Avengers vs. X-Men: 2012 Event - Part 2

[JewishHobbit]

How is the events of Fall of the Mutants effecting the books today? The X-men have long since been back from the dead and went back to the mansion, not to mention Cypher's been resurrected as well. Marvel threw in almost all of their books into Inferno with a tie-in. Did it really matter outside of the X-men when it was more of a cash grab to get people to look at books which were apart of the crossover, which really didnt effect anything at all? Some stuff have long lasting effects; some dont. Thats how it is today and thats how it was back then as well. Dont look at the past with rose colored glasses and think that wasnt the case bc it was

The death of Doug Rasey lasted up until, what, two years ago? It was the current Marvel that's decided Death doesn't matter that changed that. That was a major long-lasting effect. X-Factor's Fall of the Mutants tie-in is the most long lasting. It was that story (and the lead-up to it) that solidified Apocalypse as a major villain as well as the idea of his using horsemen. It gave us Caliban as a horsemen and that stuck until just prior to Messiah Complex. It turned Warren into Archangel and that stuck in one aspect or another until Austen's Hope arc and then came back with X-Force and led through the end of Uncanny X-Force just recently. Uncanny X-Men's Fall of the Mutants effects didn't last near as long but still longer than today's events.

Not all of these are lasting through today but certainly more than a year or two... typically a decade or two.

As for Inferno the effects of the X-Men books are still being felt, heck, even with the current issues of Uncanny regarding Sinister's plan to use Madelyne Pryors to contain the Phoenix Force. We have Sinister himself, who was introduced for Inferno, as a top tier X-Villain. His interest in the Summers family and cloning, beginning in Inferno, is still a plot to this day regarding his clone army. Anything having to do with Illyana still lingers in places now.

As for tie-ins the only ones I've read were Spider-Man's and the main story there was Hobgoblin taking on the demon. That status quo lasted until the mid-90's and then the Demogoblin existing and Jason Macendale trying to prove himself on his own lasted another 3 or 4 years after that. Again, a decade give or take.

My argument wasn't that it was a cash grab, that was fine because it didn't over do it like today, my argument is that none of the events nowadays matter like they did back then. Back then a book would often have a status quo that lasted years, even decades, and it would work. These days the status quo for most titles are set for one year and one year only, and the ones that aren't set for a year don't matter in the long run.


And I'm not looking back with rose-colored glasses because I have no nostalgia for those titles at all. I started reading WELL after that time period. In fact, I've actually NEVER read Infero all the way through and can barely remember the X-Men's portion of Fall of the Mutants, but I know of the effects they've had.

 

[runawayboulder]

Doug Ramsey had the in between time merged with Warlock as "Douglock".

The ASM tie in had Harry Osborn take up the mantle of the Green Goblin for the first time since the 70's. Those ramifications carried on thru to his death in SSM #200 years later.

The DD tie ins had him encounter Mephisto for the first time and it became a key point in his life.

 

[Texas Zombie]

Is this story any good?

To be honest I haven't followed a major comic event since batman RIP, and a major marvel event since the invasion.

Good?

 

[Havok83]

The death of Doug Rasey lasted up until, what, two years ago? It was the current Marvel that's decided Death doesn't matter that changed that. That was a major long-lasting effect. X-Factor's Fall of the Mutants tie-in is the most long lasting. It was that story (and the lead-up to it) that solidified Apocalypse as a major villain as well as the idea of his using horsemen. It gave us Caliban as a horsemen and that stuck until just prior to Messiah Complex. It turned Warren into Archangel and that stuck in one aspect or another until Austen's Hope arc and then came back with X-Force and led through the end of Uncanny X-Force just recently. Uncanny X-Men's Fall of the Mutants effects didn't last near as long but still longer than today's events.

Not all of these are lasting through today but certainly more than a year or two... typically a decade or two.

As for Inferno the effects of the X-Men books are still being felt, heck, even with the current issues of Uncanny regarding Sinister's plan to use Madelyne Pryors to contain the Phoenix Force. We have Sinister himself, who was introduced for Inferno, as a top tier X-Villain. His interest in the Summers family and cloning, beginning in Inferno, is still a plot to this day regarding his clone army. Anything having to do with Illyana still lingers in places now.

As for tie-ins the only ones I've read were Spider-Man's and the main story there was Hobgoblin taking on the demon. That status quo lasted until the mid-90's and then the Demogoblin existing and Jason Macendale trying to prove himself on his own lasted another 3 or 4 years after that. Again, a decade give or take.

My argument wasn't that it was a cash grab, that was fine because it didn't over do it like today, my argument is that none of the events nowadays matter like they did back then. Back then a book would often have a status quo that lasted years, even decades, and it would work. These days the status quo for most titles are set for one year and one year only, and the ones that aren't set for a year don't matter in the long run.


And I'm not looking back with rose-colored glasses because I have no nostalgia for those titles at all. I started reading WELL after that time period. In fact, I've actually NEVER read Infero all the way through and can barely remember the X-Men's portion of Fall of the Mutants, but I know of the effects they've had.

But now you're being selective to prove a point. You acknowledge that Disassembled, House of M, Messiah Complex, and Second Coming are making an impact today but then write it off bc it contradicts what you are saying. Those are pretty big exceptions

As for other stories, CW led to the division in the Avengers which is why there are 3 distinct groups, which are all affiliated now but the aftermath of that led to them realizing the value in having multiple teams There is also now an Academy dedicated to training the younger heroes bc of what happened in that story. Secret Invasion does have ramifications today. It brought Mockingbird back from the dead. Wasp is still dead. Siege? Ares and Sentry are still dead. That led into the Heroic Age with Captain America back on top where he still is today. Fear Itself? Collossus being the Juggernaut has been a major part of the characters development and story arc within the X-books. That was pretty significant and that is constantly utilized in UXM

Not everything needs to have long lasting effects years after the fact, and not being so doesnt make it a bad story. Not everything back then did just as there are some things today that do. It goes both ways.

 

[Belvedere]

Is this story any good?

To be honest I haven't followed a major comic event since batman RIP, and a major marvel event since the invasion.

Good?

No, don't waste your time/money/download limit.

 

[runawayboulder]

Is this story any good?

To be honest I haven't followed a major comic event since batman RIP, and a major marvel event since the invasion.

Good?

Not good. It's not as bad as Fear Itself but it's on it's own level of mediocrity. I'd compare it to Civil War, a solid idea on paper with terrible execution and bad characterization.

If you're still curious, wait until it's over and try and score the softcover trade off of Amazon for as cheap as possible.

 

[Mad Ones]

Not everything needs to have long lasting effects years after the fact, and not being so doesnt make it a bad story. Not everything back then did just as there are some things today that do. It goes both ways.

And if they did have long lasting effects people would complain about massive status quo changes after each event... which they still do anyway I guess. Lose lose with fans.

 

[Havok83]

And if they did have long lasting effects people would complain about massive status quo changes after each event... which they still do anyway I guess. Lose lose with fans.

that true. When the status quo for the X-men changed to put them in SF, alot of people complained about it and wanted things to go back to how it used to be rght away. And on the flipside, you have complaints about status quo changes meaning nothing bc they go back too quick.

 

[Manic]

Up until Schism put a school back in the state of New York, the effects of each event from the last decade have lasted in a way that's yet to be reversed. Mutants are still endangered, they're still on the West Coast, Cyclops still owns an island, Magneto and several old bad guys are still living with them, etc.

Really, my problem is that these status quo changing events happen too often. The X-Men only had their base in San Francisco for one year (real time) before moving to Utopia and refusing to set foot in the US. Their deportation from the US only lasted one year (real time) before they started re-entering California again. The new status sticks around for one year before being changed again, and that's too much.

 

[Havok83]

Xmen are still in SF. I didnt think going from mainland to Utopia was that much of a significant difference and I wouldnt call it a full status quo change

 

[Manic]

It was a pretty big change before Siege. One day, the X-Men are in San Francisco with a base in the Marin Headlands and a working relationship with the mayor. Then the Dark Avengers crossover happened, and the X-Men had not only moved to Utopia, but they weren't allowed to openly set foot in the United States without Norman Osborn threatening to hunt them down.

It wasn't until after Siege took Osborn down that the X-Men could have stories set in the US again without them skulking around in secret, and they didn't go back to having their working relationship with the mayor & police of SF until after Second Coming.

 

[Havok83]

I really didnt see much of a change in Uncanny before and after Utopia. They moved their base but I never felt it really changed the potential stories all that much. It was relatively minor at least in comparison to shutting down the school and moving to SF or Australia in the past.

 

[JewishHobbit]

But now you're being selective to prove a point. You acknowledge that Disassembled, House of M, Messiah Complex, and Second Coming are making an impact today but then write it off bc it contradicts what you are saying. Those are pretty big exceptions

Not really when you take in the number of events we've had, including the minor ones. And honestly, now that AvX is happening and they're wrapping up the plots that began in those events they'll start winding down and fade away for something else.

As for other stories, CW led to the division in the Avengers which is why there are 3 distinct groups, which are all affiliated now but the aftermath of that led to them realizing the value in having multiple teams.

That was nothing new though. They've had multiple teams in the past (West Coast) or one large team that would utilize squads (Johns run I think it was). It seems more to me that that was just an excuse to stack up on the number of Avenger books. Civil War didn't introduce anything knew in that regard other than one Avenger team hunting another. Once that status quo ended (a year later) it was back to old status quos.

There is also now an Academy dedicated to training the younger heroes bc of what happened in that story.

If I'm not mistaken wasn't that due to the aftermath of Secret Invasion with Osborn's messing with those kids? And it's only been two years since that happened and sales aren't stellar. I don't expect that to last.

Secret Invasion does have ramifications today. It brought Mockingbird back from the dead. Wasp is still dead. Siege? Ares and Sentry are still dead.

Again, death and resurrection means nothing anymore so none of that matters. Do any of us believe that those deaths are perminant? Nope, not a one of us. So what do they matter? The fact that a long lasting death is more surprising than the death itself is sad. The fact that a death lasting two years is suddenly considered long lasting is even worse.

That led into the Heroic Age with Captain America back on top where he still is today.

This one I'll grant you, but still, it's a new status quo. I can't imagine it'd last much longer. Especially with the way that the people have been turning on the Avengers of late.

Fear Itself? Collossus being the Juggernaut has been a major part of the characters development and story arc within the X-books. That was pretty significant and that is constantly utilized in UXM

If Colossus is still dealing with Cyttorak ten or fifteen years from now like Archangel was then I'll give it to you. Until then it's just a plot.

 

[runawayboulder]

If I'm not mistaken wasn't that due to the aftermath of Secret Invasion with Osborn's messing with those kids? And it's only been two years since that happened and sales aren't stellar. I don't expect that to last.

The kids were introduced at the start of the Heroic Age but their back-story coincides with Dark Reign.

 

[Havok83]

Not really when you take in the number of events we've had, including the minor ones. And honestly, now that AvX is happening and they're wrapping up the plots that began in those events they'll start winding down and fade away for something else.

Maybe. We'll have to wait and se how AvX pans out.

That was nothing new though. They've had multiple teams in the past (West Coast) or one large team that would utilize squads (Johns run I think it was). It seems more to me that that was just an excuse to stack up on the number of Avenger books. Civil War didn't introduce anything knew in that regard other than one Avenger team hunting another. Once that status quo ended (a year later) it was back to old status quos.

It didnt go back to the old status quo a year later. SI happened and instead of things returning to how they were, we had the Dark Avengers take over and be the main team with the rest as outlaws. That was something new and intereting concept, having a team of villians literally replace the hero's mantles in the public eye

If I'm not mistaken wasn't that due to the aftermath of Secret Invasion with Osborn's messing with those kids? And it's only been two years since that happened and sales aren't stellar. I don't expect that to last.

No, it happened after CW with Avengers: The Initative, which was a book launched directly out of that event with the purpose of training the next generation. Academy is a continuation of that concept and launched out of Siege

Again, death and resurrection means nothing anymore so none of that matters. Do any of us believe that those deaths are perminant? Nope, not a one of us. So what do they matter? The fact that a long lasting death is more surprising than the death itself is sad. The fact that a death lasting two years is suddenly considered long lasting is even worse.

How many times was Magneto killed off and came back from the dead? Jean Grey had her own infamous resurrection back then as well. Storm was killed off for a few issues. Warren was killed off and came back. There was also Norman Osborn, and Sinister. Seriously characters were beibng killed off and brought back within years or even months. Few deaths were really permanently bc there was always the looming thought that they could be reversed and often times they were.

This one I'll grant you, but still, it's a new status quo. I can't imagine it'd last much longer. Especially with the way that the people have been turning on the Avengers of late.

If Colossus is still dealing with Cyttorak ten or fifteen years from now like Archangel was then I'll give it to you. Until then it's just a plot.

I guess so and fair enough but you cant really compare things today to back then and write it off bc they havent had the time to get to that point.

 

[JewishHobbit]

It didnt go back to the old status quo a year later. SI happened and instead of things returning to how they were, we had the Dark Avengers take over and be the main team with the rest as outlaws. That was something new and intereting concept, having a team of villians literally replace the hero's mantles in the public eye

You're right, but the point is the status quo changed a year later for another status quo, which laster a year, and then that set up another status quo. None of it lasted beyond a year so why care about it? When they announce the "NEXT BIG THING" regarding status quos why should we do anything more than roll our eyes? It'll only be for 12 issues or so.

No, it happened after CW with Avengers: The Initative, which was a book launched directly out of that event with the purpose of training the next generation. Academy is a continuation of that concept and launched out of Siege

Okay, I'll grant you that one. Despite how good the first year of Initiative was the idea of training Avengers wasn't new to me. It just made me shrug. The X-Men have been doing this since the 80's with the New Mutants, Generation X, New X-Men (and all its incarnations), and Generation Hope. I know it was new for the Avengers but it was an old plot for us X-fans.

How many times was Magneto killed off and came back from the dead? Jean Grey had her own infamous resurrection back then as well. Storm was killed off for a few issues. Warren was killed off and came back. There was also Norman Osborn, and Sinister. Seriously characters were beibng killed off and brought back within years or even months. Few deaths were really permanently bc there was always the looming thought that they could be reversed and often times they were.

But it definately happened less back then. Magneto I can only really remember dying in X-Men 3 back in the early 90's. The other two times (both in Morrison's run) was in the modern Quesada era that I'm complaining about.

Jean was killed off and that stayed for quite a while and they had no intent on bringing her back when it happened. It wasn't even a consideration for Claremont. It was forced to happen later. It was intended to mean something long term. Warren was killed off but showed I think in the next issue that that wasn't the case so that wasn't intended to be taken as a real death. Norman's death was a big deal until the Clone Saga. Not Quesada's era but still fairly recent. His death meant just as much as Gwen Stacy's.

I'll give you Storm though.

I guess so and fair enough but you cant really compare things today to back then and write it off bc they havent had the time to get to that point.

I'm going off of track record though. How long do modern status quos or deaths last? They just don't with a few shocking exceptions. Jean is the main one over the past decade or so. Right now major dead people are: Nightcrawler, Stature, Ares, Sentry, and Wasp. Sadly, I don't find myself caring at all. The only one of these characters that I see staying dead is Sentry because Bendis wrote him into the dirt and I don't think anyone else would want to touch the convoluted mess that he became. We all know that Nightcrawler, Wasp, Ares, and Stature will be back so why care?

I mean, are they any different from Cable, Ariel, Vanisher, Bucky, Basalisk, Mockingbird, Yellowjacket, Puck, Shaman, the rest of Alpha Flight, Doug Ramsey, Thor, Captain Marvel, Starlord, Gamora, Drax, Scott Lang, Vision, Thanos, Apocalypse, Angel, Magik, Hawkeye, Blackbolt, Human Torch, Harry Osborn, D'Ken, Xavier, Madelyne Pryor, etc.

And those are just some examples off the top of my head since Civil War.

Death means nothing in comics these days, nor do status quos. So why care about any of it?

 

[Havok83]

You're right, but the point is the status quo changed a year later for another status quo, which laster a year, and then that set up another status quo. None of it lasted beyond a year so why care about it? When they announce the "NEXT BIG THING" regarding status quos why should we do anything more than roll our eyes? It'll only be for 12 issues or so.

I'll agree that they pull off far more often stunts which promote a big change. It does get annoying

But it definately happened less back then. Magneto I can only really remember dying in X-Men 3 back in the early 90's. The other two times (both in Morrison's run) was in the modern Quesada era that I'm complaining about.

LOL...Magneto has been "killed" off quite a few times only to return again.

Avengers 53 - He falls out of an airship and plunges to his death in the water and the rocks below

UXM 63 - In the Savage Land, he was crushed under metal debris he attempted to hurl at the X-men

X-men 3 - He chooses to stay on Asteroid M as its being destroyed

X-men 113 - He is stabbed in the chest by Wolverine

New X-men 114 - He was apparently killed in the Genosha sentinel massacre

New X-men 150 - He was decapitated by Wolverine

New Avengers 20 - His comatose body was on the plane that exploded, presumably killing him in the process

At least these are the ones I can recall. I wouldnt be surprised if there's more

 

[JewishHobbit]

I've actually never read those earlier issues prior to X-Men 3, which was his first real death that was supposed to be a death, for me. 113 was never supposed to be a death scene, nor was New Avengers 20. Nonetheless, from X-Men 113 through new Avengers 20 were all the modern Quesada era that I complain about.

 

[runawayboulder]

Those "deaths" in X-Men #113 and #150 were immediately dispelled in the next issue/arc. I really wouldn't count those.

But IMO, the bad guys are supposed to "die" all the time. Those moments allow the heroes to feel a false sense of security that the won the day and let their guards down until the next confrontation. It's a plot device used in comics since the dawn of time.

Bad guys always either:
1. Escape at the end of any fight or....
2. Are thought to have been killed in an avalanche or some s**t like that.

Now killing of heroes is completely different, it's a cheap ploy to score sales half the time.

 

[Havok83]

I would count 150. It was Morrison's intention for Xorn to be Magneto and for him to die there. He left and Marvel went back and started retconning his stuff

 

[JewishHobbit]

True, and it did take longer than some returns do... a whole 5 issues.

 

[BoredGuy]

Marvel's retconning gave me such a headache on that.
I still had no idea what happened in that story until, like, a month ago

 

[JewishHobbit]

Yeah, I've got it figured out. It takes away a LOT from Morrison's run but I think it works better for X-Men in the long run. If only they'd have retconned anything having to do with Emma.

 

[DoomJester]

Yeah, I've got it figured out. It takes away a LOT from Morrison's run but I think it works better for X-Men in the long run. If only they'd have retconned anything having to do with Emma.

I'm happy Magneto was brought back. The Xorn posing as Magneto posing as Xorn thing was very weird but I'm happy Magneto came back. I like him now. And I fell in love with Emma Frost and the X-Men books because of Grant's run. I think Grant knocked New X-Men out of the park and Emma was one of the things that helped make it that way for me.

I really wish he'd come back to Marvel...

 

[runawayboulder]

I'd like to see a Morrison return one day to see what he could do with other characters at Marvel. I don't think it will ever happen though because he seems like a DC guy for life. The same reason why we'll never see Jim Lee or Geoff Johns do Marvel work again.