BvS Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

[shauner111]

I missed the comics where Batman machine gunned his enemies from the skies, or indeed those where he was trained as a ninja by Ra's al Ghul. I forget those where Lucius Fox was Batman's brain.

In order to save Gotham from a bomb? He was still trained by Ducard was he not? Even with help from Fox, he has still had more brains than Affleck. And he didn't even have 20 years under his bat belt. Bale was selfless, heroic, intense, dynamic and he had a code. He never set out to murder someone. He retired for 8 years because of a law, but in his time off he tried helping the city as Bruce Wayne. For me that made him more like the Batman I know than Miller's even, who just drank and let things go to hell in Gotham while he went on with his life. And I'm a fan of Millers DKR, so I'm not just being a "hater" for the sake of it.

I like how you chose 3 little examples to make your point while ignoring everything else they put into his CHARACTER. A high-tech batcave, a cooler suit and some dope fight choreography doesn't automatically make him better or more accurate.

 

[TheBat812]

Apart from the aesthetic look, this Batman was so far from the comic book Batman. From being ineffectual as a detective, to his murderous nature, to his idiotic irrationality concerning Superman.

Agree to disagree on this. How was he ineffective as a detective when he found everything he wanted to?

To me, the biggest issue fans are having is they're not thinking of Bruce as a human being. He's beyond a human to them, he's so perfect he would never break his codes or be distracted, etc.

The entire premise of this film is that by seeing Superman and the potential power, he's essentially broken as a person and all the values he once held seem meaningless to him. To me this is a fascinating take, never been done before. But he's still very much the character of Bruce/batman, just presented with a situation and in a context he hasn't really faced before. He reacts exactly you'd expect a man who's world was just shattered to do - with obsession and tunnel vision.

 

[The Joker]

Agree to disagree on this. How was he ineffective as a detective when he found everything he wanted to?

What he wanted to find was not what he should have been looking for. That's what makes him such a lousy detective. The most rudimentary of investigation could have avoided the whole so called feud he had with Superman, and revealed what Luthor was up to, too.

To me, the biggest issue fans are having is they're not thinking of Bruce as a human being. He's beyond a human to them, he's so perfect he would never break his codes or be distracted, etc.

Don't presume to speak on how other fans view Bruce. Stick to speaking for yourself. Bruce is far from perfect, but one of his flaws is not turning into an irrational idiot murderer just because he's feeling jaded in his crime fighting career, or that he lost Robin.

The entire premise of this film is that by seeing Superman and the potential power, he's essentially broken as a person and all the values he once held seem meaningless to him. To me this is a fascinating take, never been done before.

It's never been done before because it's a bad out of character take on him. We know that's the excuse the movie gives, this is a broken version of Bruce. That doesn't make this awful characterization any better or more acceptable.

But he's still very much the character of Bruce/batman, just presented with a situation and in a context he hasn't really faced before. He reacts exactly you'd expect a man who's world was just shattered to do - with obsession and tunnel vision.

He's totally out of character of Bruce and Batman. Batman would never react the way he did in this movie. We know this because we've seen Batman feel jaded in his career. We've seen him lose Robin. We've seen him face threats to the whole world. This is all territory the comics have covered.

Batfleck is the antithesis of who Batman is.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

You know, it's weird.

For years, the ''supposed'' killing of Keaton's Batman and his general detatchment to the world around him never, ever bugged me. In fact, it's still one of my all time favourite protrayals of the character.

But Bat-Fleck?

He's just so unlikeable in this movie. You could look past the killing stuff and detatchment from the world so the sake of narrative/character progression in later movies, but he's still so damn unlikeable. Grunting and huffing his way through the picture, ending up with a weird faux sense of responsibility towards his ''friend'' at the climax of the movie.

Don't tell this version has compassion either because he hugged a little girl at the start of the film.

Affleck was great, the suit was great... everything else, I'm liking less and less as time goes on.

 

[TheBat812]

What he wanted to find was not what he should have been looking for. That's what makes him such a lousy detective. The most rudimentary of investigation could have avoided the whole so called feud he had with Superman, and revealed what Luthor was up to, too.



Don't presume to speak on how other fans view Bruce. Stick to speaking for yourself. Bruce is far from perfect, but one of his flaws is not turning into an irrational idiot murderer just because he's feeling jaded in his crime fighting career, or that he lost Robin.



It's never been done before because it's a bad out of character take on him. We know that's the excuse the movie gives, this is a broken version of Bruce. That doesn't make this awful characterization any better or more acceptable.



He's totally out of character of Bruce and Batman. Batman would never react the way he did in this movie. We know this because we've seen Batman feel jaded in his career. We've seen him lose Robin. We've seen him face threats to the whole world. This is all territory the comics have covered.

Batfleck is the antithesis of who Batman is.

He's the antithesis of YOUR Batman. I would absolutely disagree that he doesn't act as Bruce/Batman. in fact, this is more of the Batman that I personally like than others. Not because he kills, but because even he is capable of being emotional to the point of tunnel vision. It's incredibly rare, but it's fascinating that in this story it is the arrival of an incredulously powerful alien that pushes him into that point.

Also, don't get so offended about the perfect thing - your absolute certainty that Bruce would never do whatever is exactly what I'm talking about. No person is absolute in their convictions - there will always be a tipping point. But where does it exist? Most times we don't push our heroes to that point because it would betray our ideal view of them. I'm way more fascinated by somebody we think of as infallible finally finding that point that pushes them over the edge. That is a way more interesting take to me, personally.

I respect your opinion to who Batman is to you, but it just seems silly to think there is only ONE pure version of Batman. Just like some people hate Batman in the Killing Joke, others hate Year One, others hate TDKReturns, etc. that just means that interpretation doesn't gel with their personal views. It doesn't make them less valid or less interesting.

 

[TheBat812]

You know, it's weird.

For years, the ''supposed'' killing of Keaton's Batman and his general detatchment to the world around him never, ever bugged me. In fact, it's still one of my all time favourite protrayals of the character.

But Bat-Fleck?

He's just so unlikeable in this movie. You could look past the killing stuff and detatchment from the world so the sake of narrative/character progression in later movies, but he's still so damn unlikeable. Grunting and huffing his way through the picture, ending up with a weird faux sense of responsibility towards his ''friend'' at the climax of the movie.

Don't tell this version has compassion either because he hugged a little girl at the start of the film.

Affleck was great, the suit was great... everything else, I'm liking less and less as time goes on.

Ya, he's kind of a villain/anti-hero in this film. Pretty much like TDKR. Personally, I found his plight compelling. He wasn't unlikable at all, I found him obsessive and unhappy. Some people like that, others don't. I truly believe if people had no concept of Batman, and this was the first time they were introduced, they'd find it to be a much more compelling story, but are very stuck on their own preconceptions of who he should be. This is just a well-known part of fandom.

 

[The Joker]

He's the antithesis of YOUR Batman. I would absolutely disagree that he doesn't act as Bruce/Batman. in fact, this is more of the Batman that I personally like than others. Not because he kills, but because even he is capable of being emotional to the point of tunnel vision. It's incredibly rare, but it's fascinating that in this story it is the arrival of an incredulously powerful alien that pushes him into that point.

Not my Batman, just Batman. That's why your tunnel vision accusation has no validity or credibility. We can make this assertion based on the 75+ years of what we know of the character. Yeah Batman can get emotional, and it can lead to him acting irrational, but not like this. Never like this. We know this for a fact because we've seen him in all the same types of situations as Batfleck was in.

It's not fascinating. It's not powerful. It's just a showcase of turning a good character into an irrational immoral idiot.

Also, don't get so offended about the perfect thing - your absolute certainty that Bruce would never do whatever is exactly what I'm talking about. No person is absolute in their convictions - there will always be a tipping point. But where does it exist? Most times we don't push our heroes to that point because it would betray our ideal view of them. I'm way more fascinated by somebody we think of as infallible finally finding that point that pushes them over the edge. That is a way more interesting take to me, personally.

You're talking what ifs there. That's fiction territory. Baseless conjecture. You can try and make any bastardization sound credible by saying who knows what would happen with said character in this or that situation.

We've seen Batman pushed to his limits. Many times. We've seen him reach the pits of depression and despair about his crime fighting crusade. We've seen him lose Robin. We've seen it all. That's why we have grounds to say what Batfleck did is the antithesis of Batman.

You can theorize all you like in your baseless hypotheticals. I'm sticking on what we know about the character.

 

[FunkMiller]

He's the antithesis of YOUR Batman. I would absolutely disagree that he doesn't act as Bruce/Batman. in fact, this is more of the Batman that I personally like than others. Not because he kills, but because even he is capable of being emotional to the point of tunnel vision. It's incredibly rare, but it's fascinating that in this story it is the arrival of an incredulously powerful alien that pushes him into that point.

Also, don't get so offended about the perfect thing - your absolute certainty that Bruce would never do whatever is exactly what I'm talking about. No person is absolute in their convictions - there will always be a tipping point. But where does it exist? Most times we don't push our heroes to that point because it would betray our ideal view of them. I'm way more fascinated by somebody we think of as infallible finally finding that point that pushes them over the edge. That is a way more interesting take to me, personally.

I respect your opinion to who Batman is to you, but it just seems silly to think there is only ONE pure version of Batman. Just like some people hate Batman in the Killing Joke, others hate Year One, others hate TDKReturns, etc. that just means that interpretation doesn't gel with their personal views. It doesn't make them less valid or less interesting.

This is not meant as any kind of insult, just a genuine enquiry that I'm hoping you'll be happy to answer honestly - do you read Batman comics? And if so, for how long? I ask because from these paragraphs I'd deduce that you don't have much of an attachment to the 'real' Batman (by real I mean comic book classic Batman). Again, not meant as an insult. Perfectly okay to be more of a casual fan, if that is indeed the case.

 

[TheBat812]

Not my Batman, just Batman. That's why your tunnel vision accusation has no validity or credibility. We can make this assertion based on the 75+ years of what we know of the character. Yeah Batman can get emotional, and it can lead to him acting irrational, but not like this. Never like this. We know this for a fact because we've seen him in all the same types of situations as Batfleck was in.



You're talking what ifs there. That's fiction territory. Baseless conjecture. You can try and make any bastardization sound credible by saying who knows what would happen with said character in this or that situation.

We've seen Batman pushed to his limits. Many times. We've seen him reach the pits of depression and despair about his crime fighting crusade. We've seen him lose Robin. We've seen it all. That's why we have grounds to say what Batfleck did is the antithesis of Batman.

You can theorize all you like in your baseless hypotheticals. I'm sticking on what we know about the character.

He's a fictional character. It was perfectly acceptable/understandable to me and many many Batman lifelong fans. How can you possibly feel comfortable acting as some sort of grand authority? I really hate this about fans, lol.

 

[TheBat812]

This is not meant as any kind of insult, just a genuine enquiry that I'm hoping you'll be happy to answer honestly - do you read Batman comics? And if so, for how long? I ask because from these paragraphs I'd deduce that you don't have much of an attachment to the 'real' Batman (by real I mean comic book classic Batman). Again, not meant as an insult. Perfectly okay to be more of a casual fan, if that is indeed the case.

Ya, I don't read many of the comics. I grew up watching the Batman animated series, the 60s show and the Burton films (and subsequent films).

I love the character, but I'm much looser with my definition of who he is - how he reacts to things is contingent on the story being told. People have their own interpretations of characters and how they'd react and that's totally okay. I wasn't at all a fan of batman and Robin's Batman. Why the **** did he pull out a credit card at some point? Not my Batman. But to some people maybe they like that. Who am I to act like I am the ultimate authority on anything? For me, BvS absolutely worked and was a Bruce that I really believed and enjoyed his experience in the film.

 

[The Joker]

He's a fictional character.

So?

It was perfectly acceptable/understandable to me and many many Batman lifelong fans.

Again so what?

How can you possibly feel comfortable acting as some sort of grand authority? I really hate this about fans, lol.

I'm not acting as an authority, I'm stating facts. Look them up if you doubt me. Everything I have said in regard to Batman's character is true. It's supported by 75+ years of character material. You are talking baseless hypotheticals. I hate when fans do that. It's pointless.

 

[regwec]

That's fiction territory.

Yes, let us not stray from the cold, hard reality of Batman.

 

[TheBat812]

So?



Again so what?



I'm not acting as an authority, I'm stating facts. Look them up if you doubt me. Everything I have said in regard to Batman's character is true. It's supported by 75+ years of character material. You are talking baseless hypotheticals. I hate when fans do that. It's pointless.

Stating facts? About the limitless possibilities of stories and reactions of a fictional character? That's a joke right?

Just because it hasn't happened before does not mean it isn't a valid idea to try or enjoy. Once again, just because you didn't enjoy it doesn't mean somehow the many many people who love Batman and also loved this film and his depiction here are somehow wrong. It just means we disagree. This isn't some sort of mathematical equation, it is a depiction of a fictional character.

 

[The Joker]

Affleck was great, the suit was great... everything else, I'm liking less and less as time goes on.

I agree. Aesthetically he looked good, and Affleck's quality of acting was solid, but everything else fell flat and gets worse with time. I think time in general is going to be very unkind to this movie. Says a lot considering the poor way it's viewed by the consensus now as it is.

 

[hafizbat]

When the Flash time travels to tell you that you are right about Superman you don't have to worry about being wrong

Right, because a random vision of a random dude he's never seen before is much more trustworthy than the guy who saved the world from destruction a couple months ago

 

[The Joker]

Stating facts? About the limitless possibilities of stories and reactions of a fictional character? That's a joke right?

I'm not talking about the limitless possibilities of a fictional character. Any character can be written any which way at the whims of a writer. Do you think Galactus being a cloud in the F4 movies was a great direction to take? Or Bane being a dumb mute henchman to Ivy in B&R? That doesn't make it a valid route for said character when it flies in the face of everything they are.

Let me give you an example; stalwart moral character Leslie Thompkins did something totally out of character; she killed Spoiler. Fans went nuts at this, just like they do about killer Batman, because it was an out of character act.

So DC retconned it. Nothing to do with limitless possibilities, it was about bad character writing. Just like here.

Just because it hasn't happened before does not mean it isn't a valid idea to try or enjoy. Once again, just because you didn't enjoy it doesn't mean somehow the many many people who love Batman and also loved this film and his depiction here are somehow wrong. It just means we disagree. This isn't some sort of mathematical equation, it is a depiction of a fictional character.

Again missing the point. It's got nothing to do with not having been done before, it's about doing something that is a bastardization of a character.

I don't care if you enjoyed it. This has nothing to do with enjoyment. As if bad movies and bad characterizations have not been enjoyed before.

 

[FunkMiller]

Ya, I don't read many of the comics. I grew up watching the Batman animated series, the 60s show and the Burton films (and subsequent films).

I love the character, but I'm much looser with my definition of who he is - how he reacts to things is contingent on the story being told. People have their own interpretations of characters and how they'd react and that's totally okay. I wasn't at all a fan of batman and Robin's Batman. Why the **** did he pull out a credit card at some point? Not my Batman. But to some people maybe they like that. Who am I to act like I am the ultimate authority on anything? For me, BvS absolutely worked and was a Bruce that I really believed and enjoyed his experience in the film.

Thanks for the honest answer. I'd be interested to compare how long term readers of the comic feel about the movie versus those who only tend to come across Batman through other media. I'd be willing to bet that the comic readers are more anti Batfleck and Snyder, for more or less the reasons you've stated.

 

[TheBat812]

I'm not talking about the limitless possibilities of a fictional character. Any character can be written any which way at the whims of a writer. That doesn't make it a valid route for said character when it flies in the face of everything they are.

Let me give you an example; stalwart moral character Leslie Thompkins did something totally out of character; she killed Spoiler. Fans went nuts at this, just like they do about killer Batman, because it was an out of character act.

So DC retconned it. Nothing to do with limitless possibilities, it was about bad character writing. Just like here.



Again missing the point. It's got nothing to do with not having been done before, it's about doing something that is a bastardization of a character.

I don't care if you enjoyed it. This has nothing to do with enjoyment. As if bad movies and bad characterizations have not been enjoyed before.

I'll just agree to disagree.

 

[batfreakforever]

He's the antithesis of YOUR Batman. I would absolutely disagree that he doesn't act as Bruce/Batman. in fact, this is more of the Batman that I personally like than others. Not because he kills, but because even he is capable of being emotional to the point of tunnel vision. It's incredibly rare, but it's fascinating that in this story it is the arrival of an incredulously powerful alien that pushes him into that point.

Also, don't get so offended about the perfect thing - your absolute certainty that Bruce would never do whatever is exactly what I'm talking about. No person is absolute in their convictions - there will always be a tipping point. But where does it exist? Most times we don't push our heroes to that point because it would betray our ideal view of them. I'm way more fascinated by somebody we think of as infallible finally finding that point that pushes them over the edge. That is a way more interesting take to me, personally.

I respect your opinion to who Batman is to you, but it just seems silly to think there is only ONE pure version of Batman. Just like some people hate Batman in the Killing Joke, others hate Year One, others hate TDKReturns, etc. that just means that interpretation doesn't gel with their personal views. It doesn't make them less valid or less interesting.

100% agree with your post. They aren't happy because it's not their version of Batman. We need to push our heroes in ways that hasn't been done before because if they have been done like this and that way then why even try anyway as a filmmaker/storyteller. Snyder and Affleck were bold and their Batman wasn't irrational he was cold and calculating. He want to wipe Superman off the face of the planet because of what happened with the Black Zero event. Just because he saves people don't mean he hasn't the power to wipe the human race out. A humans 1% power is smaller than say an Alien with godlike powers. Bruce was right to want to fear for our safety from a Superpowered being.

 

[The Joker]

Thanks for the honest answer. I'd be interested to compare how long term readers of the comic feel about the movie versus those who only tend to come across Batman through other media. I'd be willing to bet that the comic readers are more anti Batfleck and Snyder, for more or less the reasons you've stated.

If history has taught us anything, fans always hate it;

 

[Knight-Tale]

Right, because a random vision of a random dude he's never seen before is much more trustworthy than the guy who saved the world from destruction a couple months ago

Its not a vision that actually happened and since the Flash is from the Future anything he says about Superman overrides whatever good deeds Clark has done.
You already see in the film how easy he is to compromise and how quickly he can be pushed to kill.

 

[TheBat812]

Thanks for the honest answer. I'd be interested to compare how long term readers of the comic feel about the movie versus those who only tend to come across Batman through other media. I'd be willing to bet that the comic readers are more anti Batfleck and Snyder, for more or less the reasons you've stated.

Ya, I'd love to see that data. I've seen it on both sides. Long time comic readers who loved the interpretation, non-readers who love it, long time readers who hate it, non-readers who hate it. So it goes, haha. Batman is tough, because he's such a huge part of society, so everybody has at least a small inkling of who the character is. I guess I'll just go back to enjoying my fake version of batman in BvS. What a shame, lol.

What's your thoughts/history on it m1ll3r? Haven't caught your views on the Batman presented in the film on the forum, probably from sheer volume of posts haha.

 

[Snow Queen]

Its not a vision that actually happened and since the Flash is from the Future anything he says about Superman overrides whatever good deeds Clark has done.
You already see in the film how easy he is to compromise and how quickly he can be pushed to kill.

So does Flash have dream travel powers now?

 

[FunkMiller]

Ya, I'd love to see that data. I've seen it on both sides. Long time comic readers who loved the interpretation, non-readers who love it, long time readers who hate it, non-readers who hate it. So it goes, haha. Batman is tough, because he's such a huge part of society, so everybody has at least a small inkling of who the character is. I guess I'll just go back to enjoying my fake version of batman in BvS. What a shame, lol.

What's your thoughts/history on it m1ll3r? Haven't caught your views on the Batman presented in the film on the forum, probably from sheer volume of posts haha.

Firmly in the Batman should never kill camp. A lot of the other issues I'm not too bothered about. This was a big, explosive, jam packed movie that had a lot of story problems. Batman's characterisation was bound to be sacrificed for the need to propel a wider narrative, and set up the JL.

Affleck was very good, considering what he was given, but I fundamentally believe Zack Snyder's interpretation of Batman steers him too far away from his roots. I'm also supremely annoyed that for two years he told us repeatedly he'd be putting the most comics faithful Batman on screen ever - and then comprehensively didn't do it.

But, I totally accept and understand that for others like yourself, it's an enjoyable iteration, even if I can't understand why

 

[TheBat812]

Firmly in the Batman should never kill camp. A lot of the other issues I'm not too bothered about. This was a big, explosive, jam packed movie that had a lot of story problems. Batman's characterisation was bound to be sacrificed for the need to propel a wider narrative, and set up the JL.

Affleck was very good, considering what he was given, but I fundamentally believe Zack Snyder's interpretation of Batman steers him too far away from his roots. I'm also supremely annoyed that for two years he told us repeatedly he'd be putting the most comics faithful Batman on screen ever - and then comprehensively didn't do it.

But, I totally accept and understand that for others like yourself, it's an enjoyable iteration, even if I can't understand why

Ya, that's totally fair. I think for Snyder, he put together the Batman that HE saw from the comics he likes. But I understand why many disagree with his interpretation.

I think to speak from black and white of what Batman would or wouldn't do based on the vast history of the comics is dangerous, because then you run into things like this:

I'm sure a devout comic fan might get pick and choosy about what counts as comic-accurate, but that starts to illustrate the problem I'm saying - that in itself becomes part of interpretation - this image IS Batman from the comics. But he's probably not most people's Batman. I'm sure much of the 60s Batman also isn't most people's Batman, but is it fair to say it's also NOT Batman?

That's why I'm way for qualifying it more as an interpretation of Batman moreso than some all-compassing version of Batman - over the course of 70+ years of history, many different versions have existed, none more valid than others - some more preferable to individuals or even the general fanbase than others, but not necessarily more valid.


But thanks for the respectful and open response, that's a way more fun way to have great and differing convos about a character we clearly all love