Bryan Singer's X-Men 3

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Exactly. It's the "true fans" like X-Maniac and Nell who try to force people to agree with them and to like the film, which in essence, would be lying to themselves right then and there.

But you said it in a way that is plainer and very simple. Thank you.

Show me once where I insulted anyone, or tried to force them to think my way. Quote me one instance of that. You do that, and I will fully admit to you that I was wrong, with my sincerest of apologies.

This is a place for debate. My getting "defensive", and arguing my viewpoint, is no different than you coming on here and arguing your viewpoint.

The difference is, I am an English major. I have taken a couple debate and communication classes. And naturally, I am a bit more opinionated than your average person. So when I debate, and express my opinion, I express it a bit more passionately than many people do. They see it as "*****ing", or getting "defensive". I see it as rather a person who is very opinionated, has a strong mind and sense of my own opinion, and can express it rather well.

For the umpteenth time, I really don't care if you don't like the movie. I have no intentions of changing your opinion. I think it sucks that you don't like it, because we're all X-Men fans here, and we all want to like the movie. The fact that you don't like the movie shows that you didn't get the X-Men movie series that you wanted. You didn't get one that as a fan, pleases you. I did. I feel I am a happier X-Men fan for it, because I got 3 amazing movies. You did not. It is not a matter of who'se opinion is "better".

But at the same time, we are all comic book fans here. Well, most of us. I know many people here became fans off the movie. And that's okay. Personally, I became a fan off the cartoons, and got into the comics later. But in the end, generally speaking, we're all comic book fans. The fact that we enjoy these movies, and this genre, shows that we are all sci-fi & fantasy fans.

So, as comic book fans, as sci-fi fans, as fantasy fans, how exactly is it that we're *****ing about things such as Magneto moving the Golden Gate Bridge and whether or not it supports itself, or is long enough? How exactly is it that we're *****ing about Magneto repelling himself from the Earth's core, or whatever it is he's doing it from? Why are we arguing about **** like that?!

We are fans of movies that involve Cerebro (that allows a telepath to locate any human being across the globe, as well as kill them if he "concentrates harder"), the Danger Room (a holographic simulation training room), physical mutations that allow for fantastic special powers, a cloaking jet, a made up element on the periodic table called Adamantium... we are fans of comics that consist of alien galaxies and intergalactic wars, and cosmic entities that possess our beloved characters, and large robots that track and hunt down mutants for extermination. and alternate dimensions and timelines...

We can accept all of that stuff in our comic books and movies, but we can't accept a bridge supporting itself between 2 land masses?

Hold on... what?!

Many people are complaining about Magneto's plan, about how he could of just dropped the bridge on Alcatraz to kill the kid;

I offered up an explanation that just like Pearl Harbor, 9/11, Okalahoma City, and many other devastating attacks like that, people survive. It would be possible that Magneto's specific target, of a little kid, could survive that. To make sure that the person who Magneto didn't want to survive didn't, Magneto raided the island, and sent in a cold blooded killer in Juggernaut to do the job.

"Why didn't he just send in Callisto?!"

Callisto wasn't shown to be a cold blooded killer. Juggernaut was.

Magneto: "Go inside and get the boy. And kill him."
Juggernaut: "With pleasure."

You want somebody who's going to have no problems getting the job done.

"Why didn't so and so do this, or do that, or do the other thing."

Just because a person can do it, doesn't mean they always do it. When Storm blasted Nightcrawler down from the church rafters, why didn't Nightcrawler teleport as he was falling, before Jean had a lock on him? Instead of plummelling down to the floor below, where the people who were coming to get him (who he didn't know were friendly at the time) could get to him?

Because... sometimes you just don't do ****. Just because you can, doesn't mean that it's just going to happen.

You're arguing about the methods of storytelling by this point. And not questionable methods that this film took to tell it's story; but just the basics of storytelling.

Magneto didn't immediatley tell Arclight to destroy the cure weapons because a sense of conflict had to be shown. In the story, Magneto was caught off guard, and then had to deal with the cure darts being launched towards his location. He had a couple other things to worry about, and when the time was oppourtune, he gave the order.

"Why did Magneto waste his soldiers that way?"

It's a war. Sacrifice was expected. You don't go into war and expect to not make sacrifice. Generals send in their troops to get the job done. This is exactly what Magneto did.

These are absurd points that are being argued here. You're not actually arguing the quality of the movie. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing. You are *****ing about the movie for the sake of *****ing about the movie. Because you don't like the movie, and you feel you have a point to prove.

And when somebody like myself, Guard, or X-Maniac comes along and offers up reasons as to why certain things worked, instead of just accepting that it worked for us, you constantly hound and ***** and moan and groan to try to prove us wrong, about how what we thought could absolutley not be true in any way what so ever.

Despite the fact that it is what was actually shown to you in the movie.

That's why this arguing is ridiculous.

***** and moan and groan all you want about how this film sucked, and there wasn't enough character, or what have you.

People I talk to that dislike the movie think your reasoning is absurd. And they agree with you that the movie was subpar!

And I know people, of the general audience, who do not think this is a "summer popcorn flick" in the least, and that this movie (as well as the other 2) is a very well made, deep, and powerful movie.

Talk about how X2 brought you to tears. My mom actually breaks down everytime she sees Xavier and Jean die in X-Men: The Last Stand. She also breaks down when Jean dies in X2. Many moments of X-Men: The Last Stand hit me just as powerfully as the powerful moments of X2 did.

And X-Men: The Last Stand brings the X-Men to life in ways Singer never did.

Those are the reasons why I love X-Men: The Last Stand. Those are the reasons why I may even call it the best. Yes, Singer's focus was moreso on character than Ratner's was. But Ratner's was not void of character in the least bit, and has some of the better character moments in the trilogy. It has the best action, hands down. The character that Ratner had was just as good as the character that Singer had. Singer simply had more of it.

Even then, Singer's character development is a bit widely exaggerated on here. X-Men and X2 weren't "character" pieces in the least. They were summer, action blockbuster comic book flicks. They were just given a sense of depth and seriousness that a generic comic book flick lacks.

Don't agree with me? Fine. The movie didn't work for you. And that's okay.

But don't come around here talking about how a bridge supported itself, or Magneto's questionable objective, when we're all comic book fans here, and comic books aren't exactly the timeless classics of world literature, and comic book movies aren't exactly the timeless cinematic classics that will be revered the world over as essential film making...

 

[BMM]

Again, talking is cheap. Singer can say whatever he wants, he may have planned a lot of stuff, but what we know for sure is what we got, and based on that, I can't believe Singer would have put either sentinels, Beast, Angel, Gambit or a better Cyclops in X3

While talk may be cheap, paying for script drafts, provisions, character designs, 3D development, etc. isn't. You're contention was that you didn't believe the previous creative team would ever put an army of sentinels in an X-Men movie. In which case, they already did. They were simply cut due to outside factors. Whether or not they were in the final product doesn't remove the fact that they were supposed to be there. I have no doubt, that if allowed the sentinels would have been in an X-Men movie. Likewise, I have no doubt, that if allowed Kinberg and Penn would have had more in store for Famke Janssen than simply standing around for the majority of the third act of The Last Stand.

Based on the inclusion of the things we did get that were heavily planned prior to the release of X2, whether it be the further expansion of the X-Men universe via the introduction of entirely new characters, the bumping up of previous lesser characters, the inclusion of several nice character moments, or the setup of various arcs a la the Dark Phoenix Saga, I have no reason to believe that the further expansion of the X-Men Universe in X-Men 3 would suddenly have been halted with absolutely no inclusion of previous ideas that were so close to making the final cut.

 

[X-Maniac]

While talk may be cheap, paying for script drafts, provisions, character designs, 3D development, etc. isn't. You're contention was that you didn't believe the previous creative team would ever put an army of sentinels in an X-Men movie. In which case, they already did. They were simply cut due to outside factors. Whether or not they were in the final product doesn't remove the fact that they were supposed to be there. I have no doubt, that if allowed the sentinels would have been in an X-Men movie. Likewise, I have no doubt, that if allowed Kinberg and Penn would have had more in store for Famke Janssen than simply standing around for the majority of the third act of The Last Stand.

Based on the inclusion of the things we did get that were heavily planned prior to the release of X2, whether it be the further expansion of the X-Men universe via the introduction of entirely new characters, the bumping up of previous lesser characters, the inclusion of several nice character moments, or the setup of various arcs a la the Dark Phoenix Saga, I have no reason to believe that the further expansion of the X-Men Universe in X-Men 3 would suddenly have been halted with absolutely no inclusion of previous ideas that were so close to making the final cut.

All of which adds up to the fact that movies are made of more than creative ideas that exist and materialise without restraint or control. Therefore, those other factors that kept things from X1 and X2 can also apply to X3.

 

[gambitfire]

Even Low budget?

 

[BMM]

All of which adds up to the fact that movies are made of more than creative ideas that exist and materialise without restraint or control. Therefore, those other factors that kept things from X1 and X2 can also apply to X3.

Yes, which applies if one is discussing the likes of Fox, etc . . . but this is not what is really being called into question. What is being called into question are the previous creative team's decisions as to include additional characters, such as the sentinels, in the X-Men films, as though such additions are too far beyond their understanding of the X-Men universe to the extent that such characters would never be included in future movies. In which case, anyone who has been following these productions knows that this is not true (I'd still like to see Lauren Shuler Donner's great idea for Gambit). The intentions have always been there. Unfortunately, the funding hasn’t.

 

[BMM]

Double posting is fun.

 

[kg576094]

It fails to go into depth, explaining the occurance on Liberty Island, but it definatley does not contradict them.

The reason why Xavier wouldn't know about the machine breaking the mental blocks is that he didn't witness an instance of someone with mental blocks exposed to the radiation. Further explanation of this in X-Men: The Last Stand would have been welcomed. But the lack of it is not contradictory.

The reason why it was Phoenix, and not Dark Phoenix, is because Jean Grey has been in control for so long. The "beast" had been "caged" for so long, that Jean was able to dominate and control her own mind. However, glimpses of the Dark Phoenix struggling to break free are shown with the "nightmares" segment of X2. Her powers and the Phoenix persona are not one in the same. The mental blocks being broken, given her access to her full power, does not automatically allow the Phoenix to break through. She had her powers before Dark Phoenix, and can have them without Dark Phoenix.

But the Phoenix is struggling to break free. And when Jean "dies" underneath Alkali Lake, her conciousness is put into a comatose state. The lack of hold her mind has, now allows the Phoenix part of her mind to take control. Instinctually, Phoenix keeps Jean alive through the telekinetic cocoon underneath the lake. Cyclops' blast seems to awaken Jean, and her use of power, now unrestrained, awakens the Phoenix, who is able to take control of Jean's fragile mind.

Why did Xavier do nothing? Perhaps he didn't notice anything. The only thing we get is nightmares. Only Cyclops would know about that. Cyclops is the one sleeping with Jean, not Xavier. Xavier wouldn't know about that.

It's been only a matter of weeks since the end of X-Men that X2 takes place. Perhaps Xavier hasn't seen enough change in his student to send up red flags.

As far as the mental blocks working or not working; it's obvious that they didn't work in the movies, since they were so easily destroyed. But the difference is, Phoenix, in the movies, is not the all powerful cosmic entity that she is in the comic books. In the movies, Phoenix is another portion of Jean's mind, one that has been isolated from her concious mind. So the durability of the mental blocks is totally different; it's containing Jean, not an all powerful cosmic entity.

So no, they are not plotholes.

They are only plotholes because you are using the comic book version of Jean (all powerful cosmic entity) as the basis for the movie version of Jean (not an all powerful cosmic entity). The movies didn't take the cosmic entity route. And they wouldn't have under Singer.

There are no plotholes regarding the explanation of Jean. There is only lack of depth in the explanation. But it is nothing that paying attention to the 2 movies beforehand doesn't take care of.

I don't think what you say makes sense to me at all

So here you're saying that the Phoenix was the one wrecking Jean's mind every nite and the professor couldn't detect the Phoenix rite under his nose in his own mansion, but yet Calisto with supposedly Caliban's psychic powers could sense the presence of the Phoenix from a thousand miles away. Gosh, you couldn't have made the professor any dumber than dumb! Besides, does it make sense to you that Jean didn't approach the professor for help, to which he can easily do something about it by re-inserting those mental blocks. Also, I wonder how many will agree with you that the Jean who was so weak in X1 was able to control the Phoenix without the professor's help, and that all that the Phoenix could do after breaking free of its mental blocks was to give Jean nightmares every night. The Phoenix is a level 5 mutant wasnt it? These are loose ends in X2 regarding the Phoenix that cannot be simply brushed away with answers like he doesn't know or nobody told him, but should have been plugged in X3's explanation. Based on your assumptions and interpretation, the Phoenix saga is absolutely ruined by the mental block explanation because the Phoenix saga isn't abt the cumulative dumb mistakes of Professor X but the focus should be on Jean, her power corrupting, her decisions and how she eventually redempt herself by killing herself for everyone's sake. This is like telling the Venom story in Spiderman by having the alien symbiote attached only to Eddie Brock rite from the start to give the Venom, ignoring all that crucial development and relationship between spiderman and the alien symbiote. Yes we get to Venom or the Phoenix real fast but is this acceptable? Hell no!

 

[X-Maniac]

Yes, which applies if one is discussing the likes of Fox, etc . . . but this is not what is really being called into question. What is being called into question are the previous creative team's decisions as to include additional characters, such as the sentinels, in the X-Men films, as though such additions are too far beyond their understanding of the X-Men universe to the extent that such characters would never be included in future movies. In which case, anyone who has been following these productions knows that this is not true (I'd still like to see Lauren Shuler Donner's great idea for Gambit). The intentions have always been there. Unfortunately, the funding hasn’t.

Yes, i see. But creative ideas are always restrained by higher powers. Not just budget but other things too.

I too would like to see Bryan's ideas for Sentinels and Gambit on the big screen. At least the inclusion of Trask in X3 and a Sentinel in the DR provides a follow-on possiblity (the technology for the Sentinels could have been taken by the mansion raiders in X2, or conversely the X-men could be secretly preparing for Operation Wideawake using information they had taken from Stryker's documents).

 

[X-Maniac]

I don't think what you say makes sense to me at all

So here you're saying that the Phoenix was the one wrecking Jean's mind every nite and the professor couldn't detect the Phoenix rite under his nose in his own mansion, but yet Calisto with supposedly Caliban's psychic powers could sense the presence of the Phoenix from a thousand miles away. Gosh, you couldn't have made the professor any dumber than dumb! Besides, does it make sense to you that Jean didn't approach the professor for help, to which he can easily do something about it by re-inserting those mental blocks. Also, I wonder how many will agree with you that the Jean who was so weak in X1 was able to control the Phoenix without the professor's help, and that all that the Phoenix could do after breaking free of its mental blocks was to give Jean nightmares every night. The Phoenix is a level 5 mutant wasnt it? These are loose ends in X2 regarding the Phoenix that cannot be simply brushed away with answers like he doesn't know or nobody told him, but should have been plugged in X3's explanation. Based on your assumptions and interpretation, the Phoenix saga is absolutely ruined by the mental block explanation because the Phoenix saga isn't abt the cumulative dumb mistakes of Professor X but the focus should be on Jean, her power corrupting, her decisions and how she eventually redempt herself by killing herself for everyone's sake. This is like telling the Venom story in Spiderman by having the alien symbiote attached only to Eddie Brock rite from the start to give the Venom, ignoring all that crucial development and relationship between spiderman and the alien symbiote. Yes we get to Venom or the Phoenix real fast but is this acceptable? Hell no!

Well, yes and no... Jean in X1 was a different matter. If you take the evolution theory, she hadn't evolved until exposure to the machine. If you take X3's mental blocks theory, the Phoenix was held at bay behind psychic barriers until that machine reawakened it. You might well ask how Magneto's mutation machine broke down psychic barriers. First you have to look at what the barriers are. In the original comicbook Phoenix saga (the ending that was never published), Jean was effectively lobotomised to stop her accessing the Phoenix power. This involved the galaxy's top psychics actually burning away the nerve pathways in her brain that created the immense psychic energy. Xavier must have done something similar, somehow making part of her mind 'numb' and useless so that her mutation was not fully able to express itself. That machine of Magneto's reactivated the side that was 'dead' and it came to life again, slowly, over the course of X2. It was a power that was too much to control.


It was at first surfacing when Jean's subconscious was active (when she was asleep). Cyclops said the whole room was shaking when she had nightmares. The writers of X3 took this into account when the infirmary equipment was shaking and breaking when Jean was brought back there.

The story does tie together more than people think. Jean knows she has control issues and that forcing herself to tap into more power can be dangerous. She says this about using Cerebro in X1, she refuses to mind-scan Nightcrawler in the church in X2, and she becomes pretty 'dark' when she reacts to Cyclops' blasts in the dam in X2 - her eyes fire up and she flings him back across the room and is found by him on the floor twitching and shaking. This looks very much like the Phoenix is gradually re-establishing itself.

During X2, Xavier never seemed to sense what was happening to Jean (whether you accept evolution or the breaking of mental blocks) and he seemed remarkably indifferent to her power display at the end of the movie. He isn't always constantly psi-probing everyone around him. And for the story to work, that has to be the case. As in the comics, where he never intervened at an early stage.

In the comics - as in the movies - Phoenix blamed Xavier for what happened to her. In the comics it was because he helped develop her telepathic powers and she blamed him for setting in motion the events that led to her becoming Phoenix (later stories showed that he had held those powers back when she was younger, blocking them off). In the movies, he also creates blocks that create a chain of events that lead to Phoenix.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I don't think what you say makes sense to me at all

Okay, then I will break it down so that you do understand.

So here you're saying that the Phoenix was the one wrecking Jean's mind every nite and the professor couldn't detect the Phoenix rite under his nose in his own mansion, but yet Calisto with supposedly Caliban's psychic powers could sense the presence of the Phoenix from a thousand miles away. Gosh, you couldn't have made the professor any dumber than dumb!

Callisto can detect mutants... similar to the way Cerebro can. Xavier cannot detect mutants. Not without Cerebro. All he would detect is Jean. That's all that Callisto detected, and she also detected something very powerful about this mutant. Because part of her mutant ability is the ability to track mutants and their powers. Xavier can't. Phoenix is not a separate entity, and you have to understand that. The movie did not take the cosmic entity route. Phoenix is Jean. Jean is Phoenix. There is no other being here.

Besides, does it make sense to you that Jean didn't approach the professor for help, to which he can easily do something about it by re-inserting those mental blocks.

She was uncomfortable with Scott talking about it. He had to force it on her. Since X-Men: The Last Stand showed that it's "unclear how much she knew" (regarding Xavier's tampering with her mind), she wouldn't know that Xavier put mental blocks in to cage an alternate persona. All she knew was that he was helping her to develop her powers. What she didn't know is that he had put mental blocks to isolate her powers, and he was helping her learn to control those to a point where she could possibly wield them effectively, and under her control, without the mental blocks (that part is speculation, as nothing beyond "mental blocks" was established... but since X-Men establishes that Xavier is working with her to develop her powers, and a basic key element of Xavier's school and is teachings is to help mutants learn to control their powers, it's not very far fetched speculation at all, and does have evidence)

She didn't know that Xavier had put mental blocks in to control her powers, and she was uncomfortable talking about it, as shown by her conversation in the museum with Scott. I don't think she would have approached the Professor.

Also, I wonder how many will agree with you that the Jean who was so weak in X1 was able to control the Phoenix without the professor's help, and that all that the Phoenix could do after breaking free of its mental blocks was to give Jean nightmares every night. The Phoenix is a level 5 mutant wasnt it?

No. JEAN was a class 5 mutant. Phoenix is NOT A SEPARATE ENTITY. Phoenix is Jean. Jean is Phoenix. They are one in the same.

Jean was a class 5 mutant. Her powers were limited by Xavier's mental blocks. Phoenix was an alternate persona. When the mental blocks were destroyed by Magneto's machine, Jean had a solid, firm hold upon her own conciousness. However, the Phoenix was struggling to break free. We see this in her nightmares in X2. It isn't until Jean's conciousness is all but destroyed at Alkali Lake that the subconcious Phoenix is able to take hold.

These are loose ends in X2 regarding the Phoenix that cannot be simply brushed away with answers like he doesn't know or nobody told him, but should have been plugged in X3's explanation.

And they were. Your failure to see them does not equate to a contradiction, or a "sweeping under the rug".

The only thing X-Men: The Last Stand lacked was a more indepth analysis of what happened. As is, we're told she had mental blocks put in by Xavier, and that there was a dual personality that was caged away behind those mental blocks, and when Jean died, it came free. We're left to fill in the blanks. Luckily, everything adds up if you actually pay attention to all 3 movies.

Based on your assumptions and interpretation, the Phoenix saga is absolutely ruined by the mental block explanation because the Phoenix saga isn't abt the cumulative dumb mistakes of Professor X but the focus should be on Jean, her power corrupting, her decisions and how she eventually redempt herself by killing herself for everyone's sake. This is like telling the Venom story in Spiderman by having the alien symbiote attached only to Eddie Brock rite from the start to give the Venom, ignoring all that crucial development and relationship between spiderman and the alien symbiote. Yes we get to Venom or the Phoenix real fast but is this acceptable? Hell no!

And this is where it comes to a matter of opinion. Certain things in story telling are up for interpretation. It is your interpretation that the focus is on her sacrifice for everyone elses' sake. I think we got that, did we not? She wanted to die, did she not? She did ask Wolverine to kill her... a couple times. The sacrifice is there.

I think her power was also rather corruptive. Once her mental blocks were broken, and the Phoenix took hold, that persona was rather corrupted by power, killing off Cyclops for the sheer joy of that power... killing off Xavier who wanted to restrain that power... unleashing the full extent of her powers on Alcatraz when the military threatened her power with cure weapons. That seems pretty corrupted to me.

I won't sit here and blindly defend this version of the Phoenix Saga. In regards to how this story was told, I don't think they told it the best way possible. It seriously lacked some depth that would have helped it.

However, I wouldn't say they ruined it.

The theme of power corrupting is there. Her sacrifice for the good of everyone else is there. Those things are blatant, and cannot be argued against.

Hell, even her love for Cyclops, and their love conquering all is there. It's not as blatant as we would have liked (as I will be the first to admit that it should have been Cyclops who saved her, not Wolverine)... but she makes that sacrifice because she killed Scott, because of what she did to the man she loved more than anything. She wanted to die for him.

So although this wasn't the ideal way to tell the Phoenix Saga, I believe all of the essence of the story is there if you dig beneath the surface. And none of it contradicts anything that was established in X-Men and X2. A different direction, perhaps, due to a new creative team, and this not being a set in stone direction of story, like something like Lord of the Rings, but a loose adaptation of 40 years worth of material. But not a contradiction.

However, if you feel it didn't work, for whatever reason, that's fine. But it didn't contradict the previous movies, and I'd even argue that it retains the essence of the story it's telling, even if it's done in a very roundabout way.

 

[The Guard]

That's still a hell of alot better than what Ratner gave us.

???

Angel was to be seen flying overhead for a second when Xavier and Logan toured the X-mansion in X-MEN. That was it for him.

Angel in X2 was to be a cameo in Alkali Lake with Cyclops, and probably would never have flown, or had any arc to speak of.

In X3, he had multiple scenes, including two very powerful ones, and was integral to the overall thematics of the film. And he flew. Several times. You're telling me the ideas Singer had for Angel are better than what Vaughn/Ratner provided? Get your head examined.

Brett Ratner delivered Beast. I'm still waiting for the CORRECT version of Angel. He might have looked like Angel, but aside from that, his flight scenes, and his longing for freedom, Angel was basically an In-Name-Only to me.

Here we go with this "INO" nonsense. The character's name in X3 was Warren Worthington, and he had wings like an angel. He was a version of Angel, whether you like it or not. By your logic, we're still waiting for the correct versions of Wolverine, Storm, and god knows who else from Singer's time on the franchise.

Nightcrawler I'll agree with. But Deathstrike isn't a wower like Beast, Angel or Gambit all are.

That's my point. Singer "managed" to get Nightcrawler and Deathstrike into X2, but not Beast, Angel, or Gambit.

And X3 probably would've given us a better execution of Jean using her powers.

And you believe that Singer would have topped the godlike usage of power from Dark Phoenix because...

None of her standing around being mute and doing nothing, and ALSO none of that de-molecularization crap.

Did you watch the scenes where Jean Grey DID things? They were amazing. Jean's best moments in X-MEN and X2 were silent. Ditto X3.

And Ratner's Sentinel (note the singular) was alot better? Withstanding it's head, we barely saw ANY of that one, single Sentinel.

It's not really about SEEING the damn thing, it's about what it does, and what context its used in. Singer wanted Sentinels to help Stryker's men open the door to Cerebro. Ratner showed us a giant robot in a warzone ripped right out of Days of Future Past, tearing things to hell with lasers.

Hmmm . . . Jean destroying an entire army of sentinels via her power as the Phoenix and later telekinetically employing Cyclops' optic blasts as a means to destroy her sound like some pretty climactic ideas to me.

These are Zak Penn's ideas. Not Bryan Singer's. If you pay attention to what Penn says, it certainly sounds like Bryan Singer REJECTED these ideas and chose to go with his own ending to X2.

Maybe I don't know the character as much as you, but... what else is to Angel than what you said? I mean, looks was ok, personality ok, flight ok, what is missing?

He's an arrogant rich ******* with a heart of gold who the ladies love. That's about it, really. Sure, he's had good moments in the comics, but short of Angel-centric movies, and without the inclusion of Apocalypse, we were never going to get all that many good "Angel" moments in this franchise.

The original plan was for mini-Sentinels to raid the mansion (rather than soldiers) to download Cerebro's mutant database (rather than soldiers taking pieces of Cerebro).

I believe the concept called for soldiers to raid the mansion, and then to use Sentinels to handle Cerebro. And that has what to do with Sentinels as we know them? Compare that to what Ratner showed in X3.

I'm not sure how the kidnap of Xavier/Cyclops and most of the pre-dam scenes were configured, but it ended with Sentinels active within the dam, destroying Stryker (as they sensed the mutant gene he had passed to his son - a pay-off for the line in the Drake house about father's carrying the x-gene) and then Jean apparently went all Phoenix, telekinetically shoving everyone out of the base, locking herself in and blowing the Sentinels to pieces in a fiery Phoenix sacrifice. It wouldn't have shown Sentinels active on city streets or anything like that.

Again, I believe this was Zak Penn's idea, not Bryan Singer's.

Bryan's style is very much teasing and suggesting things, layering in ideas, giving hints of bigger things but holding back. To some, that is at times frustrating because it leaves you wanting more but you don't get more.

Let's be honest with ourselves. When Singer can go full bore, he does (Wolverine's fight sequences, a lot of the power usages, Cerebro, etc). Bryan Singer held back at certain points during X-MEN and X2 because he didn't have the budget not to. Watch SUPERMAN RETURNS. There's not all that much "holding back" to it.

Later in the day, [Production Designer Guy] Dyas discussed the matter of the mutant-hunting mechs, [The Sentinels]. "I did lots of sketches on Sentinels. There were three designs we came up with and one was what we ultimately decided upon, but Fox said no." It's hard to imagine what they could dream up in a digital effects age that would cause budget-conscious Fox to tank the Sentinels, but Dyas remained upbeat. "It was cool, they were going to attack the White House." The scene now involves more traditional military forces . . .

Why the hell would Sentinels attack the White House?

Again, talking is cheap. Singer can say whatever he wants, he may have planned a lot of stuff, but what we know for sure is what we got, and based on that, I can't believe Singer would have put either sentinels, Beast, Angel, Gambit or a better Cyclops in X3

Exactly.

 

[Theweepeople]

That's not inconsistent at all. That's kind of the whole point of the scene. She's human now, and Magneto hates humans. Even when his own ally/friend became one, he shunned her. That's bigotry to the extreme. Magneto simply admitted that Xavier did a lot for mutantkind to Pyro, and said he regretted his death for their cause."

I can except Magneto being consistenly callous or consistently showing compassion. But, he showed neither in the film. Not sheading a tear in the scene of one of his best friends(Raven) suffering a terrible fate is one thing. But, then to show compassion towards the death of one of his greatest enemies a few scenes later is just absurd. It's as if Magneto had multiple personalities in this film. There's the compassionate Magneto(Xavier's death). The callous Magneto(Raven being cured). The thoughtful and inspirational Magneto(Forest scene). The uncharateristic Magneto(Did Jean use her powers to help Magneto in any way?). The thoughtless Magneto(Juggernaut kill Leech).

Don't you mean Dark Phoenix irrationally killing off Cyclops?.

Regardless of whether it was Dark Phoenix or not Jean inconsistently decided not to kill Wolverine(who actually made her angry), not kill Magneto(an enemy trying to manipulate her), not kill most of the brotherhood(an enemy trying to manipulate her) and only killed 3 brotherhood members(who possed no threat to her). What bothers me about all of this is Jeans reason for killing Xavier was the only death that had any clear motivation. Ultimately, her motivations for taking lives and sparing them is completely, random. This is the type of storytelling I'd expect to see in awful horror films about zombies.

Someone has to go to Alkali Lake and investigate...and since Xavier's in a wheelchair...the terrain might be difficult for him.

I was not suggesting that Xavier go to Alkali Lake. My problem was I thought the scene was too fast. All of the intensity that led up to that scene was gone in an ackward instant after Xavier gave Wolverine and Storm orders and the scene changes.

That is clearly not the only reason why she stays with him.

Magneto might well have been afraid of what she could do, but that wouldn't likely stop him.

I heard other reasons for why she wanted to stay with him and I think all of it is BS. Please give me a reason why I should believe the most powerful and nearly immortal mutant on the planet would want to stay with a bunch of lower class mutants who can't offer her anything she can't get on her own.

This is pretty much the only thing you're right about.

I'm right about many things and you're wrong about something things. This was just one of many examples of how the writing was lazy and the filmmaking was bad.

Uh, maybe because she's the most powerful mutant ever, and Magneto can use that to his advantage?

Yet, Magneto does not give the most powerful mutant ever any orders at the end battle. More lazy writing and bad filmmaking.

He's clearly referring to the X-Men when he says "We will use this poison against them". Which thousands of mutants would oppose him again??

Well, he was referring to the X-Men or not there are thousands of other mutants who would oppose him. Did you forget that there are other mutants on the planet who aren't X-Men and believe in living peacefully with the humans? You really need to be more imaginative.

There's no guarantee that the collapsing building would have killed any or all of those people. And who says the building is made of metal?

We see scenes of marines, Warrens father, and Dr. Rao inside the buildings on Al-Catraz and your convinced none of them would have been hurt?

And who says the building is made of metal?

So are you tring to convince me the foundations of those buildings were made out of wood and plastic?

Makes sense to me.

Makes no sense to me.

In any scenario when the cure doesn't come into play, and the X-Men aren't there, the Brotherhood clearly has a major advantage over the army.

The problem I had with the final battle was a lot of those mutants Magneto hired had mutations that merely made them look weird. Allowing a mutant as usless as quills was bad enough but, bringing mutants into his army whose mutations consisted of physical traits that slightly varied from humans was pathetic.

And doing AMAZING things at the end, when it meant the most storywise.

Yet, doing amazing things that were inconsistent from everything else she did. The only consistent thing about Jean in this movie was her inconsistency.

So?.

Consistency. What were her motivations behind all of this?

What did Wolverine ever threaten her with? Caring about her? And she did attempt to do what she did to Xavier. Wolverine, btw, didn't lie to Jean or control her or put mental blocks into her..

What did Cyclops ever threaten her with? Caring about her?

That's not it as a plot device, but the cure being used as a THEMATIC. That's the movie saying "you can't just 'cure' physical differences or differences in idealogy".

The problem with this reasoning is the cure was used as a "you can just cure physical differences or differences in idealogy" theme with Rogue taking a cure. This idea was first brought up in Beast's response to Storm's violent reaction to the cure. So in reality X3 has two contradictory themes that oppose each other. All of this is the result of lazy writing and bad filmmaking.

 

[The Guard]

Not sheading a tear in the scene of one of his best friends(Raven) suffering a terrible fate is one thing.

Are you kidding me? Do you really not get this scene? Magneto WAS consistent in that scene. Consistent in his hatred of humans, established in X-MEN, and carried over through three films. Which Mystique now was. Human.

But, then to show compassion towards the death of one of his greatest enemies a few scenes later is just absurd.

He doesn't show "compassion". He shows "regret" and some "reverence". There is a huge difference. Which X-Men films have you been watching that you haven't figured out by now that Magneto, as much as he hates the fact that Xavier fights against him, still values Charles Xavier's contributions to the mutant cause?

It's as if Magneto had multiple personalities in this film. There's the compassionate Magneto(Xavier's death). The callous Magneto(Raven being cured). The thoughtful and inspirational Magneto(Forest scene). The uncharateristic Magneto(Did Jean use her powers to help Magneto in any way?). The thoughtless Magneto(Juggernaut kill Leech).

God forbid a character have many angles to him. Magneto is not just one, single, solitary emotion. That'd be boring. He was very consistent in his belief that mutants were superior, and his hatred of humans.

Regardless of whether it was Dark Phoenix or not Jean inconsistently decided not to kill Wolverine(who actually made her angry), not kill Magneto(an enemy trying to manipulate her), not kill most of the brotherhood(an enemy trying to manipulate her) and only killed 3 brotherhood members(who possed no threat to her).
What bothers me about all of this is Jeans reason for killing Xavier was the only death that had any clear motivation. Ultimately, her motivations for taking lives and sparing them is completely, random. This is the type of storytelling I'd expect to see in awful horror films about zombies.

Wolverine was obviously not her enemy. She more or less tortured him at the end of X3, and you can see pretty clearly that Jean is fighting so that Phoenix won't kill Wolverine. Magneto may have been manipulating her, but it's what Jean WANTED, to not be controlled. So why would she ever have turned on Magneto and killed him, when being around him got her what she wanted? The reason Jean kills all the random people is just that...her power lashes out RANDOMLY, which is why earlier in the film Xavier says "You're a danger to yourself, and everyone around you". Phoenix's power is unstable. Unpredictable.

I was not suggesting that Xavier go to Alkali Lake. My problem was I thought the scene was too fast. All of the intensity that led up to that scene was gone in an ackward instant after Xavier gave Wolverine and Storm orders and the scene changes.

Good. That's what the screenwriters intended. What else do you need to see from that sequence?

I heard other reasons for why she wanted to stay with him and I think all of it is BS. Please give me a reason why I should believe the most powerful and nearly immortal mutant on the planet would want to stay with a bunch of lower class mutants who can't offer her anything she can't get on her own.

Just because you think the reasons people give are BS doesn't make them so. Why would she want to stay with the Brotherhood? Because she has nowhere else to go. Jean is lost. Phoenix, the entity inside her, simply wants to be where she will not be controlled. Where her power is valued. The Brotherhood is such a place. And structually, there simply isn't room in the story for Jean to still be "on her own".

I'm right about many things and you're wrong about something things. This was just one of many examples of how the writing was lazy and the filmmaking was bad.

It's an example of your inability to properly interpret what's onscreen. I.E, the Magneto/Mystique sequence.

Yet, Magneto does not give the most powerful mutant ever any orders at the end battle. More lazy writing and bad filmmaking.

What's he going to say? "Phoenix...kill Iceman"? Magneto never thinks he has to bring Phoenix into the battle. For all he knows, he's more or less got the upper hand the entire time.

Well, he was referring to the X-Men or not there are thousands of other mutants who would oppose him. Did you forget that there are other mutants on the planet who aren't X-Men and believe in living peacefully with the humans? You really need to be more imaginative.

You're telling me that other mutants would just randomly oppose a man with immense magnetic powers, who is backed by a godlike being, and an entire Brotherhood? It's not about imagination, which I have plenty of...it's about realism.

We see scenes of marines, Warrens father, and Dr. Rao inside the buildings on Al-Catraz and your convinced none of them would have been hurt?

I said "There is no guarantee they would be killed". Being hurt is not being killed. And there's not even a guarantee that they'd be hurt.

The problem I had with the final battle was a lot of those mutants Magneto hired had mutations that merely made them look weird. Allowing a mutant as usless as quills was bad enough but, bringing mutants into his army whose mutations consisted of physical traits that slightly varied from humans was pathetic.

Varied slightly from humans? Weren't you the one whining about people needing to use their imaginations? Take your own advice on this one. Magneto has mutants who can leap incredible distances, mutants who can breathe lava, mutants who can grow to immense sizes, regrow limbs, etc, and you can't figure out how they'd be useful in battle?

Yet, doing amazing things that were inconsistent from everything else she did. The only consistent thing about Jean in this movie was her inconsistency.

That might be because she was portrayed as essentially having a multiple personality.

Consistency. What were her motivations behind all of this?

If you can't figure it out, that's between your intelligence and you. Jean had become a creature of pure instict and ego. She had evolved in power, and devolved in psyche. Figure it out from there.

What did Cyclops ever threaten her with? Caring about her?

No. Never said he did. What's your point? It was made clear that her power simply went out of control when Cyclops died. Phoenix was portrayed as incredibly unstable (and yes, inconsistent, but that's her CHARACTER).

The problem with this reasoning is the cure was used as a "you can just cure physical differences or differences in idealogy" theme with Rogue taking a cure. This idea was first brought up in Beast's response to Storm's violent reaction to the cure. So in reality X3 has two contradictory themes that oppose each other. All of this is the result of lazy writing and bad filmmaking.

The Cure wasn't used as any ONE thing, or to deliver any ONE message. The writers goal was not to tell you "This is how you should handle being different and choosing to assimilate or not". They're not preaching at the audience. The writers goal was to make people think about all the angles of such a situation, and about the issues surrounding assimilation.

 

[Silvermoth]

But there was a reason Singer didn't put in Beast, Gamit etc in his movies, he was fleshing them out, rather than Ratner who just had them as eye candy. Can you really tell me that a well fleshed out character like Nightcrawler in X2 is inferior compared to Multiple Man's cameo before he was shunted out of view

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

But there was a reason Singer didn't put in Beast, Gamit etc in his movies, he was fleshing them out, rather than Ratner who just had them as eye candy. Can you really tell me that a well fleshed out character like Nightcrawler in X2 is inferior compared to Multiple Man's cameo before he was shunted out of view

No... but Nightcrawler was a fully fleshed out character whereas Multiple Man was a cameo.

If any comparisson be made, it's more along the lines of Iceman in X-Men compared to Multiple Man. Or Colossus in X2 compared to Multiple Man.

I would say that Nightcrawler's character is inferior to Beast...

 

[Theweepeople]

Are you kidding me? Do you really not get this scene? Magneto WAS consistent in that scene. Consistent in his hatred of humans, established in X-MEN, and carried over through three films. Which Mystique now was. Human.

Nope. I'm not kidding you. I don't accept Magneto not feeling sorry for his longtime friend being forced into becoming something he hated. What's so hard about understanding this?

He doesn't show "compassion". He shows "regret" and some "reverence". There is a huge difference. Which X-Men films have you been watching that you haven't figured out by now that Magneto, as much as he hates the fact that Xavier fights against him, still values Charles Xavier's contributions to the mutant cause?

Where was the regret and reverence Magneto was supposed to show Mystique after she prevented him from getting cured by getting cured?

God forbid a character have many angles to him. Magneto is not just one, single, solitary emotion. That'd be boring. He was very consistent in his belief that mutants were superior, and his hatred of humans.

I'm not talking about his belief that mutants were superior. Of course that never changed. I'm talking about his inconsistent scheming and decision making in this film.

Wolverine was obviously not her enemy. She more or less tortured him at the end of X3, and you can see pretty clearly that Jean is fighting so that Phoenix won't kill Wolverine.

I don't know what movie you were watching but, I didn't see Jean fighting against the Phoenix force. If there was a fight scene in the movie between Jean and Phoenix on the astral plane then maybe I could by what you are saying but, for now I'm not buying it.

Magneto may have been manipulating her, but it's what Jean WANTED, to not be controlled. So why would she ever have turned on Magneto and killed him, when being around him got her what she wanted?

What the heck are you talking about? So now you are telling me that Magneto was not trying to manipulate Jean after seeing how confused and unstable she was after killing Xavier? The forest scene where Jean aims the needles at Magneto completely destroys this theory. Jean might have been unstable and confused but, she is a telepath and knew damn well that Magneto is an opportunist and was trying to use her when he could offer her nothing that she couldn't attain on her on.

The reason Jean kills all the random people is just that...her power lashes out RANDOMLY, which is why earlier in the film Xavier says "You're a danger to yourself, and everyone around you". Phoenix's power is unstable. Unpredictable.

The problem with this reasoning is there is a pattern to every thing that happens. Physicists agree that even radom events have some order. I wanted to see a pattern to Jeans unstableness. The only patterns I saw in some of the deaths caused by Jean and the lives that were sparred by her are the following:

Cyclops dies because Tom Rothman wanted it to happen.
Xavier dies because Tom Rothman wanted it to happen.
Wolverine lives because Tom Rothman wanted it to happen.
Storm lives because Tom Rothman wanted it to happen.

Good. That's what the screenwriters intended. What else do you need to see from that sequence?

It was their intent to make me and the rest of their audience feel ackward?

Just because you think the reasons people give are BS doesn't make them so. Why would she want to stay with the Brotherhood? Because she has nowhere else to go. Jean is lost. Phoenix, the entity inside her, simply wants to be where she will not be controlled.

If Jean is motivated to not be controlled then she wouldn't have joined forces with anyone because regardless of what side she would be on someone would be using her to do good or evil. Your argument incredibly weak.

Where her power is valued. The Brotherhood is such a place. And structually, there simply isn't room in the story for Jean to still be "on her own".

If there wasn't room in the story for Jean to be on her own then maybe the production team of X3 should have waited to come up with a better storyline than the confusing inconsistent mess that we got.

It's an example of your inability to properly interpret what's onscreen. I.E, the Magneto/Mystique sequence.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The funny thing is I had no problem with that scene until after Xavier was killed.

What's he going to say? "Phoenix...kill Iceman"? Magneto never thinks he has to bring Phoenix into the battle. For all he knows, he's more or less got the upper hand the entire time.

For starters he could have told Jean to kill all of the marines who were destroying the first wave of his army with the cure guns. Secondly he could have ordered her to take out Storm instead of watching Callisto fight it out again. Then he could have told her to kill leech. I just find it strange that Magneto went to great lengths to recruit the most powerful mutant on the planet and then does nothing with her except let her stand by his side like a zombie. I thought all of this was the result of lazy writing and bad filmmaking.

You're telling me that other mutants would just randomly oppose a man with immense magnetic powers,

Where did you get the random idea from? Beast having a position in congress suggests there were many mutants who wanted peace between humans and mutants. These same mutants could easily band together and try to stop anyone who would disrupt this peace. That makes sense and there is nothing random about it. This is a simple concept. An example would be in the middle east where there are muslims who have sided with the jews in Isreal against terrorist muslims because the muslim terrorists are destroying the peace between the jews and the muslims who want to do business with them.

who is backed by a godlike being

After hearing about the godlike being doing nothing for Magneto in action I doubt that any of the anti-terrorist mutants would be scared. Some of them figured they might be able to get her to change sides. As for the brotherhood, I doubt that a bunch of 50 mutants whose mutantion is looking weird would put a scare into other more powerful mutants who wanted to live in peace and harmony with humans.

I said "There is no guarantee they would be killed". Being hurt is not being killed. And there's not even a guarantee that they'd be hurt.

Regardless of how you spin this Magneto's decision to not cause any of the buidlings to crumble, thereby, avoiding a battle that could destroy his his army does not make sense.

Varied slightly from humans? Weren't you the one whining about people needing to use their imaginations? Take your own advice on this one. Magneto has mutants who can leap incredible distances, mutants who can breathe lava, mutants who can grow to immense sizes, regrow limbs, etc, and you can't figure out how they'd be useful in battle?

So we see 10 out of 100 of Magneto's mutants doing what you said in a few short scenes. I do remember seeing scenes of Beast, Collosus, Kitty, and Iceman fighting mutiple mutants with none of the powers you mentioned. Wolverine had one scene where he fights a mutant with one useful power but, he had multiple ones with powerless mutants. What's hillarious is considering the size of Magneto's army the X-Men still should have gotten their asses kicked.

That might be because she was portrayed as essentially having a multiple personality.

A multiple personality that killed with little to no pattern or clear motivation.

If you can't figure it out, that's between your intelligence and you. Jean had become a creature of pure instict and ego. She had evolved in power, and devolved in psyche. Figure it out from there.

I figured it out 5 months ago. The writers and filmmakers wanted the audience to believe the Jean they created had clear motivations that could be understood but, they were too lazy to give her character a meaningful role in this film.

No. Never said he did. What's your point? It was made clear that her power simply went out of control when Cyclops died. Phoenix was portrayed as incredibly unstable (and yes, inconsistent, but that's her CHARACTER).

This all makes sense. Jeans powers went out of control to the extent of Cyclops and Xavier dying. But, not out of control to the extent of killing Magneto, Wolverine and Storm.

The Cure wasn't used as any ONE thing, or to deliver any ONE message. The writers goal was not to tell you "This is how you should handle being different and choosing to assimilate or not". They're not preaching at the audience. The writers goal was to make people think about all the angles of such a situation, and about the issues surrounding assimilation.

Interesting except I thought the movie didn't have any clear message since we truely don't know if the cure is permanent or not after the final scene. All of this makes the end result of Rogue's decision to take the cure confusing. So the message of the film should be something confusing like "This is how you could handle trying to be different and trying to assimilate but, all of this may be a waste of time." Or "you can try to cure physical differences or differences in idealogy but, all of this may be a waste of time." That's my interepretation of these poorly contrived themes.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Nope. I'm not kidding you. I don't accept Magneto not feeling sorry for his longtime friend being forced into becoming something he hated. What's so hard about understanding this?

Magneto did not believe in mutant / human co-existence. He felt that mutants were superior to humans. He is, for all intents and purposes, a racist. It's like Hitler, with the blonde haired, blue eyed, super human Arian race that he believed in.

Mystique was no longer that. She was no longer part of the cause. She was now inferior.

What's so hard about understanding this?

Where was the regret and reverence Magneto was supposed to show Mystique after she prevented him from getting cured by getting cured?

"Such a shame, she was so beautiful"

I'm not talking about his belief that mutants were superior. Of course that never changed. I'm talking about his inconsistent scheming and decision making in this film.

Again, God forbid somebody have multiple emotions.

I don't know what movie you were watching but, I didn't see Jean fighting against the Phoenix force. If there was a fight scene in the movie between Jean and Phoenix on the astral plane then maybe I could by what you are saying but, for now I'm not buying it.

Struggle is shown between Jean and Phoenix. All throughout the movie. She did not "stand around" as a "mute" as much as people claim. She stood on the bridge, in the final battle, because she was torn. Jean didn't want to fight. Phoenix didn't want to leave. The rest of the movie clearly shows the struggle between Jean and Phoenix, and how lost she is.

What the heck are you talking about? So now you are telling me that Magneto was not trying to manipulate Jean after seeing how confused and unstable she was after killing Xavier? The forest scene where Jean aims the needles at Magneto completely destroys this theory. Jean might have been unstable and confused but, she is a telepath and knew damn well that Magneto is an opportunist and was trying to use her when he could offer her nothing that she couldn't attain on her on.

Jean / Phoenix was lost and confused. And it goes deeper than that. Yes, she might be the most powerful mutant, more powerful than Magneto. But why be alone? Mutants aren't in our real world, so there is nothing that powerful. But I am a very strong minded, strong willed individual. I feel that I am a very independant person. But... I'm not just going to go off and be on my own.

Jean was lost. She felt she had no family. Magneto encouraged her. Gave her words of support. Stroked her ego. Surely that's something very appealing to be around. Even if you don't need others around to justify your own power. It's surely a nice thing to have. And in the end, they both wanted the same thing. So why not work together?

The problem with this reasoning is there is a pattern to every thing that happens. Physicists agree that even radom events have some order. I wanted to see a pattern to Jeans unstableness. The only patterns I saw in some of the deaths caused by Jean and the lives that were sparred by her are the following:

Cyclops dies because Tom Rothman wanted it to happen.
Xavier dies because Tom Rothman wanted it to happen.
Wolverine lives because Tom Rothman wanted it to happen.
Storm lives because Tom Rothman wanted it to happen.

What?!

Cyclops dies because this is Phoenix's first use of unrestrained power. This use of power completely awakens Phoenix. Phoenix is a creature of desire, joy, and rage. Using that power is her desire, it gives her joy. And being full of rage, she uses it in a violent matter.

Xavier died because he's the one who wanted to "cage the beast". Phoenix didn't want to be caged.

Wolverine lives, because just because one person kills once, doesn't mean they automatically kill again everytime someone aggrivates them.

And she was violent and hostile towards him. Wrecklessly launching him across a room into a wall, and then proceeding to utterly destroy a door on your way out of the mansion isn't exactly rosey flowers and rainbows.

Storm lived because... Jean and Storm never fought...

It was their intent to make me and the rest of their audience feel ackward?

It was a moment of mystery. We weren't supposed to see the movie the first time knowing everything that happened thanks to an online script review and countless days, nights, weeks, months, of researching every minute detail of this film until it's release. Something was happening to Cyclops, and we weren't supposed to know what. Something was wrong. It was a moment of tension and mystery. Because we knew what was happening, it was kind of ruined...

If Jean is motivated to not be controlled then she wouldn't have joined forces with anyone because regardless of what side she would be on someone would be using her to do good or evil. Your argument incredibly weak.

Ego stroking.

Why be alone? Nobody wants to be alone. Being along sucks.

Jean is all powerful, yes. But she has someone in Magneto who encourages her, supports her, and has the same goal as she does... sounds pretty logical to me.

If there wasn't room in the story for Jean to be on her own then maybe the production team of X3 should have waited to come up with a better storyline than the confusing inconsistent mess that we got.

Jean is all powerful, yes. But she has someone in Magneto who encourages her, supports her, and has the same goal as she does... sounds pretty logical to me.

For starters he could have told Jean to kill all of the marines who were destroying the first wave of his army with the cure guns. Secondly he could have ordered her to take out Storm instead of watching Callisto fight it out again. Then he could have told her to kill leech. I just find it strange that Magneto went to great lengths to recruit the most powerful mutant on the planet and then does nothing with her except let her stand by his side like a zombie. I thought all of this was the result of lazy writing and bad filmmaking.

Lazy writing? That scene was included. It's a deleted scene. Magneto tells Jean to do something, and she quips back "You sound like him again"

Jean wasn't going to be controlled. She'd do something when she felt good and ready. She wouldn't do something because Magneto said so.

Part of the point of the film is Magneto's mistake, that he realizes at the end.

He goes to great lengths to get her on his side, thinking he can control her;

Callisto: "Her power is completely unstable"
Magneto: "Only in the wrong hands"

He thinks he can control her. He can't. Wolverine was right when he said Magneto had no idea what he was messing with. Magneto didn't know. And he didn't realize it until too late; "What have I done?"

Where did you get the random idea from? Beast having a position in congress suggests there were many mutants who wanted peace between humans and mutants. These same mutants could easily band together and try to stop anyone who would disrupt this peace. That makes sense and there is nothing random about it. This is a simple concept. An example would be in the middle east where there are muslims who have sided with the jews in Isreal against terrorist muslims because the muslim terrorists are destroying the peace between the jews and the muslims who want to do business with them.

This movie is called "X-Men"

Not "Random Mutants Who Believe In Peace and Co-Existence And Band Together To Fight Magneto"

Other humans could have stood up against the machines in the "one possible future" of the Terminator franchise. None did. It was John Connor. Because the movie is about that story arc. Not some random guy taking a stand if Sarah Connor is killed. John Connor.

This movie is about the X-Men taking a stand, and standing in Magneto's way. Not random mutants who may or may not agree with Xavier's dream of co-existence.

After hearing about the godlike being doing nothing for Magneto in action I doubt that any of the anti-terrorist mutants would be scared. Some of them figured they might be able to get her to change sides. As for the brotherhood, I doubt that a bunch of 50 mutants whose mutantion is looking weird would put a scare into other more powerful mutants who wanted to live in peace and harmony with humans.

North Korea hasn't dropped their nukes on us yet. I still wouldn't go up to the Dictator and punch him in the face just because he hasn't done it yet...

And yes, I suppose the powers of teleportation, re-growing limbs, breathing fire, making fire, creating spines out of your skin, growing bone out of your body, changing size, creating shockwaves, super speed, and camoflauge are all just "looking wierd"

Keep in mind, these are all powers that the Brotherhood was shown to possess amongst the group. Who knows what else there was.

Regardless of how you spin this Magneto's decision to not cause any of the buidlings to crumble, thereby, avoiding a battle that could destroy his his army does not make sense.

It makes sense because it wouldn't avoid a battle. The military still came from behind, remeber? The United States has a much larger military than simply some troops on an island. Crumbling the building would not have guaranteed the deaths of those that Magneto needed dead. It would then only further complicate things when Magneto needed to clean up the rubble to get to those he needed to make sure were dead, make sure they were dead, end up doing the job personally (like Juggernaut went to do in the movie anyways), all while having to still fight off the reinforcements sent in by the military.

And who says Magneto didn't want this battle?

So we see 10 out of 100 of Magneto's mutants doing what you said in a few short scenes. I do remember seeing scenes of Beast, Collosus, Kitty, and Iceman fighting mutiple mutants with none of the powers you mentioned. Wolverine had one scene where he fights a mutant with one useful power but, he had multiple ones with powerless mutants. What's hillarious is considering the size of Magneto's army the X-Men still should have gotten their asses kicked.

These were underground mutants he picked up off the streets. He's a revolutionary. He doesn't have a nation and a real trained military behind him. He's left to get the untrained mutants to fight him. Not all of these mutants will be fully trained in how to use their powers. However, because they believe in his cause, it's a cause they are willing to sacrifice themselves for. Callisto did say none of the mutants were above a class 3...

A multiple personality that killed with little to no pattern or clear motivation.

The motivation was the threat of her power being taken away.

Xavier wanted to cage her. She lashed out on Wolverine when he suggested Xavier being able to cage her. She toyed with Magneto because she thought he wanted to control her. She went totally insane on Alcatraz when countless cure darts were fired in her direction, and she began destroying the entire island. She wasn't picking and choosing who died. Many people didn't get out. The X-Men did.

The only death that doesn't fall into that category is Cyclops. And I will admit to you that was totally a "we're writting this character out" death.

I figured it out 5 months ago. The writers and filmmakers wanted the audience to believe the Jean they created had clear motivations that could be understood but, they were too lazy to give her character a meaningful role in this film.

The role was quite meaningful. Your inability to comprehend it does not make it non-meaningful.

This all makes sense. Jeans powers went out of control to the extent of Cyclops and Xavier dying. But, not out of control to the extent of killing Magneto, Wolverine and Storm.

Yes. Pretty much.

She never faced off against Storm. Had no reason to kill Magneto. Cyclops is questionable. Acted out violently against Wolverine.

Someone who does something once doesn't mean they always do it everytime. Just because she killed Cyclops doesn't mean she has to kill Wolverine.

 

[BMM]

These are Zak Penn's ideas. Not Bryan Singer's. If you pay attention to what Penn says, it certainly sounds like Bryan Singer REJECTED these ideas and chose to go with his own ending to X2.

As is noted by Penn in his screenwriter interview, Hayter and Singer are the one’s who wanted to go with the Dark Phoenix Saga, and in the X2 dvd commentary, Hayter presents his idea of Jean using Cyclops’ blasts to destroy herself rather than the large gun that she uses in the comic books. Penn incorporated various elements of God Loves, Man Kills into his draft, including sentinels. It seems clear that Singer was very interested in incorporating sentinels as well, as he was involved in developing their designs before pre-production even began on X2. Both ideas were cut by Fox.

I believe the concept called for soldiers to raid the mansion, and then to use Sentinels to handle Cerebro. And that has what to do with Sentinels as we know them? Compare that to what Ratner showed in X3.

The original concept called for the sentinels to raid the mansion, etc. The sentinels were never intended to only be used to handle Cerebro. As is noted, they were cut little by little due to budgetary constraints until there was room for only one, at which point they decided to cut it out completely because it was essentially considered to be a rather lame inclusion. The sentinels were subsequently replaced with soldiers.

Again, I believe this was Zak Penn's idea, not Bryan Singer's.

I’m not quick to solely credit Singer with any of these ideas, as both Hayter and Penn are the ones who developed the various scripts. Again, in Penn’s scriptwriter interview, he notes that Singer looked at both his and Hayter’s drafts and found good ideas in both. This looks to be a jumble of The God Loves, Man Kills portions of Penn’s draft as well as the elements of the Dark Phoenix Saga they wanted to include. Very little has been said regarding these portions of the script drafts and why they did or didn’t come to be.

Why the hell would Sentinels attack the White House?

I don’t know. Perhaps Dyas meant the school, or perhaps in one of the various drafts the sentinels were meant to turn on the humans . . .

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Magneto did not believe in mutant / human co-existence. He felt that mutants were superior to humans. He is, for all intents and purposes, a racist. It's like Hitler, with the blonde haired, blue eyed, super human Arian race that he believed in.

Mystique was no longer that. She was no longer part of the cause. She was now inferior.

What's so hard about understanding this?

Whats so hard to understand is how he can immediatly turn on someone who was a long time friend and confidant. Throughout all 3 movies, no one was more loyal to Magneto than Mystique, she broke him out of prison in 2, saved his life in 3, yet Magneto just dismisses her as soon as she is cured, sorry i dont buy it.

Struggle is shown between Jean and Phoenix. All throughout the movie. She did not "stand around" as a "mute" as much as people claim. She stood on the bridge, in the final battle, because she was torn. Jean didn't want to fight. Phoenix didn't want to leave. The rest of the movie clearly shows the struggle between Jean and Phoenix, and how lost she is.

Hardly any struggle between Jean and The Phoenix is shown in the movie other than the lab scene. Jean never spoke a word for the second half of the movie up until she said "Save me" to Wolverine. Someone who doesnt speak for half a movie could easily be considered a mute. You said Jean didnt want to fight yet Pheonix didnt want to leave, were we shown this at all? No, we werent she just stayed in the background standing in exactly the same position throughout the whole final battle. A quick scene of Jean going to walk off and then dragging herself back telekinetically WOULD have shown a conflict. But no, poor story telling prevailed.

Jean / Phoenix was lost and confused. And it goes deeper than that. Yes, she might be the most powerful mutant, more powerful than Magneto. But why be alone? Mutants aren't in our real world, so there is nothing that powerful. But I am a very strong minded, strong willed individual. I feel that I am a very independant person. But... I'm not just going to go off and be on my own.

Jean was lost. She felt she had no family. Magneto encouraged her. Gave her words of support. Stroked her ego. Surely that's something very appealing to be around. Even if you don't need others around to justify your own power. It's surely a nice thing to have. And in the end, they both wanted the same thing. So why not work together?

You say why be alone? Why be with Magneto? Someone who had tried to kill her and the ones she loves multiple times in the past (probably more so than even the movies showed us) Magneto was also giving Jean what could be considered orders at her house. WHY does she choose to go with him and fight his war, WHY? We are never told, shown or anything. And dont give me the bull**** about feeding her ego, she is a beautiful woman and the most powerful mutant on the planet, there are plenty of people out there who would have fed her ego. Also she is telepathic, cant she read the minds of the multiple brotherhood members who dont want her to be there, or Magneto's mind for that matter who just sees her as a weapon?

Cyclops dies because this is Phoenix's first use of unrestrained power. This use of power completely awakens Phoenix. Phoenix is a creature of desire, joy, and rage. Using that power is her desire, it gives her joy. And being full of rage, she uses it in a violent matter.

Xavier died because he's the one who wanted to "cage the beast". Phoenix didn't want to be caged.

Wolverine lives, because just because one person kills once, doesn't mean they automatically kill again everytime someone aggrivates them.

And she was violent and hostile towards him. Wrecklessly launching him across a room into a wall, and then proceeding to utterly destroy a door on your way out of the mansion isn't exactly rosey flowers and rainbows.

She was violent towards Wolverine but why did she not kill him? Why didnt she not just throw Scott against a tree instead of killing him? I'll admit i can see the motivation behind killing Xavier, but that was the only good part of the movie for me. I mean, why kill Scott straight away, but just hurt Logan, it just makes no sense at all.

It makes sense because it wouldn't avoid a battle. The military still came from behind, remeber? The United States has a much larger military than simply some troops on an island. Crumbling the building would not have guaranteed the deaths of those that Magneto needed dead. It would then only further complicate things when Magneto needed to clean up the rubble to get to those he needed to make sure were dead, make sure they were dead, end up doing the job personally (like Juggernaut went to do in the movie anyways), all while having to still fight off the reinforcements sent in by the military.

And who says Magneto didn't want this battle?

But it would have avoided a battle, Magneto could collapsed the building, then send Arclight to send shockwaves through it collapsing anything else still standing, or Juggernaut to simply plough through what was left of the building or simply convince Jean to go ape**** on it. The US troops didnt arrive until the end of the battle, Magneto could have been and gone by then and would have avoided losing any of his army.

And why WOULD Magneto want this battle, why put himself in the firing line of cure darts, and surely he knew the X-Men would arrive considering he knew Wolverine heard his speech. And he surely took into account that the humans might have learned to not use metal against him. And if he can smell the Wolverine's metal a mile away, why can he not sense the X-jet approaching and send it into the water or the cure building?

 

[The Guard]

Nope. I'm not kidding you. I don't accept Magneto not feeling sorry for his longtime friend being forced into becoming something he hated. What's so hard about understanding this?

It's hard to see you simply not getting the impact of this scene, and WHY he is acting like this. It is absolutely consistent with Magneto's character, and his actions in previous films and X3. Mystique has become a human. Magneto HATES humans. He is clearly torn when she is cured, but it is made clear that he no longer values her...because she is now human. The scene serves to show just how bigoted Magneto himself has become. He has become the thing he once hated.

Where was the regret and reverence Magneto was supposed to show Mystique after she prevented him from getting cured by getting cured?

What...the hell...are you talking about? Watch Ian McKellan's performance. Look at the anguish on his face. Hear his words. "It's a shame. She was so beautiful". There's the regret you speak of, right there. He would not show her any reverence, because he no longer values her now, simply because she's human. However, "She was so beautiful" shows reverence for who she was.

I'm not talking about his belief that mutants were superior. Of course that never changed. I'm talking about his inconsistent scheming and decision making in this film.

There's pretty much nothing inconsistent in the film about Magneto's character. Magneto didn't react to different situations the same as others because they were DIFFERENT situations. You don't react the same way to every situation, do you?

I don't know what movie you were watching but, I didn't see Jean fighting against the Phoenix force. If there was a fight scene in the movie between Jean and Phoenix on the astral plane then maybe I could by what you are saying but, for now I'm not buying it.

Fighting. As in struggling with herself. It's there. You obviously needed it to be more overt and in-your-face, but it's there in Famke's performance and in the story.

What the heck are you talking about? So now you are telling me that Magneto was not trying to manipulate Jean after seeing how confused and unstable she was after killing Xavier?

He didn't have to manipulate her. All he had to do was tell her the truth about how he felt about her powers. She did the rest, through her desire to be all powerful. It's possible he wanted to taking advantage of her power at some point, and he does appeal to her at the end of X3 as a last resort, but he doesn't ever truly manipulate her into anything. There's not a single part of the film where he actually asks her to do anything for him, or lies to her, or any of that nonsense.

The forest scene where Jean aims the needles at Magneto completely destroys this theory. Jean might have been unstable and confused but, she is a telepath and knew damn well that Magneto is an opportunist and was trying to use her when he could offer her nothing that she couldn't attain on her on.

She thinks Magneto might want to control her, which is, notice, what makes her angry. However, you must have missed the part where Magneto says "I want you to be what you are", and points out that Xavier limited her, and that they're all in the cure conflict together. He never asks her to do anything for him.

The problem with this reasoning is there is a pattern to every thing that happens. Physicists agree that even radom events have some order. I wanted to see a pattern to Jeans unstableness.

The pattern is that Jean Grey cannot control the immense power Dark Phoenix wields, and that she had control issues. It's pretty much that simple.

It was their intent to make me and the rest of their audience feel ackward?

YES! That is EXACTLY the intent of that scene. To make you go "What the hell is going on?"

If Jean is motivated to not be controlled then she wouldn't have joined forces with anyone because regardless of what side she would be on someone would be using her to do good or evil. Your argument incredibly weak.

So because she's all powerful, she would just go off alone? All-powerful people tend to need their egos stroked. People who want control badly often need to control others. Who is she going to control if she's off on her own? That, and the fact that she's clearly still looking for an anchor.

For starters he could have told Jean to kill all of the marines who were destroying the first wave of his army with the cure guns. Secondly he could have ordered her to take out Storm instead of watching Callisto fight it out again. Then he could have told her to kill leech. I just find it strange that Magneto went to great lengths to recruit the most powerful mutant on the planet and then does nothing with her except let her stand by his side like a zombie. I thought all of this was the result of lazy writing and bad filmmaking.

What you just proposed is also considered lazy writing. You turned Jean into a plot device, and destroyed any suspense the story could have had with that proposal. It's called Deux Ex Machina. Perhaps you're familiar with it?
And you continue to miss the point that Magneto wasn't going to ORDER Jean to do anything. Nor COULD he have. Or did you miss that part of the movie?

Where did you get the random idea from? Beast having a position in congress suggests there were many mutants who wanted peace between humans and mutants.

Didn't you just tell me that other mutants would stand against Magneto? Were they going to stand against him peacefully?

These same mutants could easily band together and try to stop anyone who would disrupt this peace.

And they would likely fail miserably against the likes of Magneto, Phoenix, Callisto, Juggernaut and Pyro, and an army of superpowered mutants.

That makes sense and there is nothing random about it. This is a simple concept. An example would be in the middle east where there are muslims who have sided with the jews in Isreal against terrorist muslims because the muslim terrorists are destroying the peace between the jews and the muslims who want to do business with them.

And you think there's some all-powerful mutant who is going to stop (once again) Magneto, Phoenix, Callisto, Juggernaut, Pyro, and a Brotherhood of mutants? It's really fairly irrelevant, because this movie is about the X-Men.

After hearing about the godlike being doing nothing for Magneto in action I doubt that any of the anti-terrorist mutants would be scared. Some of them figured they might be able to get her to change sides. As for the brotherhood, I doubt that a bunch of 50 mutants whose mutantion is looking weird would put a scare into other more powerful mutants who wanted to live in peace and harmony with humans.

Someone else beat me to the nuke example, but I'll repeat it. Just because she didn't unleash her power does not mean she didn't have it. Nuclear weapons, and the fear they produce, is a prime example of the kind of deterrence Jean would serve as to those who opposed Magneto.

Regardless of how you spin this Magneto's decision to not cause any of the buidlings to crumble, thereby, avoiding a battle that could destroy his his army does not make sense.

You really don't understand storytelling, do you? Storytelling is not always having characters doing what is easiest, or the most logical. It is having characters do what produces the most interesting interaction, and the most suspense and emotion.

So we see 10 out of 100 of Magneto's mutants doing what you said in a few short scenes. I do remember seeing scenes of Beast, Collosus, Kitty, and Iceman fighting mutiple mutants with none of the powers you mentioned. Wolverine had one scene where he fights a mutant with one useful power but, he had multiple ones with powerless mutants. What's hillarious is considering the size of Magneto's army the X-Men still should have gotten their asses kicked.

You don't know what mutants had what powers. Just because you don't see them used against the X-Men doesn't mean they didn't have any. Why should the X-Men have got their asses kicked? The X-Men were fighting untrained mutants, and the X-Men were trained, and had greater powers in most cases.

multiple personality that killed with little to no pattern or clear motivation
I figured it out 5 months ago. The writers and filmmakers wanted the audience to believe the Jean they created had clear motivations that could be understood but, they were too lazy to give her character a meaningful role in this film.

Yes, but there is a pattern to WHY her power goes out of control. The key words here are "power" and "control". You still don't get it. Phoenix has very clear motivations. Just not very deep ones. But then, she never did.
This all makes sense. Jeans powers went out of control to the extent of Cyclops and Xavier dying. But, not out of control to the extent of killing Magneto, Wolverine and Storm.

Interesting except I thought the movie didn't have any clear message since we truely don't know if the cure is permanent or not after the final scene. All of this makes the end result of Rogue's decision to take the cure confusing. So the message of the film should be something confusing like "This is how you could handle trying to be different and trying to assimilate but, all of this may be a waste of time." Or "you can try to cure physical differences or differences in idealogy but, all of this may be a waste of time." That's my interepretation of these poorly contrived themes.

The movie doesn't have any clear message. If you think those are poor messages/themes, that's your issue. The message has many sides, just like the issue of assimilation.

 

[The Guard]

Magneto did not believe in mutant / human co-existence. He felt that mutants were superior to humans. He is, for all intents and purposes, a racist. It's like Hitler, with the blonde haired, blue eyed, super human Arian race that he believed in.

Mystique was no longer that. She was no longer part of the cause. She was now inferior.

What's so hard about understanding this?

I have no idea. It's baffling.

Wolverine lives, because just because one person kills once, doesn't mean they automatically kill again everytime someone aggrivates them.

Wolverine lives because he touched Jean Grey, inside Dark Phoenix, and she fought Phoenix for his survival.

Jean is all powerful, yes. But she has someone in Magneto who encourages her, supports her, and has the same goal as she does... sounds pretty logical to me.

Yup.

Jean wasn't going to be controlled. She'd do something when she felt good and ready. She wouldn't do something because Magneto said so.

Exactly.

This movie is called "X-Men"

Not "Random Mutants Who Believe In Peace and Co-Existence And Band Together To Fight Magneto"

"Who would have gotten their asses handed to them in a heartbeat".

It makes sense because it wouldn't avoid a battle. The military still came from behind, remeber? The United States has a much larger military than simply some troops on an island. Crumbling the building would not have guaranteed the deaths of those that Magneto needed dead. It would then only further complicate things when Magneto needed to clean up the rubble to get to those he needed to make sure were dead, make sure they were dead, end up doing the job personally (like Juggernaut went to do in the movie anyways), all while having to still fight off the reinforcements sent in by the military.

Heh. In all seriousness, having Juggernaut go kill Leech was the single most efficient way to get the job done. And the most interesting, storywise, as it allowed for some suspense, and for the Kitty/Juggernaut sequence.

Xavier wanted to cage her. She lashed out on Wolverine when he suggested Xavier being able to cage her. She toyed with Magneto because she thought he wanted to control her. She went totally insane on Alcatraz when countless cure darts were fired in her direction, and she began destroying the entire island. She wasn't picking and choosing who died. Many people didn't get out. The X-Men did.

There's another explanation when people don't seem to grasp. Dark Phoenix did kill a bunch of army men (which was not random), but afterward, she mostly began destroying things around the cure facility when she went nova (the cure facility, the --X-jet, which was on the cure facility), and Quills and Psylocke were right outside it. The army men who escaped didn't get dematerizalized. The ones who stayed near the facility did. The X-Men, who were not near the facility at that point, did not get killed. I'll put it in bold now. ANYONE NEAR THE CURE FACILITY DIED WHEN PHOENIX WENT NOVA. ANYONE WHO WASN'T...DIDN'T. HMM...

The X-Men also didn't die because it's an X-Men movie. It's like whining about how a flaming chunk of ceiling didn't fall on Bruce in the monastary during BATMAN BEGINS. It requires a suspension of disbelief, and an understanding of storytelling.

The only death that doesn't fall into that category is Cyclops. And I will admit to you that was totally a "we're writting this character out" death.

Yes, it was them writing him out. However, Cyclops death can be explained in that, upon rising, Jean suddenly began to desire and use immense power which she couldn't control. The power went out of control, and so did she. This was the birth of Dark Phoenix. Everytime her power goes out of control in X-MEN: THE LAST STAND, something about "control" is happening. Cyclops death is no different. Only in this case, she was trying to control both him, AND her immense power. She couldn't.

As is noted by Penn in his screenwriter interview, Hayter and Singer are the one’s who wanted to go with the Dark Phoenix Saga, and in the X2 dvd commentary, Hayter presents his idea of Jean using Cyclops’ blasts to destroy herself rather than the large gun that she uses in the comic books. Penn incorporated various elements of God Loves, Man Kills into his draft, including sentinels. It seems clear that Singer was very interested in incorporating sentinels as well, as he was involved in developing their designs before pre-production even began on X2. Both ideas were cut by Fox. The original concept called for the sentinels to raid the mansion, etc. The sentinels were never intended to only be used to handle Cerebro. As is noted, they were cut little by little due to budgetary constraints until there was room for only one, at which point they decided to cut it out completely because it was essentially considered to be a rather lame inclusion. The sentinels were subsequently replaced with soldiers.

It's not as simple as "This is what Singer wanted to do, FOX cut these ideas out of the final product". What Penn doesn't say often is that these are early, early ideas for X2. When X2 as we know it began to be written, these ideas were long gone. The only idea that might have made it into X2 by this point was Sentinels raising the mansion (which was never going to happen with the budget) and Sentinels opening Cerebro's door.

I’m not quick to solely credit Singer with any of these ideas, as both Hayter and Penn are the ones who developed the various scripts. Again, in Penn’s scriptwriter interview, he notes that Singer looked at both his and Hayter’s drafts and found good ideas in both. This looks to be a jumble of The God Loves, Man Kills portions of Penn’s draft as well as the elements of the Dark Phoenix Saga they wanted to include. Very little has been said regarding these portions of the script drafts and why they did or didn’t come to be.

But what should become obvious is that Singer didn't like either approach, and came up with his own, with his own writers.

Whats so hard to understand is how he can immediatly turn on someone who was a long time friend and confidant. Throughout all 3 movies, no one was more loyal to Magneto than Mystique, she broke him out of prison in 2, saved his life in 3, yet Magneto just dismisses her as soon as she is cured, sorry i dont buy it.

That's the point. It's a shocking moment. Seeing him turn on her because she is human should make you wonder.

Hardly any struggle between Jean and The Phoenix is shown in the movie other than the lab scene. Jean never spoke a word for the second half of the movie up until she said "Save me" to Wolverine. Someone who doesnt speak for half a movie could easily be considered a mute. You said Jean didnt want to fight yet Pheonix didnt want to leave, were we shown this at all? No, we werent she just stayed in the background standing in exactly the same position throughout the whole final battle. A quick scene of Jean going to walk off and then dragging herself back telekinetically WOULD have shown a conflict. But no, poor story telling prevailed.

Jean walks off...and drags herself back? Lame.

I don't think you're watching Famke Janssen's performance very closely.

You say why be alone? Why be with Magneto? Someone who had tried to kill her and the ones she loves multiple times in the past (probably more so than even the movies showed us).

Magneto never tries to kill the X-Men in either X-MEN or X2. Just Rogue. You can't just assume he did because you want to.

Magneto was also giving Jean what could be considered orders at her house.

He was clearly offering her a place to go. Not ordering her to come with him.

WHY does she choose to go with him and fight his war, WHY? We are never told, shown or anything.

She doesn't. Which is why she doesn't fight in his war. She only cares about herself, and her power.

And dont give me the bull**** about feeding her ego, she is a beautiful woman and the most powerful mutant on the planet, there are plenty of people out there who would have fed her ego.

Jesus tapdancing Christ...someone explain this to him...

Also she is telepathic, cant she read the minds of the multiple brotherhood members who dont want her to be there, or Magneto's mind for that matter who just sees her as a weapon?

Yes, but it feeds her EGO to have an element of CONTROL over them, so she'd stay. We can keep going round and round in "but what about this aspect" circles until you have no more arguments, but that doesn't change the fact that explanations can easily be found (or are seen) for Jean'sbehavior, even when you try to question specifics of her psychological state in the film. How do you know Magneto just sees her as a weapon? For all you know, he MEANS what he tells her about her being a goddess, and the next stage in evolution. I'm inclined to believe he meant every word of it. Because why wouldn't he?

She was violent towards Wolverine but why did she not kill him?

In the mansion, Dark Phoenix did something to Wolverine that WOULD kill most men. At Alkali, she did something to him that WOULD kill most men. But it's obvious at the end that Dark Phoenix didn't kill Wolverine because Jean Grey was still alive somewhere inside her, and was fighting Dark Phoenix.

Why didnt she not just throw Scott against a tree instead of killing him?

Because Scott was being written out. If he's thrown against a tree, and it doesn't kill him, then you have to explain where he went. And besides, Dark Phoenix threw Wolverine against a wall and then Wolverine got thrown against a three later on. Talk about redundant writing if we saw the same happen to Scott.

I'll admit i can see the motivation behind killing Xavier, but that was the only good part of the movie for me. I mean, why kill Scott straight away, but just hurt Logan, it just makes no sense at all.

Then think about it harder. Hint: POWER and CONTROL.

But it would have avoided a battle, Magneto could collapsed the building, then send Arclight to send shockwaves through it collapsing anything else still standing, or Juggernaut to simply plough through what was left of the building or simply convince Jean to go ape**** on it. The US troops didnt arrive until the end of the battle, Magneto could have been and gone by then and would have avoided losing any of his army.

Could have, could have, could have...
In BATMAN BEGINS, Batman COULD HAVE done a lot of things to stop Ra's Al Ghul before his master plan went into effect, writingwise, but he didn't. Why? Because it makes the story more interesting. You want Magneto to just do what's readily apparent and easiest? Fair enough. Hey, while we're at it, let's just remove any aspect of fun and suspense and emotion from the story entirely! It's becoming apparent that you don't understand how storytelling is structured. Please stop trying to tell people how stories should be told.

And why WOULD Magneto want this battle, why put himself in the firing line of cure darts, and surely he knew the X-Men would arrive considering he knew Wolverine heard his speech. And he surely took into account that the humans might have learned to not use metal against him. And if he can smell the Wolverine's metal a mile away, why can he not sense the X-jet approaching and send it into the water or the cure building?

Maybe Magneto was too tired to pull the X-jet out of the skies, having, you know, just moved an entire bridge.
Why wouldn't he do these things? Because it doesn't SERVE THE STORY to have him do those things. It makes the story less interesting when the heroes are murdered when they should be triumphantly arriving at the final battle Why show ANY suspense or drama in a film if a character could concievably do something to better his odds? Learn to suspend your disbelief. And learn how storytelling works. Seriously, you're sitting here going "Why didn't Magneto just drown the X-Men in an X-Men film".

 

[BMM]

It's not as simple as "This is what Singer wanted to do, FOX cut these ideas out of the final product". What Penn doesn't say often is that these are early, early ideas for X2. When X2 as we know it began to be written, these ideas were long gone. The only idea that might have made it into X2 by this point was Sentinels raising the mansion (which was never going to happen with the budget) and Sentinels opening Cerebro's door.

Regardless of which draft these ideas were in, the point of the debate was whether the creative team would consider putting sentinels into an X-Men film, in which case, whether it be through Dyas’ designs, Penn’s drafts, Singer’s wanting to put them in the movie, their digital construction, etc., it seems pretty clear that the sentinels were gradually scrapped over the course of X2’s development because of budgetary constraints and not that the creative team just didn’t want to put sentinels in an X-Men movie.

But what should become obvious is that Singer didn't like either approach, and came up with his own, with his own writers.

I think it’s quite obvious that, as you noted, they didn’t have the proper funding to include sentinels in the movie. Thus, if they didn’t have the proper funding to include sentinels in the movie, this scene obviously wasn’t able to happen. I don’t think it’s obvious that Singer came up with his own idea simply on the basis that he didn’t like this one, which suggests that this is the reason why sentinels weren’t in the movie as originally intended. With the exception of your proposition, I’ve yet to hear or read anything that remotely implies that sentinels weren’t in the movie due to the momentary whimsy of Bryan Singer.

 

[The Guard]

I don't believe I ever implied that. I'm just saying, when the chips are down, and budget becomes an issue, compare Singer's idea for "budget Sentinels" to Ratner's.

 

[Dan33977]

I think both sides are being extremely ridiculous and argumentative here. Regardless, I'm a little shocked that TheGuard is actually defending X-MEN: THE LAST STAND because I usually am in agreement with his views. Not that I didn't like the movie—I did, but X-MEN and X2 are far superior and I don't think I'd be caught dead defending the third movie. The idea of Bryan Singer's X3 does intrigue me, though...

 

[LastSunrise1981]

I think both sides are being extremely ridiculous and argumentative here. Regardless, I'm a little shocked that TheGuard is actually defending X-MEN: THE LAST STAND because I usually am in agreement with his views. Not that I didn't like the movie—I did, but X-MEN and X2 are far superior and I don't think I'd be caught dead defending the third movie. The idea of Bryan Singer's X3 does intrigue me, though...

Would you agree with his statement of "Batman and Robin has better and more intelligent dialogue than Batman Begins?"

I find it hilarious that those who LOVE X3 feel the need to be insulted when someone says something negative about it.