Arrow Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 5

[Human Torch]

If the police and the media are going to be calling him the Hood, then that is his name within the show. And naming the hero isn't really something that needs to be built up to this degree, if characters have already christened him the Hood, then why not Green Arrow, or even just the Arrow?

It all goes back to the "Lame" moment when the name Green Arrow was dropped on the show, that just makes it all feel like the material is beneath the creators, and they are too cool for it all.

Exactly.It's pretty sad that they had Malcolm do the name drop,since it'll be beyond strange for him to be called something his arch foe said in passing.

 

[mr. peasant]

If the police and the media are going to be calling him the Hood, then that is his name within the show. And naming the hero isn't really something that needs to be built up to this degree, if characters have already christened him the Hood, then why not Green Arrow, or even just the Arrow?

It all goes back to the "Lame" moment when the name Green Arrow was dropped on the show, that just makes it all feel like the material is beneath the creators, and they are too cool for it all.

At the risk of pissing people off here, that could very well be the case; especially when taking into account all the deviations and creative freedoms they have taken with the show. I wouldn't at all be surprised if the creators had a kick-ass idea for an original TV series but the producers wanted them to do a comic book hero instead; leading to them adapting the former to fit.

 

[Drz]

It's just a name.

 

[HighFivingMF]

If the police and the media are going to be calling him the Hood, then that is his name within the show.And naming the hero isn't really something that needs to be built up to this degree, if characters have already christened him the Hood, then why not Green Arrow, or even just the Arrow?

A name isn't something that needs to be built up... Unless the writers deem it necessary to build it up. Which they apparently have, since the Hood is what they refer to the vigilante is. The show has been said to focus on the evolution of Oliver from vigilante to hero, which would, since the characters name is Green Arrow/Arrow, he will eventually take that name when he's closer to the character we all know from the comics.

Maybe I'm just looking at this from a less doom and gloom perspective, I'm not going to judge the writers on something like that until I see their full intentions on the aspect.

It all goes back to the "Lame" moment when the name Green Arrow was dropped on the show, that just makes it all feel like the material is beneath the creators, and they are too cool for it all.

That seems like more of a friendly jab to the people who are freaking out about the name. If they thought the material was below them, they wouldn't have pitched the show.

Plus, what could he have said?

Malcolm: "How about Green Arrow?"
Oliver: "... That ain't bad."

That night:
"I AM GREEN ARROW!"

 

[HighFivingMF]

At the risk of pissing people off here, that could very well be the case; especially when taking into account all the deviations and creative freedoms they have taken with the show. I wouldn't at all be surprised if the creators had a kick-ass idea for an original TV series but the producers wanted them to do a comic book hero instead; leading to them adapting the former to fit.

No, they wanted a Green Arrow show. If they had an original idea and CW pressured them to make it something different, there are how many other networks they could have gone to?

 

[mr. peasant]

No, they wanted a Green Arrow show. If they had an original idea and CW pressured them to make it something different, there are how many other networks they could have gone to?

I wouldn't know since I don't work for them. However, common sense dictates that not everyone has the luxury to shop around for a network and be assured that someone will pick up their pitch.

 

[Loki882]

Arrow seems to take quite a bit of inspiration from Mike Grell's run and Andy Diggle's Year One. Given that those stories were fantastic, the show is a perfectly acceptable version of GA. I think that the show will become more comic book like as it goes along. They've already hinted at Speedy and Arsenal and Black Canary is coming eventually.

 

[DigificWriter]

Hi, all. I've just started getting into the series (after having meant to do so 'live' but never actually getting around to it because of other commitments), and have to say that it's freaking awesome. I've only seen the pilot and about half of Episode 2 so far, but would still put it up there with series like Battlestar Galactica, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, ANGEL, Dollhouse, Babylon 5, Firefly, Stargate Atlantis, Once Upon a Time, and The West Wing in terms of quality.

In terms of the series being accurate to its source material, I honestly believe that the cry of 'comic book accuracy' gets tossed around way too much and has way too much emphasis put on it, at least when it comes to movies and television, and even if Arrow isn't as 'comic book accurate' as some people might like it to be, what I've seen so far tells me that it's an excellent series either way and deserves to be appreciated for what it's offering rather than what people think it OUGHT to be offering.

The characters - comic-book accurate or not - are all excellently written, played by actors who are skilled enough at their jobs to breath life into them and make them believable without going over-the-top, and the stories through the first two episodes are perfectly paced.

I also honestly believe that Greg Berlanti is a much better writer and showrunner than I think he gets credit for, and the fact that he co-created the show made me want to check it out just as much as the premise and characters did, and I can't wait to see what happens not only in the remainder of Season 1, but also in the forthcoming Season 2.

 

[Loki882]

Add Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Dexter, Game of Thrones, Sons of Anarchy, and Vampire Diaries (I admit I like it, regret nothing) and I'll agree with everything you say DigificWriter.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ I haven't seen any of those shows, so all I can do is compare Arrow to what I HAVE seen.

I do want to add Defiance to the list of shows that match Arrow quality-wise, though (although it's been several weeks since I watched the show, something I really need to remedy when I have a chance).

I just finished Episode 2, and really like the dichotomy that the writers are trying to establish between Oliver's life by day and his life as the Green Arrow at night, especially as epitomized by his actions and behavior at the Robert Queen Applied Sciences Center groundbreaking and his confession at his father's empty gravesite in the backyard of the Queen estate.

It's going to be really interesting to see what happens next, especially with regards to Moira Queen's connections to the corruption Oliver's trying to fight against, and I also can't wait to see what else Oliver does to try and create this false persona of himself to hide what he's truly doing.

 

[HighFivingMF]

I wouldn't know since I don't work for them. However, common sense dictates that not everyone has the luxury to shop around for a network and be assured that someone will pick up their pitch.

Yeah, not everyone. But the creators here have decent reputations and have worked with many other networks. They could at the very least get a meeting to pitch wherever they wanted. Hell, Berlanti had other shows premiere on USA and CBS just this year.

Plus Greg Berlanti, Marc Guggenheim, and Andrew Kreisberg are superhero fans either way. Berlanti and Guggenheim wrote the early drafts of the Green Lantern script and a draft of the Flash script and a sequel to Green Lantern that didn't get off the ground. Berlanti and Guggenheim, along with Kreisberg, have a Booster Gold series in development at SyFy. Guggenheim has had comics runs on The Flash, Justice Society, Aquaman, Blade, Wolverine, Punisher, and Amazing Spider-Man. Kreisberg has written for Green Arrow, Batman, Vibe, and the Justice League cartoon. And all three write for the Arrow tie-in comic. That sure is quite an extensive work history for people who think they're above this goofy ****.

Just because they put their own spins on the mythology, like mostly everyone who ever takes the reigns on any property, doesn't mean they're not interested in it.

 

[Loki882]

DigificWriter, If you like the show now, wait till you see the second half of season 1, it is three times as good. It is fantastic and you will be seriously guessing what will happen next. Also, cool new characters (not saying who).

 

[HighFivingMF]

Also, cool new characters (not saying who).

Great job not spoiling that it's Crazy Quilt behind everything.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ I'm not spoiler-adverse, so I know about most of the major characters who show up as things progress. I'm particularly interested in seeing how things play out between Oliver and Helena/Huntress once her character arrives on the scene.

It is good to know, though, that the quality of the series only gets better as things progress, because it offers further proof of just how talented the PTBs behind it are.

I'm in the process of watching Lone Gunmen right now, and have to say that I really like Laurel's character and the interesting conflict of interest she clearly has when it comes to Oliver, as is evidenced by the scene where her lawyer partner Joanna catches her looking at the online announcement of Oliver planning to open a nightclub (which, I have to say, is a really great way to provide cover for his nocturnal vigilante exploits).

 

[Loki882]

If you don't mind one spoiler, the ultimate badass appears on the show JOHN BARROWMAN.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ Already knew about Malcolm Merlyn (courtesy of the above-mentioned non-adverseness to spoilers, as well as checking out KSiteTV's Green Arrow sub-site), and about him being the Big Bad of the season, something which will be interesting to see play itself out. I'm not familiar with Barrowman as an actor, though, so his name doesn't mean a whole lot to me in and of itself.

 

[Loki882]

Malcolm Merlyn is a badass, and surprisingly complex. I loved him as a villain.

 

[DigificWriter]

I just finished Lone Gunmen, and have to say that, as good as the pilot and Honor Thy Father were, it's on a whole other level in terms of awesomeness.

One of Greg Berlanti's greatest strengths as a writer is his ability to create really compelling interpersonal relationship drama, and it's a trait that's shown up in each of the first 3 eps of Arrow in one form or another. Lone Gunmen in particular features some great examples of just how good Berlanti is when it comes to interpersonal drama, with my two personal favorites being the scene in Max Fuller's nightclub where Thea spills the beans on Tommy and Laurel having been sleeping together and the scene in Thea's bedroom where Moira tries to connect with her by relating that story about the stray cat.

I haven't talked a whole lot about Walter Steele yet, but he's a very interesting character who reminds me a lot of a cross between Lex Luthor, Lionel Luthor, Patrick 'Trip' Darling III (from Dirty Sexy Money), and Richard Clayton (from the 2003 WB series Tarzan). He clearly cares for Moira and Thea, but you also get the feeling that he's not entirely what he appears to be, which makes for an interesting dichotomy and makes his character somebody to keep an eye on as things progress.

Diggle's another character I haven't talked a whole lot about in specifics, but I really like him. He represents an awesomely unique take on the typical 'Alfred'-type' helper that a lot of superheroes seem to have in their lives in one form or another, and the actor who plays him, David Ramsey, does so with this detached sort of badassery and dry wit that gives the impression that he might suspect something's going on but isn't going to butt in and ask what's going on. I also really liked the introduction of his widowed sister-in-law.

Speaking of Diggle, Oliver revealing his secret to him was the perfect way to end the episode, offering just enough of a cliffhanger tease to keep audiences interested while still leaving more story to be told later on.

 

[Snow Queen]

I just finished Lone Gunmen, and have to say that, as good as the pilot and Honor Thy Father were, it's on a whole other level in terms of awesomeness.

If that was another level, the season finale's in another galaxy. Just wait, it's great.

 

[mr. peasant]

Yeah, not everyone. But the creators here have decent reputations and have worked with many other networks. They could at the very least get a meeting to pitch wherever they wanted. Hell, Berlanti had other shows premiere on USA and CBS just this year.

Plus Greg Berlanti, Marc Guggenheim, and Andrew Kreisberg are superhero fans either way. Berlanti and Guggenheim wrote the early drafts of the Green Lantern script and a draft of the Flash script and a sequel to Green Lantern that didn't get off the ground. Berlanti and Guggenheim, along with Kreisberg, have a Booster Gold series in development at SyFy. Guggenheim has had comics runs on The Flash, Justice Society, Aquaman, Blade, Wolverine, Punisher, and Amazing Spider-Man. Kreisberg has written for Green Arrow, Batman, Vibe, and the Justice League cartoon. And all three write for the Arrow tie-in comic. That sure is quite an extensive work history for people who think they're above this goofy ****.

Just because they put their own spins on the mythology, like mostly everyone who ever takes the reigns on any property, doesn't mean they're not interested in it.

Ah. I stand corrected. I didn't realise their background. In which case, that tells me that these people are savvy enough to know what works and what wouldn't for a comic book adaptation to TV; including whether or not the name 'Green Arrow' would work. Plus, in addition to their status as comic book lovers, it also tells me that they are able to and don't mind taking a ribbing about the cornier elements of their chosen genre. The changes and take thats aren't meant as insults or disrespect towards comic books or the character.

 

[DigificWriter]

I finished An Innocent Man late last night, and have to say that the episodes keep on getting better and better the more the writers reveal about Oliver's 5 years on the island and juxtapose those revelations with his present-day exploits both by day and by night. Diggle accepting Oliver's request that he work with him was sort of a foregone conclusion, but the fun was in seeing Diggle work through the conundrum of actually accepting Oliver's request, juxtaposed against Oliver's hunt for justice for Peter Declan, his attempts to get back in Laurel's good graces, and Laurel's interactions with her father and with Oliver in his guise as Arrow, all of which play to the aforementioned strengths of Greg Berlanti's writing style and ability to create compelling interpersonal drama.

It also doesn't hurt that there's this subtle yet still palpable hinted undercurrent of attraction towards Arrow on Laurel's part, which actually plays well into her interactions with Oliver by day.

The subplot involving Walter enlisting the help of Felicity to investigate what happened to 2.6 million dollars of Queen Consolidated's money was also very well-handled, giving him something to do besides just be Moira's husband, which is all to the good because it helps flesh him out and establishes him as the antithesis of Moira and the people she's working with like Malcolm Merlyn.

Speaking of, I was expecting his first appearance to be heralded with more aplomb, but he just sort of shows up in the episode without any real introduction. Given that he ends up being the Big Bad for the season, the fact that he wasn't actually identified in dialogue caught me a little bit off-guard, but didn't adversely affect the episode as a whole and is only notable BECAUSE it caught me off-guard.

I was also rather surprised that they pulled the 'Detective Lance sees Oliver with his Arrow costume' card so early, but it keeps things interesting and led to yet another great use of a cliffhanger ending in order to keep audiences guessing as to what's going to happen next. The fact that the cliffhanger happened just after Diggle finally accepted Oliver's request to be his partner only made the entire thing better.

Of course, having just said that, I turn around and get a lot of my questions as to why the writers went where they did vis a vis Quentin Lance discovering Oliver's identity as Arrow in An Innocent Man answered within the first 12 minutes of Damaged, proving once again that these writers really know what they're doing (as if I needed any more proof).

I'm still watching Damaged as I type this, but I REALLY like Walter Steele; he was interesting in the first 3 eps, but has really started to 'come into his own', as it were, in both this ep and An Innocent Man. He's clearly got principles that he's not willing to violate and has enough sense and savvy to realize that something's not adding up, especially given that Robert Queen was his friend and he does genuinely seem to care about the Queen family.

I'm not entirely sure that the flashbacks to Oliver's time on the island that this episode presents really have all that much to do with what's going on in the present, which marks the first time in four eps where that's been the case, but given that I'm still only 16 minutes or so into the episode, we'll see if that changes by the end of things. On top of that, I'm not that familiar with DC Comics outside of Batman, so the names Edward Fyers and Deathstroke don't mean a whole lot to me, which also contributes to the slight feeling of disconnect I just mentioned with regards to the flashback scenes and their relevance to the present-day part of the episode's storyline.

I did like the scene between Oliver and Thea where he makes a joke about a shot glass and 'Pandaman', though; it's one of those lines that could've fallen completely flat, but succeeds because Stephen Amell is able to deliver it sincerely and deadpan, which makes it work as intended.

Speaking of Thea, I really like her character, original though she may be when it comes to the Green Arrow comic mythos; she's interesting, and she gives Oliver someone to play off of in a way that he can't with any of the other people in his life.

You know, I really ought to wait until I finish an episode to comment on it, because the flashbacks to Oliver's time on the island suddenly became a lot more relevant than they were when I questioned their relevance two paragraphs above thanks to the polygraph scene. I really liked Amell and Paul Blackthorne's acting in the scene, especially when Oliver admits that he feels like he killed Sara; we could already tell he felt that way based on his actions in the previous episodes, but putting it out there in the open really enhanced the scene.

Quentin Lance is really an interesting character for me, as I keep flip-flopping between liking him and wanting somebody - such as Oliver or Laurel - to smack him for being so pigheaded and obstinate. Paul Blackthorne is a great actor, though, and really makes him and his stubborn hate towards the Queen family and Oliver work without being over-the-top or feeling forced, even if, as noted, there are times that I think he deserves a good smack for being so stubbornly hateful.

Man, Diggle just keeps more and more awesome episode by episode. His relationship with Oliver is great, especially when he chews him out for not letting him in on the plan to throw everybody - including Detective Lance - off his scent and allow him to continue to do his work as Arrow by having him put on the hood and be seen in The Glades.

Berlanti and Co. really know their source material, which makes it great when they slip in little nods to things from the comics such as Laurel's comment about the fishnets. It'll be interesting to see whether or not they make the reference more than a little insider nod in Season 2.

I also really like what they're doing with Laurel's character and her relationship with Oliver. I've seen her character compared to Rachel Dawes from Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, but I really don't see that as being a negative in any way, especially given that one of the biggest strengths of Rachel's character - regardless of what you felt about the two actresses who played her - was the depth of her relationship with Bruce and the complexities thereof, something that is also very evident when it comes to Laurel and Oliver's relationship, as epitomized yet again in this ep where she talks about her mother leaving and never coming back.

The rest of the scene was equally as great, especially culminating in that kiss, although I'm again surprised that they went there this early on in the season, especially with 18 eps still left to go.

In an ep as chock-full of excellent stuff as this ep is, the writers really took it to a yet another level with the scene between Moira and Walter.

You really don't want to piss Moira Queen off, as demonstrated by that incredibly tense scene between her and Malcolm Merlyn where she told him in no uncertain terms to leave her family alone regardless of his suspicions. Given that he ends up being the Big Bad for the season, it'll be interesting to see what, if anything, she's willing to do to back that threat up as things progress, since it's kind of a given that he's going to end up violating that warning one way or another.

Amell and Katie Cassidy really have great chemistry together, and as long as the writers keep handing them top-notch material to work with, they're going to keep hitting homeruns with that material. As good as the rest of their scenes in this ep were, the scene where she confronts him with the polygraph results really demonstrated just how great the two actors are and how much the writers have invested in the Oliver/Laurel relationship.

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I really like Oliver's narrations and think they help add something to the episodes, but it was neat and nice to see someone else doing a narration for once. Diggle's little speech to Oliver was a great match for the ending montage of Walter leaving, Thea looking at the arrowhead Oliver gave her, and Laurel coming to drag her dad home after he'd clearly been drinking way too much.

One final thing: as far as catchphrases go, 'you have failed this city' is, IMO, one of the better ones, and makes a ton of sense for who Oliver Queen is both as a person and as Arrow, and having that line be the final spoken dialogue in the ep before the fade-to-black was actually a nice little bit of editing and a great way to end what really was the best ep I've watched so far.

 

[greenlantern248]

I called it being Isabel back on May 10th. (page 18). She was the only person I can think of that was behind those legs.

 

[Fans of Reilly]

Hi, all. I've just started getting into the series (after having meant to do so 'live' but never actually getting around to it because of other commitments), and have to say that it's freaking awesome. I've only seen the pilot and about half of Episode 2 so far, but would still put it up there with series like Battlestar Galactica, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, ANGEL, Dollhouse, Babylon 5, Firefly, Stargate Atlantis, Once Upon a Time, and The West Wing in terms of quality.

In terms of the series being accurate to its source material, I honestly believe that the cry of 'comic book accuracy' gets tossed around way too much and has way too much emphasis put on it, at least when it comes to movies and television, and even if Arrow isn't as 'comic book accurate' as some people might like it to be, what I've seen so far tells me that it's an excellent series either way and deserves to be appreciated for what it's offering rather than what people think it OUGHT to be offering.

The characters - comic-book accurate or not - are all excellently written, played by actors who are skilled enough at their jobs to breath life into them and make them believable without going over-the-top, and the stories through the first two episodes are perfectly paced.

I also honestly believe that Greg Berlanti is a much better writer and showrunner than I think he gets credit for, and the fact that he co-created the show made me want to check it out just as much as the premise and characters did, and I can't wait to see what happens not only in the remainder of Season 1, but also in the forthcoming Season 2.

Stargate Atlantis BUT not Stargate SG1

 

[Loki882]

I stopped reading the GA/BC series very early on (I hate that they turned Oliver into a cheating *****e, which he never was before Winick took over). They even claimed that he cheated with Shado, which was a rape. They made Dinah an incompetent damsel in distress. So forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Kreisberg's run on the book even more hated that Winick's (I heard that on another forum)?

 

[Fans of Reilly]

I stopped reading the GA/BC series very early on (I hate that they turned Oliver into a cheating *****e, which he never was before Winick took over). They even claimed that he cheated with Shado, which was a rape. They made Dinah an incompetent damsel in distress. So forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Kreisberg's run on the book even more hated that Winick's (I heard that on another forum)?

more hated that Winick's I did not know that is a impossibility

one of good Good things about the new 52 They ignored Winick's changes did with Kyle Rayner Family background