like this that I don't get. I have no idea why the writers are including it. Why would they add a detail like that? That doesn't add to the breaking down of Laurel's character, it only makes the audience dislike her even more. Honestly, what purpose did adding that little detail serve aside from adding another unlikeable trait to the character? I honestly don't understand it.

You can break a character down without making them unlikeable. Heck, in GOT, they broke Jamie Lannister down, and as they did, he grew steadily MORE likeable.

 

[RetroNaz]

I'm hoping they're actually turning Laurel into a villain, rather than having a destiny that ties her to become BC.

 

[Scarecrow_King]

I'd like to see her become White Canary. Sarah just works as BC so well, I don't want to see her go.

I also love the relationship they threw in between Nyssa ans Sarah. A good way to throw in some sexual diversity in the show, and it actually made sense in context. It wasn't a random pairing in order to have that diversity.

 

[Capt. Marvelous]

I think some would argue that there's another actress who Amell has fantastic chemistry with...

But then again, an argument could be made that Thea simply has fantastic chemistry with ALL her brothers. t:

I was referring to romantic chemistry. Otherwise I would have mentioned Moira and Thea as well.

 

[Capt. Marvelous]

I'd like to see her become White Canary. Sarah just works as BC so well, I don't want to see her go.

White Canary is a completely different character. She's a deadly Asian assassin and martial artist far more skilled than Dinah Lance. http://www.comicvine.com/white-canary/4005-71585/

 

[Nathan]

The show has already changed a number of things. White Canary's most defining trait seems to be that she is better than Lady Shiva. Otherwise she doesn't seem all that interesting. I honestly wouldn't mind if they turn Laurel into the White Canary, as former siblings turned bitter enemies, seems to be a more interesting concept.

If I had my way, I'd mix Cupid with White Canary. Give Laurel the Mirakuru, to give her increased strength, to actually have a chance against Sara, and send her mentally completely over the edge. And she would call herself the White Canary, to basically just mock her sister.

 

[Boy Scout]

She IS overly attached.

She was young and in love. I don't think she showcased any abnormal or obsessive behavior. What I think some people are forgetting is that Oliver led her to believe that they were on the same page and wanted the same things. Of course she was excited.

I don't blame Ollie for sleeping with Sara. Is it a cowardly thing to do and not tell Laurel ? of course. But I don't blame the guy. Don't spook a 20 year old playboy with stories of marriage and children. I guess I'm just not as sanctimonious as a lot of people I see on here judging Ollie and Sara.

Two things. One: there is never an excuse for cheating. Two: he never gave any indication that she was moving too fast for him. He lied to her face and cheated on her behind her back. He handled that situation in the worst way possible and is absolutely to blame for it.

Sara warned Laurel that Oliver was a player.

And then tried to sleep with him anyway. I think it's fair to say his body count meant very little to them.

 

[Capt. Marvelous]

The show has already changed a number of things. White Canary's most defining trait seems to be that she is better than Lady Shiva. Otherwise she doesn't seem all that interesting. I honestly wouldn't mind if they turn Laurel into the White Canary, as former siblings turned bitter enemies, seems to be a more interesting concept.

If I had my way, I'd mix Cupid with White Canary. Give Laurel the Mirakuru, to give her increased strength, to actually have a chance against Sara, and send her mentally completely over the edge. And she would call herself the White Canary, to basically just mock her sister.

That'd be stupider than Roy having super strength. Laurel having the power to break guys like Bronze Tiger in half would be a joke.

 

[Nathan]

That'd be stupider than Roy having super strength. Laurel having the power to break guys like Bronze Tiger in half would be a joke.

Not even remotely as stupid as having her take Sara's place.

 

[mr. peasant]

I was referring to romantic chemistry. Otherwise I would have mentioned Moira and Thea as well.

As was I...

Unbeknownst to the denizens of the Hype, there is a sizable Queencest fanbase.

 

[Nathan]

It's called wincest.

 

[JC00]

That'd be stupider than Roy having super strength. Laurel having the power to break guys like Bronze Tiger in half would be a joke.

Powers and abilities

Cupid is an exceptional martial artist, and hand to hand combatant. She gains enhanced strength but unfortunately, at the cost of her own sanity.

In what Nathan is talking about it completely works.

 

[Nathan]

This is pretty cool.

[YT]b8zJGXgHW2g[/YT]

 

[Crimz]

Season 1 Laurel kicks season 2 Laurel's ash.

 

[Gaz0680]

Season 1 Laurel was much more bearable, yes, but still somewhat whiny and annoying. I still don't think Laurel has really worked as a character at all on Arrow, although she did have some good moments with Tommy in S1.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Two things. One: there is never an excuse for cheating. Two: he never gave any indication that she was moving too fast for him. He lied to her face and cheated on her behind her back. He handled that situation in the worst way possible and is absolutely to blame for it.



And then tried to sleep with him anyway. I think it's fair to say his body count meant very little to them.

Gotta agree here. I don't care if he's a rich playboy, that doesn't excuse him from being a GIANT dukee. I don't care if a person sleeps around, just don't cheat on people. Oliver was not justified in any way for cheating on Laurel with her own sister of all people.

Again, the stuff I don't get (as I said earlier) is when the writers throw in little stuff that literally serves no other purpose than to make us dislike Laurel a bit more. The added detail that Laurel knew Sarah liked Oliver first...what was the point of that? WHY did that detail need to be added? It only made Laurel more unlikeable, and I have no idea why they would do that, unless they truly are making her a villain (which would honestly be kind of cool).

But if they aren't trying to do that, little moves like that make no sense to me. Again, as I've said before, there's a difference between tearing a character down and making the character unlikeable. I've used this example a lot, but I do it because it's such a good template: Jamie Lannister was brought to his lowest moments in Season 3 (and Book 3) of GOT, but he grew steadily more likeable as his character was broken down. The writers of this show have been doing the exact opposite with Laurel.

 

[Gaz0680]

But if they aren't trying to do that, little moves like that make no sense to me. Again, as I've said before, there's a difference between tearing a character down and making the character unlikeable. I've used this example a lot, but I do it because it's such a good template: Jamie Lannister was brought to his lowest moments in Season 3 (and Book 3) of GOT, but he grew steadily more likeable as his character was broken down. The writers of this show have been doing the exact opposite with Laurel.

Jaime Lannister's breaking down was handled exceptionally well. Laurel's character has been handled exceptionally badly - so badly in fact that the audience will never ( and should never) accept her as either Black Canary or as Oliver's true love.

With Jaime, he was an arrogant, smug, self absorbed cocky prick in season one and most of season 2. Not to mention as incestuous ******* who considered his kids as nothing more than "a squirt of seed in Cersei's ****". However, the audience was able to start seeing the positive and genuine parts of his character through his travels and interactions with Brienne. We start to see that whilst he has done some horrible things and has some unlike able traits, he also has some good traits and his own sense of morality.

It should be noted that GOT is a much higher quality show than Arrow on nearly all counts - better source material, more fully developed characters, MUCH better writing and also much better actors and acting.

Even if written well, I don't think Katie Cassidy could have acted Laurel's breakdown half as well as Nicolaj Coster-Waldau did Jaime's.

 

[Nathan]

Gotta agree here. I don't care if he's a rich playboy, that doesn't excuse him from being a GIANT dukee. I don't care if a person sleeps around, just don't cheat on people. Oliver was not justified in any way for cheating on Laurel with her own sister of all people.

I still don't understand how they even came up with that entire plot. It honestly makes none of the 3 parties look good. Even if Laurel would have remained entirely innocent. It simply makes her look like the biggest idiot in the world that she still harbors feelings for Oliver. Not only did he cheat on her, but he cheated on her with her own sister, and got her killed in the process. Oliver should have been completely off the table as a romantic interest.

I don't know how anyone else felt about it, but I honestly lost all respect for the character. It would have worked a lot better had they remained as platonic friends throughout season 1, and when Sara appears in season 2, and Laurel finds out her sister is still alive, all parties have a big talk and eventually bury the hatchet. Only then would I be ok with Laurel exploring her feelings for Oliver again.

Again, the stuff I don't get (as I said earlier) is when the writers throw in little stuff that literally serves no other purpose than to make us dislike Laurel a bit more. The added detail that Laurel knew Sarah liked Oliver first...what was the point of that? WHY did that detail need to be added? It only made Laurel more unlikeable, and I have no idea why they would do that, unless they truly are making her a villain (which would honestly be kind of cool).

It really, really would be. Laurel has the intensity for a good villain. And she just generally exudes more of a villain vibe. The only way she'd work as a hero, is if you turn her into another Huntress. So basically just another crazy vigilante.

But if they aren't trying to do that, little moves like that make no sense to me. Again, as I've said before, there's a difference between tearing a character down and making the character unlikeable. I've used this example a lot, but I do it because it's such a good template: Jamie Lannister was brought to his lowest moments in Season 3 (and Book 3) of GOT, but he grew steadily more likeable as his character was broken down. The writers of this show have been doing the exact opposite with Laurel.

I might need to start watching that show. Just to see how well they do the whole character breakdown with Jamie.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Jaime Lannister's breaking down was handled exceptionally well. Laurel's character has been handled exceptionally badly - so badly in fact that the audience will never ( and should never) accept her as either Black Canary or as Oliver's true love.

With Jaime, he was an arrogant, smug, self absorbed cocky prick in season one and most of season 2. Not to mention as incestuous ******* who considered his kids as nothing more than "a squirt of seed in Cersei's ****". However, the audience was able to start seeing the positive and genuine parts of his character through his travels and interactions with Brienne. We start to see that whilst he has done some horrible things and has some unlike able traits, he also has some good traits and his own sense of morality.

It should be noted that GOT is a much higher quality show than Arrow on nearly all counts - better source material, more fully developed characters, MUCH better writing and also much better actors and acting.

That is true. GOT characters are all wonderfully complex. Almost none of them are one-dimensional, except Joffrey (and he's one dimensional in the best way).

But I use the Jamie example to show that you can break a character down and still make us like them, or at least pity them. To give a closer to tone example, look at what they're doing with Slade. We still feel for the guy as we watch his island arc, even though he's clearly slipping into madness and villain he becomes. But we still have an emotional connection to him. I'm getting more and more drawn into who Slade is as a person. While with Laurel, they're pushing me away. Again, needles details like Laurel knowing Sarah liked Oliver first. That makes NO sense to me. I honestly don't know why it was included at all because it only makes us dislike her more. Unless they truly are going to turn Laurel into a Cupid-esque character. In which case, full steam ahead.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I still don't understand how they even came up with that entire plot. It honestly makes none of the 3 parties look good. Even if Laurel would have remained entirely innocent. It simply makes her look like the biggest idiot in the world that she still harbors feelings for Oliver. Not only did he cheat on her, but he cheated on her with her own sister, and got her killed in the process. Oliver should have been completely off the table as a romantic interest.

I don't know how anyone else felt about it, but I honestly lost all respect for the character. It would have worked a lot better had they remained as platonic friends throughout season 1, and when Sara appears in season 2, and Laurel finds out her sister is still alive, all parties have a big talk and eventually bury the hatchet. Only then I would I be ok with Laurel exploring her feelings for Oliver again.



It really, really would be. Laurel has the intensity for a good villain. And she just generally exudes more of a villain vibe. The only way she'd work as a hero, is if you turn her into another Huntress. So basically just another crazy vigilante.



I might need to start watching that show. Just to see how well they do the whole character breakdown with Jamie.

I agree with a lot of this. After all the **** Ollie did to Laurel, it doesn't make her look good when she wants to go back with him to begin with. It would have worked better if she had been platonic friends with him before the boat incident, as you said. But even in season one, I was willing to give her a pass, because honestly, I think most of us have all fallen for that person who treats us poorly, even when we know it's a bad idea, and for some reason it's hard to let them go.

But what they're doing now is just really cruddy writing, IF they do indeed still intend for her to become a hero. At this point, I really hope they do adopt the Cupid idea. I think it would be a very interesting twist.

And you really should check out GOT. If you've read the books, you'll be happy because it's one of the best book to television/film translations I've ever seen. Most (not all, but most) of the changes made in the series are actually an improvement (most likely because GRRM has input on the writing). And the Jamie arc in the show really is handled wonderfully.