Arrow Dinah Laurel Lance/Katie Cassidy Thread - Part 4

[Slade W]

Personally, in this context (IF it's even true), yes it does.

It just continues the poor treatment of the character who was randomly chosen to be killed off because the producers had written themselves into a corner. And who then, despite finally getting some interesting development, had a death bed speech which was all about revealing that she was secretly still in love with Oliver, encouraging Oliver to pursue Felicity, revealing that becoming the Black Canary had more to do with wanting to be close to Oliver than honouring her deceased sister and finally pleading with Oliver to find a replacement Black Canary so that part of her would always remain by Oliver's side.

And then there is that ugly-azz statue! What an insult to the lovely Katie Cassidy!

Maybe the writers and producers really are just that tone deaf?

I am a big fan of Laurel too (she is my second favourite Team Arrow character ever after Oliver and that he been the case since season 1), and her death was one of the most stupid, nonsensical things I have ever seen on TV. It should have been Quentin, as he would have made sense. I do not consider the Black Siren insults to be even comparable to that death. A villain insulting heroes is par for the course. A villain insulting her E1 counterpoint by calling her weak for dying makes sense. I agree though, that her propping up Olicity before dying was pitiful and should not have happened.

She never revealed that becoming BC had more to do with wanting to be close to Oliver. She said that she liked being out there with "all of you guys" because it made her feel "alive". Show me a quote that proves what you are claiming. Since "Canaries", it was established that she was not just out there for Sara.

I don't see what is wrong with her wanting a new BC either, unless you do not like the idea of her wanting another person out there endangering themselves with Oliver. For whatever reason, on this show trusting people to become vigilantes and going out and risking their lives is treated as a good thing, mainly because you are willing to trust people, which in the Arrowverse is so important, no matter how risky. Do not ask me why, I do not know. It was also supposed to be a good thing when Oliver revealed his identity to the newbies shortly after he met them this season too and when he did not know for sure if they could be trusted, because once again, showing trust in almost every situation in this show is good, even when it is nonsensical and in real life would be considered utter stupidity.

The statue does not look good, but there is nothing disrespectful about it. There were good intentions behind it. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume "What an insult to the lovely Katie Cassidy!" is a joke, otherwise you are being very dramatic.

The writers and producers probably are tone deaf, but I don't think that has anything to do with the fact that nothing less than bringing Laurel back and probably making her as important as Oliver will get negative reactions from some loud Laurel fans. Like Felicity's fans, they are taking offence to every little thing ATM, based on what I have seen on Twitter. Laurel fans have more reason to be upset, but it doesn't mean that everything that is done or said is disrespectful or worth getting upset or annoyed about.

It should be said that Laurels death has had a big impact and has made Oliver more willing to kill than he was before. ATM, it does not just seem to be in desperate situations or very high level threats like Darhk and Ra's like it was the last two seasons.

 

[Loki882]

Well the person just spoiled the entire episode so...

Spoiler

Black Siren is posing as Earth 1 Laurel because Prometheus threatened her if she didnt go after TA. The episode ends with a sonic scream by the new girl

Spoiler

And she should be terrified of Prometheus that much because? She could destroy him in like two seconds.

 

[Slade W]

Oliver, who is as good a hero as anyone in this Arrow universe, has not being able to get to Prometheus or stop him. Why should a villain of the week, or at best, a recurring villain, be able to?

 

[haephestus]

It should be said that Laurels death has had a big impact and has made Oliver more willing to kill than he was before. ATM, it does not just seem to be in desperate situations or very high level threats like Darhk and Ra's like it was the last two seasons.

Shortened for brevity, not out of disrespect.

Agree to disagree?

And yes, it was a joke. But, it's still an ugly statue.

 

[Loki882]

I am a big fan of Laurel too (she is my second favourite Team Arrow character ever after Oliver and that he been the case since season 1), and her death was one of the most stupid, nonsensical things I have ever seen on TV. It should have been Quentin, as he would have made sense. I do not consider the Black Siren insults to be even comparable to that death. A villain insulting heroes is par for the course. A villain insulting her E1 counterpoint by calling her weak for dying makes sense. I agree though, that her propping up Olicity before dying was pitiful and should not have happened.

She never revealed that becoming BC had more to do with wanting to be close to Oliver. She said that she liked being out there with "all of you guys" because it made her feel "alive". Show me a quote that proves what you are claiming. Since "Canaries", it was established that she was not just out there for Sara.

I don't see what is wrong with her wanting a new BC either, unless you do not like the idea of her wanting another person out there endangering themselves with Oliver. For whatever reason, on this show trusting people to become vigilantes and going out and risking their lives is treated as a good thing, mainly because you are willing to trust people, which in the Arrowverse is so important, no matter how risky. Do not ask me why, I do not know. It was also supposed to be a good thing when Oliver revealed his identity to the newbies shortly after he met them this season too and when he did not know for sure if they could be trusted, because once again, showing trust in almost every situation in this show is good, even when it is nonsensical and in real life would be considered utter stupidity.

The statue does not look good, but there is nothing disrespectful about it. There were good intentions behind it. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume "What an insult to the lovely Katie Cassidy!" is a joke, otherwise you are being very dramatic.

The writers and producers probably are tone deaf, but I don't think that has anything to do with the fact nothing less than bring Laurel back and probably making as her important as Oliver will get negative reactions from some loud Laurel fans. Like Felicity's fans, they are taking offence to every little thing ATM, based on what I have seen on Twitter. Laurel fans have more reason to be upset, but it doesn't mean that everything that is done or said is disrespectful or worth getting upset or annoyed about.

It should be said that Laurels death has had a big impact and has made Oliver more willing to kill than he was before. ATM, it does not just seem to be in desperate situations or very high level threats like Darhk and Ra's like it was the last two seasons.

That's a problem though. WE'VE SEEN THIS already, move on. Season 2, Season 3, and Season 4 to a degree all teased Oliver moving on from this, only to regress him back every time. MOVE ON already. "Oliver is going to stop killing, oh wait no now he's killing again" has the same impact for me now as "well Lance is happier, oh no he's a miserable drunk AGAIN!!" They've done this so many times, it's no longer interesting to me. Move on and tell new stories, stop spinning your wheels.

And as for Laurel, no fans don't need her to be "as important as Oliver." They want her to be brought back and treated with some freaking respect for once. They already did it with Sara, so why not Laurel? She was killed off for no good reason, her death was handled terribly and made her look pathetic in the process, and now they tease fans with what they want, only to yank it away from them.

Frankly if the showrunners whine about people being angry with them after this, then I'd simply respond with "you brought it on yourselves. You have handled this whole thing horribly from beginning to end."

 

[Slade W]

Shortened for brevity, not out of disrespect.

Agree to disagree?

And yes, it was a joke. But, it's still an ugly statue.

Fair enough.

 

[Slade W]

That's a problem though. WE'VE SEEN THIS already, move on. Season 2, Season 3, and Season 4 to a degree all teased Oliver moving on from this, only to regress him back every time. MOVE ON already. "Oliver is going to stop killing, oh wait no now he's killing again" has the same impact for me now as "well Lance is happier, oh no he's a miserable drunk AGAIN!!" They've done this so many times, it's no longer interesting to me. Move on and tell new stories, stop spinning your wheels.

Fair enough, but based on threads here and on Twitter, Reddit and other forums, you are in the minority. Most people are loving this season and Oliver.

And as for Laurel, no fans don't need her to be "as important as Oliver." They want her to be brought back and treated with some freaking respect for once. They already did it with Sara, so why not Laurel? She was killed off for no good reason, her death was handled terribly and made her look pathetic in the process, and now they tease fans with what they want, only to yank it away from them..

There are Laurel fans on Twitter who want what I mentioned there. That is what I was referring to. This talk of being shown "respect" and "disrespect" is dramatic and pathetic. They are fictional characters. I agree that they have done a bad job adapting things though. As much as I would love them to do so, there is no reason for them to bring back Laurel. This season has being going great. If you feel otherwise, you are in the minority (that sounds harsher than I want it to sound, I do not mean to sound rude saying that, but it can sound a bit brutal, so I apologize if I come across that way). Bringing back Laurel is not a necessity, it would be a luxury ATM. At the moment, the show-runners are doing their job and entertaining most of the fans. They cannot please everyone all the time.

 

[Syncos]

This talk of being shown "respect" and "disrespect" is dramatic and pathetic. They are fictional characters. I agree that they have done a bad job adapting things though.

Here's where I need to disagree. The thought that "fictional characters can't be disrespected" is absurd. Those characters have history, decades and decades of writers and artists and fans.

If Superman showed up in an episode of Supergirl to immediately get frozen in place and stabbed with a kryptonite shank, by some thug, and they were done with it, people would be (rightfully) up in arms.

Black Canary is arguably a more important character than Green Arrow in comics (based on the number of books she stars in and has been a part of over the decades), and they're infinitely intertwined. So it makes sense that people are going to get upset when they treat the character like garbage to prop up some nonsense romance.

They should have killed Donna. That would have given characters -actual- motivation, instead of regressing all of them.

 

[Slade W]

Here's where I need to disagree. The thought that "fictional characters can't be disrespected" is absurd. Those characters have history, decades and decades of writers and artists and fans.

If Superman showed up in an episode of Supergirl to immediately get frozen in place and stabbed with a kryptonite shank, by some thug, and they were done with it, people would be (rightfully) up in arms.

Black Canary is arguably a more important character than Green Arrow in comics (based on the number of books she stars in and has been a part of over the decades), and they're infinitely intertwined. So it makes sense that people are going to get upset when they treat the character like garbage to prop up some nonsense romance.

They should have killed Donna. That would have given characters -actual- motivation, instead of regressing all of them.

I agree that people are right to be annoyed and unhappy when something is done with their favourite character that they do not like. I have been there before. I still think using the terms "respect" and "disrespect" is quite dramatic. I would just say they do not understand the character, did a bad job adapting the character, or are not interested in the character.

I disagree with Donna dying. People did not like or care about her. It would not have had the type of impact that a death with so much build-up should have. Quentin is the character that should have died. Here is a post I made before about why I think it should have been Quentin.

Spoiler

Quentin's death would have made the most sense, as there is not many more places to go with the character. Laurel, in comparison, had far more potential and growing to do. There are far more possibilities for the show with Laurel on it than Quentin. His death would also have had an effect on lots of people. It would have affected Oliver, Laurel, Felicity (because of the horrible effect that it would have on her mother, Donna). And while to a much lesser extent, Diggle and Thea would also have been hurt by it, as I am sure that they have grown to appreciate and respect the former police captain more over the course of the season, as he has aided them by providing an insight into Darhk's operations and risked a lot in doing so.

It also would have fit his character perfectly. His character is a tragic one. He is a man who cannot find happiness, and when he starts to come close to it, it is swiftly and cruelly taken away from him and he is put in a worse position than he was before. What makes it worse is that he is a good man, a kind person, that loves his family more than anything and who just wants to help people and make the city a better place. Despite the flaws that he has, he deserves better. If he had to be killed off the show, there would have been no ending more fitting, more appropriate, more right than him going out protecting Laurel or Sara, just when he was beginning to find happiness in his life with Donna and his relationship with Laurel being in a very good place. It would have summed up the man and his life perfectly and would have been quite beautiful in a way, if not sad too. Tragic characters normally have tragic ends. The Lance family and their lives are filled with tragedy, but one member of the family had much more tragedy to face, obstacles to overcome and grow stronger for it, while the other should have been coming closer to their tragic end. They got them mixed up though.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=33406795&postcount=827

 

[Syncos]

I agree that people are right to be annoyed and unhappy when something is done with their favourite character that they do not like. I have been there before. I still think using the terms "respect" and "disrespect" is quite dramatic. I would just say they do not understand the character, did a bad job adapting the character, or are not interested in the character.

I disagree with Donna dying. People did not like or care about her. It would not have had the type of impact that a death with so much build-up should have. Quentin is the character that should have died. Here is a post I made before about why I think it should have been Quentin.


http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=33406795&postcount=827

That's fair. And I think that would have been much better than what we got.

The way I thought the season should have played out was: Have Donna be killed, and have Quentin, and Felicity be pushing Oliver to kill Darkh. But have Oliver (who has grown passed killing) push back that he wont. That could have made an actual, legitimate reason for Oliver and Felicity to have a falling out (instead of a terrible contrived "lies" story).

 

[Jedi Arrow]

So I've been thinking:

Spoiler

If the new Black Canary is named "Tina Drake" like rumored/speculated/whatever, then she could be the Black Canary version of Arrow's long tradition of making characters canon under their own rules. For example, Thea Queen is clearly meant to be Mia Dearden, but they're dramatically different characters. "Tina Drake" could be their way of bringing "Dinah Drake" into show canon without naming a third character "Dinah."

 

[TheRedWraith]

I just hope they do have her complete a redemption journey so we can get BC back.

 

[Avenging Angel]

She's only in for one episode.

 

[metaphysician]

I wouldn't mind her reappearing. . .[blackout] as long as she remains evil. Since she's apparently been evil for years, and evil enough for Zoom to have accepted her as his right hand woman.[/blackout]

 

[TheRedWraith]

She's only in for one episode.

For now, but she could come back later on, maybe in the next season or later in this season and overtime gain some heroic traits.

 

[Avenging Angel]

For now, but she could come back later on, maybe in the next season or later in this season and overtime gain some heroic traits.

Yeah I'm down for that.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I don't see that happening. The last thing they would want to do while introducing a new BC is bring back the actress who was the original to remind people of what they did.

 

[Reverse-Zoom]

So Prometheus made her try to sneak in to team arrow to kill Oliver wtf. Why can't bc just be dead why do we need 32 bcs in arrow I'm only on episode 6 and while I like it better than seasons 3 or 4 this Prometheus thing feels a lot like it's tommy Merlin.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

More salt in the wound... depending on how this plays out I'm done. Not for the season. For good.

 

[Avenging Angel]

Amongst all the speculation I can't help but think this is a reboot of BC. Black Siren is the way to go, but I'm not against a newer version.

 

[Primal Slayer]

And the truth shall be revealed

 

[Loki882]

Again, how did Prometheus even know about her when even Team Arrow didn't seem to? Why would she consider him any real threat when she can just obliterate him in an instant? How did she escape without Barry and co realizing it? Why must they make Barry and co look stupid constantly?

And WOW can I see the backlash to this being even louder and more intense than before. Showrunners, people want LAUREL BACK!! Not her evil AU doppelganger. You handled her death TERRIBLY. Basically teasing fixing that, only to go "made you look" is the textbook definition of "shooting yourselves in the foot."

 

[Primal Slayer]

Whats the use of even commenting on both shows about them making sure no one can break into their secret hide outs when anyone can break into them with no problem?

I still need to know why TFlash wouldnt give TA a heads up that she left until they ask and is TA even aware of Siren before this? All around it is just a mess.

 

[regnak]

Again, how did Prometheus even know about her when even Team Arrow didn't seem to? Why would she consider him any real threat when she can just obliterate him in an instant? How did she escape without Barry and co realizing it? Why must they make Barry and co look stupid constantly?

And WOW can I see the backlash to this being even louder and more intense than before. Showrunners, people want LAUREL BACK!! Not her evil AU doppelganger. You handled her death TERRIBLY. Basically teasing fixing that, only to go "made you look" is the textbook definition of "shooting yourselves in the foot."

The answer to all of that is Guggenheim is an idiot who clearly got his job due to connections not merit.

 

[Slade W]

It has been a good while since Guggenheim last killed Laurel (almost 9 months). Given his overwhelming and incessant urges to kill Laurel, that is far too long. He held back in episode 100. He now must sate his hunger by bringing back her E2 counterpart and killing her. He will try to get away with it by saying it is not really Laurel.