Avengers vs. X-Men: 2012 Event - Part 2

[Manic]

I wish that people would stop saying Scott abandoned Xavier's dream. Scott still dreamed of peaceful coexistence between mutants and humans. He was just willing to do some really seedy s*** to get there. And Scott's means were only slightly more underhanded than Charles'. Chuck had a spy network, lied to get people to follow him, and erased a few minds along the way. Scott had a bunch of wanted murderers murdered.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Scott moved the X-Men to their own island fortress. That seems to run pretty far counter to peacefully coexisting with humanity.

And I never said anything about Xavier's being a stand-up guy. I wish he still were, but after recent writers have dragged him to lower and lower depths in the past 15 years or so, that's a vain hope. Whatever he did, though, he at least managed to keep it mostly separate from the X-Men, who were supposed to be his shining example of mutants working to protect everyone, humans and mutants alike. Scott's turned them into his own personal, pro-mutant army and he doesn't give a s*** what kind of message that sends to the rest of the world.

 

[Spider-Nerd]

Scott moved the x-men to Utopia, but it's not as if they were isolated in space on asteroid M. They were very much welcome and acting to save both human and mutant lives in san francisco on a regular basis. It's not as if they moved onto the island and told the entire world to **** off then started a movement stating that humans should serve mutants since humans are inferior...

 

[Mad Ones]

Has anyone read the storyline where they moved to Utopia? It's not like he moved them there for fun. They tried living in actual San Fran until Norman Osbourn and a huge population of bigoted humans tried taking their rights away. I'd want to live somewhere else too if America was about to pass pro-eugenics laws.

And I've yet to see any example of Cyclops enjoying his time as "dictator." He was literally the only one who stood up and he only cared about getting Hope back and safe. Not ruling forever.

 

[JewishHobbit]

That's how I feel about most people that love Bendisvengers. They probably never read the Stern, Harras, Busiek or Johns issues so they wouldn't understand why he's been a pain in my ass.

I read Harras and enjoyed it a lot. I don't know if it was the entire run but at least it was the entire Proctor storyline. I still prefer Bendis. I've also read small bits and pieces of Busiek and Johns but neither could really grab me... or Austen. I've never read Stern.

I've never claimed that Bendis is a great writer, I've just always said that he doesn't deserve the flack he gets. He's hit or miss with his Avengers stuff but overall I enjoyed it. He also did well at Daredevil, Ultimate Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Alias, Moon Knight, and Pulse. In fact, the only "bad" things he's done was Mighty Avengers, Ultimate X-Men, and the current Avengers series (save the second arc). I've enjoyed every other thing that he's written. I also hear his indy stuff is good but I've not read any of it.

 

[Havok83]

I wish that people would stop saying Scott abandoned Xavier's dream. Scott still dreamed of peaceful coexistence between mutants and humans. He was just willing to do some really seedy s*** to get there. And Scott's means were only slightly more underhanded than Charles'. Chuck had a spy network, lied to get people to follow him, and erased a few minds along the way. Scott had a bunch of wanted murderers murdered.

Well he kinda did and he's acknowledged that. Maybe abandon isnt the right word, but he explained it perfectly here

 

[TheCorpulent1]

See, everyone points out that things are so dire for the mutants now and defend Cyclops' more militant stance, but I always have stuff like this in the back of my mind. Abandoning Xavier's dream because it's inconvenient at the moment just makes him seem like a fair-weather hero. Sure, he'd like to see mutants and humans coexist peacefully, but it's not a deal-breaker; he'll just put that on the back burner and kill any flatscan motherf***ers who get in his way in the short-term. Maybe it's an uncharitable view of Cyclops, but it's the one I always wind up with when I read stuff with him from the past few years.

 

[runawayboulder]

Cyclops is a leader that looks 10-15 steps down the road at all times.

 

[Panthro]

The Phoenix is just magnifying Scott's emotions, isn't it? He was already moving into extremist territory with his increased militarism, disregard for human life, and abandonment of Xavier's dream. The Phoenix is just pushing him further in that direction so that now he's a crazy totalitarian dictator behind a thin veneer of altruism. Yeah, the Phoenix Five are helping the world, but cross them and Cyclops will hunt your ass down with extreme prejudice. Now he's lost 3/5ths of his fellow Phoenixes, so he's got desperation on top of that, which just pushes him more into extreme territory.

Captain America, on the other hand, doesn't really have the luxury of that excuse. He's just been a dick throughout this event.

Name a character who hasn't been a dick throughout this event.

 

[Spider-Nerd]

Cyclops is a leader that looks 10-15 steps down the road at all times.

He's the marvel prep-time king. Only Bruce is more paranoid.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Name a character who hasn't been a dick throughout this event.

Cap's way beyond just typical event-induced dickery, though. He's been a straight-up fascist since like #3 or 4 or whichever issue he decided he was going to imprison every mutant the Avengers defeated until that pesky Phoenix business was done.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Well he kinda did and he's acknowledged that. Maybe abandon isnt the right word, but he explained it perfectly here

This was actually a plot that I LOVED the idea of. I thought it had real legs to it but I doubt anything will come of it. It was in a side book, right? New Mutants?

But yeah, I liked the idea of Cyclops basically taking the fall for saving Mutant-kind and grooming someone younger, more idealistic, to take over the X-Men after him and lead them back. Sadly, they're sorta going the Wolverine direction, but that panel was refering to one of the New Mutants... specifically either Cannonball or Moonstar. I thought that was a great direction to take.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

But Cyclops himself was supposed to be that for Xavier.

 

[Havok83]

This was actually a plot that I LOVED the idea of. I thought it had real legs to it but I doubt anything will come of it. It was in a side book, right? New Mutants?

But yeah, I liked the idea of Cyclops basically taking the fall for saving Mutant-kind and grooming someone younger, more idealistic, to take over the X-Men after him and lead them back. Sadly, they're sorta going the Wolverine direction, but that panel was refering to one of the New Mutants... specifically either Cannonball or Moonstar. I thought that was a great direction to take.

Yeah it happened in New Mutants. It seemed to imply that he was grooming Dani to be his successor with him eventually naming her as leader of the group. With its cancellation, I expect she and the other characters to go back to limbo and not much of this plot explored at all

 

[Manic]

Well he kinda did and he's acknowledged that. Maybe abandon isnt the right word, but he explained it perfectly here

F those panels right up their surprisingly nonexistent gutters.

 

[Panthro]

Too bad Hercules wasn't there. He would have kicked the Phoenix in the groin and that would have been the end of the whole stupid story right there.

 

[Brainiac 8]

See, everyone points out that things are so dire for the mutants now and defend Cyclops' more militant stance, but I always have stuff like this in the back of my mind. Abandoning Xavier's dream because it's inconvenient at the moment just makes him seem like a fair-weather hero. Sure, he'd like to see mutants and humans coexist peacefully, but it's not a deal-breaker; he'll just put that on the back burner and kill any flatscan motherf***ers who get in his way in the short-term. Maybe it's an uncharitable view of Cyclops, but it's the one I always wind up with when I read stuff with him from the past few years.

To be fair, Cyclops didn't get so militaristic and crazy until after a major event wiped out most mutants and then a group of crazies attempted genocide on what was left.

Such as a bus full of children being blown up in front of his eyes.

I don't necessarily agree with his direction but it did make sense given the circumstances.

 

[The Epic Beyond]

Even if its Cyclops giving up Xavier's dream I'm okay with it. In his core he believes in the dream, but the real world gets in the way. Becoming Magneto2.0 and realizing it would give him something to struggle back to.

In my opinion Cyclops has always worked best as a flawed hero. It sticks with the characterization that's grown around him since they had the whole leaving Madelyn Prior and going back to jean grey fiasco even though he had a baby. He's a bit of a jerk but that's what give him potential in a heroic struggle. To fall down and then rebuild himself.

 

[Belvedere]

This was actually a plot that I LOVED the idea of. I thought it had real legs to it but I doubt anything will come of it. It was in a side book, right? New Mutants?

But yeah, I liked the idea of Cyclops basically taking the fall for saving Mutant-kind and grooming someone younger, more idealistic, to take over the X-Men after him and lead them back. Sadly, they're sorta going the Wolverine direction, but that panel was refering to one of the New Mutants... specifically either Cannonball or Moonstar. I thought that was a great direction to take.

Cannonball would have been so awesome.

It'd be cool to see some of the younger mutants that have been New Mutants or in the Academy in one shape or another really come to the forefront and take over the reins. Doubt that'll ever happen though.

 

[Spider-Nerd]

Variant cover to AvX 12 released.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=40920

 

[Havok83]

I bet Thor was the first one to fall

 

[Spider-Nerd]

I bet Thor was the first one to fall

He tripped over his hammer and that was the end of him.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Unconscious for a week

 

[Panthro]

I bet Thor was the first one to fall

He slipped on a banana peel.

 

[runawayboulder]

He was probably still laying there from the last beat-down.