Discussion in 'The Dark Knight Rises' started by Green Goblin, Jul 28, 2013.
Apologies in advance for this.
This is such a ridiculous argument and I laugh every time I read it. How does the fact that he was so afraid of killing Bruce in front of her that he waited till after she was gone prove that he was his own man? They both thought that the city was going to explode in a few minutes, why would he even believe that she would find out?
What makes you think it was fear? That wasn't fear in Bane's eyes of Talia, but love and respect. What kind of love is up to the viewer, but out respect for this woman he clearly loved in some form, he did not shoot Batman in front of her. But he still would shoot Batman once she left, as he makes much of his own decisions. It may have been her plan for the "slow knife," but nearly everything Bane did was his own meticulous planning. They didn't exactly have Skype chats once the city collapsed or probably for the several years leading up to the film.
This is such a weak argument that because he is partnered with a woman that he is weak. I will not even touch on the implications of that.
Perhaps. I just find Nolan's to be thought-provoking. Dixon is heavy-handed rightwing talk radio caricatures. Just very eye-rolling.
I would say Talia may be the leader of LOS, but Bane was running the show for years. HOw about he was the commander on the ground and she was the arm-chair general?
That would certainly explain why he makes his own decisions at the end.
I don't know what's worse. The idea that Bane was only a muscle to Talia the entire time or the idea that Talia's ******ed plan that made no sense whatsoever came was composed by Bane himself.
Poor guy can't win either way.
Option A isn't really an option. It's more like Option C...Bane took this extreme seed of an idea, and figured out the logistics of how to actually pull it off.
Being the commander of a small army (which Bane was on a day to day basis) is far more than "just muscle" no matter which way you slice it.
Bane was the director. Talia was more of an executive producer, so to speak.
Talia's plan was pretty straightforward:accomplishing her father's goal for Gotham at any cost. Even facing death at the hands of the US Army (Likely detonating the bomb in the process) or escaping before the bomb went off. Bane's the reason Talia was able to put her plan into motion. First, he saved her life in the Pit. Then, later, he got her out of Crane's clutches. Granted, you could call that part of her plan reckless. Being caught and taken to a courtroom with the honorable judge Crane presiding. If Bane thought she was a liability, he could've kept silent and let her attempt the ice.
Option C still hurts me on the inside a bit because it would mean Bane sat down with Talia, listened to what she wants to do and why she wants to do it (which, as I said, made no sense whatsoever in the film), and then said "Yeah, great idea! I'll come up with the best way to execute that."
Talia's plan was ******ed and made no sense. Both her motivations and reasons for doing what she did made no sense whatsoever.
Her motivation was "I hated my father until you killed him." That makes no sense whatsoever and based on her entire backstory, she has way more reasons to want revenge/be pissed on her father than on Batman himself (abandoning her and her mother, treating her closest friend (Bane) like a monster, excommunicating her closest friend from the LOS because he loved her, etc.).
Her reasons made even less sense. "I will fulfill my father's destiny". My theory is that she left with Bane when he was excommunicated instead of staying with the LOS, since she clearly didn't know her father or what the LOS stood for. She's clearly not aware of the fact that the LOS' job is to destroy corrupt cities. At this point, Gotham was no longer a corrupt city so there was no valid reason as to why the LOS would target it. You can't argue that it only appeared as clean due to the Dent coverup because Bane/Talia only found out about the coverup once they got to Gotham....after they started to put their plan in effect. The fact that she refers to destroying Gotham as her "father's destiny" and the fact that she was going to destroy herself with it only further shows how clueless she is about the LOS. Destroying Gotham was not Ras' "destiny". He was not going to destroy himself with it. Gotham was just the next city on his list. Once he destroyed it, he would have moved on to the next corrupt city.
Also, how were Bane and Talia going to prove to Bruce that Gotham is still "beyond saving" and that "underneath" it's still just as corrupt as it was before? By forcing out the worst in people? No. By revealing that Gotham is only clean now due to a dirty lie? No (they weren't aware of Harvey's actions until they came to Gotham plus they were already aware Bruce knew that). So how? By taking the city hostage, trapping all of the cops, breaking all of Blackgate's prisoners and unleashing all of them on the streets. That's how they "proved" that Gotham can be just as corrupt as before and to then use that as an excuse to blow it up.
So to recap, her motivation makes no sense, her logical way of thinking makes no sense, and she is completely clueless about her father's philosophy as well as for what the LOS stood for. On top of that, she is very cocky and a "female dog" especially after the reveal, which makes you have a strong passionate hatred for her (not a flaw with the film since there's nothing wrong with including those types of characters in your story, but just pointing that out).
Also note that the LOS never appears in the film, only Talia and Bane claiming that they are the LOS. One can make the case that Talia is a complete disgrace to the LOS and that the real LOS was out there during the events of TDKR and was facepalming at what Talia was doing (seriously).
As for Bane saving Talia from Crane, I got the impression Bane/his mercenaries appointed Crane to be the judge thus they would stop Crane from killing Talia.
I can see where Talia was coming from. She hated Ra's for throwing Bane out of the League. Then he's gone, and she can't reconcile with him. Before Bane found Gordon's confession, he had been recruiting Gothamites that were put out of work. Talia had been in Wayne Enterprises for an unspecified number of years, and would have seen corporate greed as the source of job losses in Gotham. That would allow her to line her goals up with the League's purpose. I believe that Talia fixated on Gotham because it was the city where her father was killed. So completing that mission for him would make sense, in terms of honoring him.
The wall that you and others who have problems with Bane's motivation in this film seem to run into seems to be the fact that Bane was a radicalized terrorist himself too whose only semblance of family in the world was the LoS before he got the axe.
That's me being confrontational or accusatory, just something I've noticed. It's one of the side effects of them leaving aspects of Bane/Talia's relationship ambiguous in the film. There are a lot of interpretations out there, like Mr. Wooden Alligator's up there which I really like actually, despite never thinking of it in exactly those terms before.
Personally, based on Bane's actions in the film, I think he was 100% on board with giving "western civilization" a huge kick in the ass as a means of restoring balance to the world. And I think he was also 100% on board with punishing the rich boy/favored son who was offered everything by Ra's that he felt he was the proper heir to and then spat on. Everything about what they were doing seemed to align with his own ideals. Particularly knocking the wealthy down a notch. Power is something that should be fought for and earned with blood and sweat in Bane's mind, not bought. And like Alligator said, Talia was well-aquainted with corporate greed and its effects.
I just see their partnership as a synergistic aligning of the stars. A perfect storm of evil if you will. All the elements were in play. Revenge, jihad (or whatever the LoS calls it), a chance at "redemption" for both of them, deep personal ties, and a marriage of resources with a very specific skill set.
I dunno, it's just one of those things with TDKR. To some people it's ******ed and makes no sense, but I love the Bane/Talia combo and think it brought so much pathos to the film and trilogy. I just really wish people would look more at the bigger picture of what the LoS is really about and not get caught up in the semantics of whether they would target a city without organized crime. Of course they would. There are other ways to define corruption besides organized crime (as defined by the law). The idea that the LoS would restrict their criteria to the parameters of US law is baffling to me. They have their own set of ideals about justice. A society can be decadent without being overrun with crime. In my eyes the LoS is more about rebooting societies that have gone off the rails in any number of ways, and where there is an unjust gap between those who are benefitting from it and those who are suffering under it. And if it means killing everyone in order to create change, then so be it. And I also feel they are more anti-West and global in their ideals than they are anti-Gotham, it's just that Gotham is the world's "greatest city", therefore it makes for the most symbolic target, much like the World Trade Center/NYC.
I had no real problem with Bane. I did not mind the twist even if everyone knew who she was.
My problem was the way they killed Bane. Incredibly anti-climatic for a foe who is supposivly Batman's most formidable foe.
Technically, Batman did defeat Bane before Catwoman blasted him. If it helps, just think: Joker got hit in the face with Batman's gauntlets, Crane got tasered, and Two-Face got tackled to his death. Bane took a canon.
Forcing out the worst in people, with the whole world watching, would be in line with League philosophy. The people that rallied to Bane's side weren't exclusively Blackgate inmates, either. Recall that he'd been taking in at-risk orphans and people who couldn't find work in Gotham. So, by giving these disenfranchised Gothamites the option to strike back against the corruption in their bureacracy, Bane and Talia managed to show the world the darker side of Gotham: seething anger in the masses created by a system rife with rot. In essence, this is an upgrade on what Ra's intended to do with Crane's toxin (as far as a city tearing itself apart goes). Bane outright states "I am the League of Shadows," which is self-explanatory. Bane going with option C isn't that farfetched when you consider how he reacted when Bruce reminded him that he was "excommunicated from a gang of psychopaths."
I won't argue about Talia's ignorance to her father's philosophy, though.
Same time next week, gents?
TDKR was the worst but it was still really good.
BB is my pick though.
Spiritually and psychologically, Bruce/Batman defeated Bane when he successfully climbed out of the pit. Batman had quite comprehensively defeated Bane by the time Catwoman blasted him. It's the reason Bane resorted to shooting Batman in the face.
In a way, I liked how Bane died. It's a very humiliating finish to someone with an ego as huge as his. And I agree that Bruce already defeated him the moment he climbed out of the pit. Bane was already toast until Talia interfered anyway.
People still can't figure Bane and Talia's plan. Wow.
This criminal deserved a better death than that.
No he didn't deserve anything. He deserved to have his ego crushed. Batman defeated him with the mask and punching the **** out of his face. Escaping the pit meant he already won IMO. But Talia came in and patched things up for Bane, even though he was defeated.
Catwoman taking out Bane was awesome. He died with a canon to the chest. It's part bad-ass, and then part humiliating because it was quick and done by Catwoman. Which fits perfectly because Bane is ALL ego. It was crushed in that moment. Like kvz5 said.
I don't mind Bane's death, but the one-liner from Catwoman kind of ruins it. I get she had to shoot Bane, but this being a Batman movie where he even tells her "No guns no killing" and then she kind of just dismisses it with humor was odd.
But honestly, Bane still would have defeated Batman if Talia never revealed herself. Batman would have been standing over Bane screaming gibberish about a trigger that Bane didn't have until they were all toast. Reminded me about Joker and the "nothing to do with all your strength" scene in a way. Batman would have won the battle against Bane, but Bane/Talia would have won the war when the bomb went off.
I think Bane's demise was due from Talia's ego actually, where she wanted Bruce to know exactly who she was and why she was taking such pleasure in doing what she was doing. She could have just let the secret die with her along with everyone else in Gotham.
But of course, no one wanted the bomb to go off and Batman to fail.
Edit----Actually, I guess Batman, once knowing Bane didn't have the trigger and wouldn't give it up, could have just got in The Bat and raced off to take the bomb out anyways if Talia doesn't push the button sooner.
I loved the one-liner. It's a bit of humor added in + it makes it more humiliating for Bane. I don't know why people wanted Bane to die in the most bad-ass way just because he himself is a bad-ass. Karma is a *****, and his ego was finally put to rest in one moment.
Catwoman's humor is an important part of her. Im glad lines like that were thrown in because everything is so serious. Which I love, but you need balance. Catwoman dismissing Batman's rules is who she is. Nothing odd about that.
I know the humor is a part of the character, I personally think the execution of the scene is odd. Bane is blown away quickly off screen just to get him out of the way after being built up as something more. I think he deserved a better death. Or,
personally, I would have liked it if she came in and crashed into Bane or something to knock him out. Then he is in custody on the steps of City Hall, thinking to himself that he still won because the bomb is going to go off and their plan will work. After the bomb goes off outside the city, that is where Bane's ego is checked. He would realize that the Batman had won. To see that realization slowly creep in on his face would have been perfect.
Sometimes I think the best way to end TDKR would have been the bomb exploding. Batman wasted so many time by making the fire signal, kissing Catwoman and talking to Gordon - and then - BOOM! Gotham is ashes.
Now that would have been a surprising end to the trilogy. t: