Chapter 42 - “Villains” – Discussion Thread 11/10/08

[Captain_BluTac]

My only Issue with this episode was the Sylar storyline it didn't make sense, these events from the way they set it up took place after Sylar killed that guy who asked him for help in season 1 so when did he have time to meet Elle in that time frame, I know they had other story lines going on but that seemed like it was shoe horned in there, and then if they knew each other they sure didn't act like it when Sylar was about to scalp her at the company when knox and them escaped, maybe I need to watch that epsiode again but to me it seemed like the Sylar thing was forced, I like the fact that they are trying to add depth to Sylar but it seems like they don't know what direction to take.

I personally think Sylar's story in particular had been planned for a while and even if it wasn't at least it clears up a potential plot hole, because in the first few episodes we saw Sylar's "forgive me" room and then next we saw him hew was a calculating sociopathic psycho killer, which lead to the question what could lead a man to such a transition, with this storyline we got an answer in the shape of Elle.

 

[chaseter]

I personally think Sylar's story in particular had been planned for a while and even if it wasn't at least it clears up a potential plot hole, because in the first few episodes we saw Sylar's "forgive me" room and then next we saw him hew was a calculating sociopathic psycho killer, which lead to the question what could lead a man to such a transition, with this storyline we got an answer in the shape of Elle.

Agreed.

 

[GL1]

I read complaints in here all the time from the less "passionate" about it, and believe or not, many times I agree with them. I just find it annoying when someone disagrees with the more rabid "criticize for the sake of being critical" people in here, or someone else presents an alternate take on the matter, they almost take it personally, as if by giving another side or view to the issue being discussed, they are being given some kind of personal affront. THAT'S when it gets annoying. THAT'S when it turns from a discussion about the episode, and turns into a "who can humiliate the show and those who disagree with us" competition.

I don't mind it. Just keep it in the gripes thread where that shat belongs. Have you EVER seen me post in there?

And all this by a mod, no less.

Trust me, I have questions about certain things about the show that even the Negatives in here haven't touched on yet. Then, I realize this is just a TV show, and I allow it to take me where it wants to take me. If I don't like it when I get there, then I'll get off, just as I did with Smallville. Complaining about the "trip" every step of the way just kills and makes you overlook whatever else there is that might be redeeming about the show.

I work with deep logic everyday. I'm ok with leaving some logic behind, when it comes to my entertainment. Sometimes, it just isn't supposed to be. That is, as long as it doesn't get ridiculous.

Imagine TV when you were a kid. Can you imagine being able to enjoy what you enjoyed then, if you had the same kind of critical bent Matt and others like him have had for Heroes?

I guess when I watch TV, I turn into that kid again. Think what you will of it, but isn't that the point? If you can't relax and leave the world behind when you sit in front of a show, then don't. Simple.

It all still sounds bit judgmental. Who is doing anything just to humiliate anyone? Who determines where complaints belong? I started the gripes thread when many posters were unwilling to believe that Heroes had dropped in quality. Now, things are a bit different, and I don't see why pointing out the failings of a show that is decreasing in quality should be saved for a certain area anymore.

I personally expect more from shows which offer it. When a show offers me both stimulation of my imaginative inner child as well as stimulation of my cerebral adult critical thinking skills, as only Heroes has ever done, I jump on it, and I look forward to it every week. I didn't have to 'leave the world behind'... I had a fusion of escapism and meaningful cerebral exercise. I didn't have to leave logic behind before, and now I do. Many of the things that were logical and made sense and were deep are now shallow, illogical, plot hole ridden and new plot hole-making retcons seem to appear each and every week.

I used to watch power rangers, anytime the premise caught my eye... watched Operation Overdrive, for instance. I turned into a kid for that because that's all it ever offered me. It's supposed to be for kids.

Heroes was supposed to be more than that... it WAS more than that. Now its not. That's lamentable, and even though I'm adjusting to the fact that Heroes is now shallow 'turn your brain off' entertainment, it still reminds me of how beautiful it used to be every week as it tears itself down.

 

[chaseter]

It seems that this place is a unique beast. People claim to hate this show, say they don't watch it, say that is sucks now, yet they come in here and spend a lot of their time doing so. What other instance in life does this relate to? You don't get a great pie at a restaurant, go back the second time and it sucks, then go back again and it sucks yet you stay in the restaurant and complain to other patrons about how much the pie sucks and how it was great that one time. It makes no sense.

 

[Maximus One]

It seems that this place is a unique beast. People claim to hate this show, say they don't watch it, say that is sucks now, yet they come in here and spend a lot of their time doing so. What other instance in life does this relate to? You don't get a great pie at a restaurant, go back the second time and it sucks, then go back again and it sucks yet you stay in the restaurant and complain to other patrons about how much the pie sucks and how it was great that one time. It makes no sense.

Hahahaha Exactly!!

 

[Maximus One]

Ok i just watched this ep and i loved it. I dont care what people say I still love this show despite its flaws and will watch till the end

 

[Frodo]

Well I'll put in my two cents for what it's worth. While I don't think think this season was as bad as the last it still feels like alot of the magic has gone. I have my own explanations as to why I think there's a growing disatisfaction but what I don't like someone else may love. I do think that retconning this early in a show run is bad news.

As for Sylar, I think he was at his best in season one . I'm old school. I like the evil Sylar . A guy a who's unpredictable , creepy, and devoid of empthy. While I like the concept of the hunger but I'm really not digging the whole nice guy struggling with his dark side thing. Now I would watch Kirsten Bell selling soap but I felt her character has been tamed way to much. She was one of the few things I liked about season two.

Now I don't hate the show , I just want it to return to the quality of season one. I complain about the show because I want it to change and to continue to tell great stories. The problems can be solved imo but I think it's gonna take scaling back as opposed to throwing in even more characters into the pot.

 

[blksuperman2]

I really enjoyed this episode. I'm really surprised that so many people dislike this season of Heroes. Sure it's not as good as season 1 but it's still very interesting.

They couldn't very well have Sylar be the main crazed villian that he was in season 1 and I like the inventative approach they're taking.

 

[Frodo]

I personally think after season 1 that Sylar shouldn't be in every single episode but return every once and a while . I think if anything they've used him too much but that's just me.

 

[Frank]

I wonder why Usutu didn't see Arthur coming to kill him. He saw Hiro twice.

 

[chaseter]

I wonder why Usutu didn't see Arthur coming to kill him. He saw Hiro twice.

Maybe it was his destiny to die by Arthur? Good question though. He did leave Ando and Hiro in there so he went outside for a reason.

 

[GL1]

I personally think Sylar's story in particular had been planned for a while and even if it wasn't at least it clears up a potential plot hole, because in the first few episodes we saw Sylar's "forgive me" room and then next we saw him hew was a calculating sociopathic psycho killer, which lead to the question what could lead a man to such a transition, with this storyline we got an answer in the shape of Elle.

Then it was really bad planning. They did work in the 'forgive me' angle, which is more of a religious apology type thing rather than something you say to a random customer. But they didn't plan Elle to be empathic, or else she would not have been a remorseless psychopath in S2. They didn't plan for Sylar to be just getting started around epi 1 of S1, or else they wouldn't have had him already have killed 5+ people before the season started.

It was an explanation, regardless of the quality, and it had a connection to S1, but it was not 'planned out' by anyone who cared about making sense.

Ok i just watched this ep and i loved it. I dont care what people say I still love this show despite its flaws and will watch till the end

I'll probably watch it to the end to, and I still enjoy it at times, despite its flaws. I don't have to cover my ears though, or ignore the flaws.

I wonder why Usutu didn't see Arthur coming to kill him. He saw Hiro twice.

They don't care. Why bother trying to explain something the writer's don't care about. Label this among Kaitlin and "Pandora's Box."

It seems that this place is a unique beast. People claim to hate this show, say they don't watch it, say that is sucks now, yet they come in here and spend a lot of their time doing so.

Who says this?

Perhaps you didn't love the show as much, or as deeply as I did, so a decrease in quality and depth will not affect you like it does me.

Tell me about the symbol.
Tell me about Geitelman.
Tell me about D.L.'s lost storyline.
Tell me about Charles Deveaux's Power
Tell me about why Sylar went to Kirby Plaza.
Tell me how Isaac's power works.
Tell me why the show is called "Heroes"

Your calm acceptance of S3, suggests, to me, that you didn't "get" S1 on a level deeper than S3 is. You think it was just 'pie.' S1 was an fully conceived emotional, intellectual and almost spiritual experience. S3 is just a show. If you don't get that, then none of the gripes will make any sense to you.

But you've heard this all before, haven't you? So why do you insist on taking potshots at those who are dissatisfied with this season of Heroes?

 

[SuperT]

Tell me about the symbol.

That was already explained. It's two Japanese symbols put together that means "Godsend" or "Great Power." Nathan also told us last season it was the symbol that Arthur used for his law firm.

Tell me about Geitelman.
Tell me about D.L.'s lost storyline.

Did you read the graphic novels from season one? D.L. and especially Hana's history and continuing story were all told there.

Tell me how Isaac's power works.

o_0

 

[Magenta666]

Then it was really bad planning. They did work in the 'forgive me' angle, which is more of a religious apology type thing rather than something you say to a random customer. But they didn't plan Elle to be empathic, or else she would not have been a remorseless psychopath in S2. They didn't plan for Sylar to be just getting started around epi 1 of S1, or else they wouldn't have had him already have killed 5+ people before the season started.

It was an explanation, regardless of the quality, and it had a connection to S1, but it was not 'planned out' by anyone who cared about making sense.



I'll probably watch it to the end to, and I still enjoy it at times, despite its flaws. I don't have to cover my ears though, or ignore the flaws.



They don't care. Why bother trying to explain something the writer's don't care about. Label this among Kaitlin and "Pandora's Box."



Who says this?

Perhaps you didn't love the show as much, or as deeply as I did, so a decrease in quality and depth will not affect you like it does me.

Tell me about the symbol.
Tell me about Geitelman.
Tell me about D.L.'s lost storyline.
Tell me about Charles Deveaux's Power
Tell me about why Sylar went to Kirby Plaza.
Tell me how Isaac's power works.
Tell me why the show is called "Heroes"

Your calm acceptance of S3, suggests, to me, that you didn't "get" S1 on a level deeper than S3 is. You think it was just 'pie.' S1 was an fully conceived emotional, intellectual and almost spiritual experience. S3 is just a show. If you don't get that, then none of the gripes will make any sense to you.

But you've heard this all before, haven't you? So why do you insist on taking potshots at those who are dissatisfied with this season of Heroes?

i agree with much about what your saying, especially the last episode, which i loved (the petrellis line) and hated at the same time (sylars line)

if anything, they should have pushed when this whole thing happened back a bit, not the first ep of s1 it didnt fit correctly

and i agree, i dont understand why they are just allowed to change how the characters are, especially sylar and elle, why do we need to have bleeding heart villains?

but i second that whole "watching the show until the end" thing...which by the looks of it...may be very soon

 

[Primal Slayer]

Well one thing is for sure, they need to introduce a new main villan to take over Sylars previous role.

 

[shadowdog]

there will be a new villain, if you've read any of the spoiler sections in this forum you'd know....

Spoiler

his name is the Hunter and he will be chasing the heroes all over the place in volume 4 (The second half of this season)

 

[Neptune]

Well I'll put in my two cents for what it's worth. While I don't think think this season was as bad as the last it still feels like alot of the magic has gone. I have my own explanations as to why I think there's a growing disatisfaction but what I don't like someone else may love. I do think that retconning this early in a show run is bad news.

As for Sylar, I think he was at his best in season one . I'm old school. I like the evil Sylar . A guy a who's unpredictable , creepy, and devoid of empthy. While I like the concept of the hunger but I'm really not digging the whole nice guy struggling with his dark side thing. Now I would watch Kirsten Bell selling soap but I felt her character has been tamed way to much. She was one of the few things I liked about season two.

Now I don't hate the show , I just want it to return to the quality of season one. I complain about the show because I want it to change and to continue to tell great stories. The problems can be solved imo but I think it's gonna take scaling back as opposed to throwing in even more characters into the pot.

I totally agree. Except for the hunger, that's just lame. I don't hate season 3 but i don't think it's better than season 2. There's just more action. They made a huge mistake by making Sylar a Petrelli and a victim of his powers. And Elle has been tamed way too much indeed. She was already psycho, with a hint of good but still psycho. Now her dad was killed, she lost her job and her powers are completely uncrontrolable. She should be pissed the F off.

 

[Nitehawk013]

Usutu probably didn't see Aurthur coming for a simple reason. His powers prolly are not on every second of the day. He doesn't see everything that is about to happen. He gets visions of certain things. Much like Isaac didn't see every single thing, only certain things.

As for Sylar and Elle...I thought it was a great story. Sylar had a heart. Elle broke it. People have become heartless killers for the same reason countless times. In this case, Sylar had not only a mother constantly harping on being "special" but now a girl he was falling for was all caught up in being "special" and betrayed him. So he snaps and decides he'll steal what makes others special so he is the only one who is special. And the HUnger just pushes him all the more. No more being remorseful (until this season). He just kills.

Further, in S1 it was the FBI and Parkman who didn't know who Sylar really was if I recall. I don't recall HRG not knowing about Sylar. They were looking for him. I don't have the S1 dvds so I can't rewatch it yet.

 

[Magenta666]

Usutu probably didn't see Aurthur coming for a simple reason. His powers prolly are not on every second of the day. He doesn't see everything that is about to happen. He gets visions of certain things. Much like Isaac didn't see every single thing, only certain things.

As for Sylar and Elle...I thought it was a great story. Sylar had a heart. Elle broke it. People have become heartless killers for the same reason countless times. In this case, Sylar had not only a mother constantly harping on being "special" but now a girl he was falling for was all caught up in being "special" and betrayed him. So he snaps and decides he'll steal what makes others special so he is the only one who is special. And the HUnger just pushes him all the more. No more being remorseful (until this season). He just kills.

Further, in S1 it was the FBI and Parkman who didn't know who Sylar really was if I recall. I don't recall HRG not knowing about Sylar. They were looking for him. I don't have the S1 dvds so I can't rewatch it yet.

you explain it better than the show did....and thats the issue

still, Elles character was changed, you have to admit that

 

[SuperT]

Further, in S1 it was the FBI and Parkman who didn't know who Sylar really was if I recall. I don't recall HRG not knowing about Sylar. They were looking for him. I don't have the S1 dvds so I can't rewatch it yet.

No you're right. It was Parkman and the FBI plus everyone else that didn't know who Sylar was.

Noah and The Company already knew of him and were actively looking for him.

 

[GL1]

That was already explained. It's two Japanese symbols put together that means "Godsend" or "Great Power." Nathan also told us last season it was the symbol that Arthur used for his law firm.

Does that strike you as a little bit interesting? That these two apparently unrelated things have the exact same symbol??? That it should be the same symbol that appears when Nikki's "Multiple Personality Disorder" activates? Why is that?

The symbol, its meaning and relevance are a perfect example of some depth to the show that is gone, now. Some people don't miss it - maybe never noticed it - but I certainly do.

Did you read the graphic novels from season one? D.L. and especially Hana's history and continuing story were all told there.

Of course I did. I also watched the deleted scenes from Season 1, which had the lost D.L. storyline. I wasn't asking questions, far from it. Notice the lack of question marks.

 

[Nitehawk013]

Elle is different, but we don't know everything that has happened to her from then til now.

She was just used to feed an innocent man to Sylar. Her dad shows no affection at all. He just barks orders and demeans her. The only way she gets approval is by following orders to the letter. Who knows what she has done and seen that may have changed her. And it really doesn't take all that long to change someone.

 

[Neptune]

Elle is different, but we don't know everything that has happened to her from then til now.

She was just used to feed an innocent man to Sylar. Her dad shows no affection at all. He just barks orders and demeans her. The only way she gets approval is by following orders to the letter. Who knows what she has done and seen that may have changed her. And it really doesn't take all that long to change someone.

That is exactly why she was out of character. Those are some of the things that made her a sociopath. She was way too nice and sympathetic in this episode.

 

[SuperT]

That is exactly why she was out of character. Those are some of the things that made her a sociopath. She was way too nice and sympathetic in this episode.

This episode was also a year ago....

 

[chaseter]

Perhaps you didn't love the show as much, or as deeply as I did, so a decrease in quality and depth will not affect you like it does me.

Tell me about the symbol.
Tell me about Geitelman.
Tell me about D.L.'s lost storyline.
Tell me about Charles Deveaux's Power
Tell me about why Sylar went to Kirby Plaza.
Tell me how Isaac's power works.
Tell me why the show is called "Heroes"

Your calm acceptance of S3, suggests, to me, that you didn't "get" S1 on a level deeper than S3 is. You think it was just 'pie.' S1 was an fully conceived emotional, intellectual and almost spiritual experience. S3 is just a show. If you don't get that, then none of the gripes will make any sense to you.

But you've heard this all before, haven't you? So why do you insist on taking potshots at those who are dissatisfied with this season of Heroes?

I hope it is nice and cozy up there on your pedestal. Did I not say S3 was dumbed down more than S1 in another thread? Did I not say I hate clone story lines? Did I not address my concerns that Mohinder is now pointless? Please ****. Your elitist attitude is annoying, it has gotten old, and it is pointless. If you want to make a difference for this show that you loved and had an emotional and physical experience with 2 years ago...do something about it. Go and make a difference instead of just complaining to the patrons about how your pie was once great

I secondly don't need to have a pissing contest with you concerning who loved S1 more. How ridiculously idiotic. "If you really loved the show as much as I did...answer these questions then."