Arrow Dinah Laurel Lance/Katie Cassidy Thread - Part 4

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Sucks for Katie cause now more then ever, Laurel will be compared to Sara/DD, both of whom will be treated better than Laurel ever was. There wont be anything unique to Laurel.
 
I just resigned to the situation that Katie was going to be BC originally. But their must have been a lot of bad blood between her Amell or the producers. Then Sara became more popular among people...which didn't help. Finally, they just cut the cord and went the Dinah Drake route. Since the fans are going to be upset about it. Either no BC or the Drake route. They went with having an new BC.

I'm guessing whatever this was is mostly between her and Guggenheim. but it really has made a mess of things. Guggenheim seems to blame Katie and the fans for everything. if this new BC doesn't work same thing.
 
So is Laurel the 'Henry James Olsen' of Arrow?
 
I'm starting to believe that Guggenheim and Cassidy (and/or Berlanti and Cassidy) don't get along.
 
If and when we see Black Siren again, I will be very interested and cringing at the thought of how they will handle her and DD. I probably wont be happy.
 
I think its still possible they simply failed utterly with their initial direction for the character, and just kept on screwing up over and over again with either the storylines they built for her, or their perception of her while writing new ones.

I still think they're plan for the character at the start was that she would be the CW Female Audience SurrogateTM first and foremost, with her transformation into Black Canary as a secondary part of her character. They wanted Lana Lang 2.0, and I think that's part of the reason why they wrote her so blandly and seemed uncertain how she should be portrayed. At times, she was supposed to be a nascent superhero and archetypal cop's daughter, but they made her seem like an incompetent "faux action girl" with scenes like the gunfight in her apartment, or her lack of common sense getting Tommy killed. It's also why they probably called her "Laurel;" Dinah was perhaps too unique of a name, while Laurel has a nice, bland quality to it.

Season 2, they still hoped she'd be the CW Female Audience SurrogateTM, but they mishandled their "Born Again" storyline by not getting us invested in Laurel as a heroic character first, and they did that while contrasting her unintentionally with Sara. Sara was not a perfect translation of any Canary character from the comics, but she was a comic character through and through, and basically a female Oliver, while Laurel...wasn't.

Season Three, they seemed to realize that for whatever reason, Laurel wasn't going to be the CW Female Audience SurrogateTM, and they started to focus on her as a superhero. But, to use wrestling and comic parlance, they "booked" her wrong at her start and made Sara a victim of the Women In Refridgerators Syndrome. So while they managed to turn the character around, it left some bad blood among parts of the fanbase about her Genesis as Black Canary. And, unfortunately, I think they misheard the complaints centered on the off putting death of Sara, the stupid Sara impersonation, and pacing problems, and instead believed the issue was that Laurel wasn't working out. Not their writing and plotting, the character herself.

(Incidentally,I think you can see Felicty shift into the role of CW Female Audience SurrogateTM at this point, and that's when her character started to take a few hits as well, losing humor for angst as time went on.)

Finally, in Season 4, they plan the "Someone will DIE!" Scene. Laurel is chosen not because they don't like her or her actress, but because of all the characters on the show, she's the one who hasn't turned out like they planned she would, and because they believe in certain formulas for a television show which she doesn't cleanly fit anymore. They can't see the appeal of Black Canary just as a superhero without more soapy elements. So they kill her off... And are promptly hit with tirades and complaints from the people who were complaining about the character previously, because even as much as her plotting was bad, people liked the actress and were thrilled to have Black Canary.

And only now do they finally understand the appeal of the character; we wanted Black Canary, so they're going to try and give us Black Canary. But only because they couldn't make her the character they wanted.
 
Although I kind of suspect bad blood with Guggenheim (not with Amell, as she and him seem to get along well), I also thing godisawesome is on the nose with his evaluation. Also note how they returned somewhat to her "bland Audience Surrogate" portrayal in S4. She was less snarky and more of a moral compass for all of Team Arrow. And Sara seemed more like your typical CW female in S2 than Laurel did, too.
 
Sounds about right, though I dont know why they didnt bother to spice her up. They could've easily adapted the beginning of DDs origin, killed off Lance and Donna (I mean Lance has all of like 10mins thus far?) sent Laurel off during the summer to get herself together and voila! Story story story.
 
Although I kind of suspect bad blood with Guggenheim (not with Amell, as she and him seem to get along well), I also thing godisawesome is on the nose with his evaluation. Also note how they returned somewhat to her "bland Audience Surrogate" portrayal in S4. She was less snarky and more of a moral compass for all of Team Arrow. And Sara seemed more like your typical CW female in S2 than Laurel did, too.

I kind of take Sara and Laurel's arcs in Season 2 as evidence that Arrow's writing team does its best work with shorter, succinct arcs based around resolving certain character threads, rather than long arcs that stretch for seasons. Sara's initial arc was basically Oliver's Season One arc in an abridged form, almost literally beat for beat; it mostly acted to focus the action so the audience got to know the character while the writers and actress fine tuned the character. And when Sara returned as a near main cast member, they did start writing her as a more common CW female protagonist.

But that first arc gave her a strong foundation, and the overall effect made her feel like a fully fleshed out altruist we could cheer for, since at her core she was Oliver's opposite number and equal. She was closer to him in archetype than just about any other character in the show. So while her interactions felt more like common CW fluff, she was still a highly active figure in her storyline.

Laurel, on the other hand, had what mostly amounted to one perpetual subplot throughout Season 2; she's stuck in a character arc moving at the speed of molasses about Tommy's death and her issues while Oliver adopts a no-killing rule, streamlines Team Arrow, becomes a traditional superhero with a mask, reveals a history of fighting extranormal opponents, rediscovers Slade alive and well, and loses his mom. Her subplot lacked focus and pacing, and that's why it stunk.

Incidentally, I think that same problem plagued Seasons 3 and 4, though in different ways. 3 simply drug everything out far too long, from Sara's murder investigation to Merlyn's reveal, to Oliver's subplot on recovery from the climb, to the final conflict with Ra's. It no coincidence that arguably Laurel's best arc was the best arc of Season 3, when Brick is the main villain for a short but tightly paced arc and her arrival as a full fledged vigilante arrives with some genuine power. And Season 4 had a great villain, but almost wasted him with how long he opposed the heroes.

If the writers take too much time, they tend to tread water, and that plagued Laurel far too much in Seasons 1-4.
 
They should've replaced Laurels drunken arc with her training to deal with her grief and anger surrounding Tommy. Bring in Sara as Ravager and end the season with Laurel suiting up as Black Canary to help fight against Slade and his men.
 
The "drunken arc" is a good example of "ok idea, but very poor execution." Like I get what they were going for, and it's not a terrible idea in theory. The problem is that the way that they did it was sloppy and a lot of viewers simply turned on the character and weren't willing to come back. Like it almost didn't matter what they did with her after that, many people grew to dislike her so much that they just basically said "nope, I'm done. I don't care anymore."

And then they compounded the problem with the whole "she lies to her father about Sara's death, to the point of impersonating her sister/her voice." Which the showrunners clearly expected to make her seem sympathetic, but many in the audience had the opposite reaction. They saw her as despicable for doing that.

I believe that even Guggenheim himself has admitted that they didn't anticipate that there was going to be a backlash to all of that like there was.

And then there was stuff that seemed like it was meant to make her look "strong," but actually made her look like an idiot in-context. She keeps a loaded shotgun in her apartment in case of a break in, but only has ONE shell in it apparently. She goes back to get files, in the middle of an earthquake when the building is collapsing all around her and everyone else is doing the intelligent thing and getting the heck out of there. And as a result, Tommy dies trying to save her, an unnecessary death really. She gets kidnapped multiple times, etc.

It's like they had the idea of "Laurel becomes BC eventually," but no real idea of how to get there organically. So they constantly screwed up along the way (hurting the character in the process). And when they did finally get there, a lot of the audience no longer cared AND then they seemed to have no real plan for her character AFTER she finally became BC. So she was just, kind of there most of the time.
 
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I agree with the comments, but ppl did start to like her after she became the BC.

I said once before, to me, it was very simple to have her more like her comic character. After S3 (of S4 with her father killed), she could just quit being a lawyer and open a gym, a dojo, teaching young poor girls how to defend themselves. There, she would spend her whole day at a gym doing training, so after some episodes they could have her doing much more complicated things on the field and it would be easy to accept because we know she's training everyday. Once or two times in the season they could give her a storyline of something bad that is happening with one of her students and she takes care of it outside Team Arrow, so they could have her more of an independent character sometimes (and the not taking bs from others could show when she is confronting whoever is doing something bad for the student), she could be a extremely better fighter at the end of the season, and when it came to Team Arrow she could keep her S4 role, help on the fights and give some moral thoughts.

Plus the gym could be the entrance to the Arrow Cave. Hell, they could even have some fun and from time to time have some of the team Arrow training there (with a full gym, they could have more than just some small fights in the middle of the cave, they could have some parkour like Stephen sometimes posts on his facebook, lifting weights while some random talk and bounding by the team is happening, more weapong training).

They (producer) just didn't care at all with her character.
 
They also had this wonky thing, and TBF she's not the only character who they've done this to, of making her competency level plot-convenient. Like she goes from having trouble stopping a simple mugger, to being able to fight off multiple LOA members, and there was no real onscreen progression there. And then she'd be as skilled or as incompetent as the plot needed her to be at the time.
 
They loved to play with her skill level for sure. S1/2 she knew pretty good self defense moves and was good with a gun, then she suits up and it all flys out the window.

It's a shame that they never put her boxing skills to more use.
 
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They didn't want her to be a better fighter than Oliver even though she should be. Also no two people progress at the same speed when learning something new. Some people actually have natural talents, and some people's natural talents progress at a speed that is near super human. Some people are able to play piano without a lesson, do complicated math without being taught. It's the way of the world, life isn't fair. It wouldn't have been hard to say Laurel has some natural talents for fighting. She was in central city at the time of the star lab explosion visiting her mother I believe.
 
Well they do like to cut a lot of Laurels more humanizing scenes.

Then there was that whole thing where they didnt tell Katie about bringing in Caity to play Sara/Canary until like 2 weeks before it happened when the news leaked.

Followed by pushing Katie to the back of promotion for S2 in general.

Cutting her screen time drastically, giving her nothing to do during the crossovers.

And of course finding every possible way to replace her in every way the character served the show.
 
We'll be seeing her when we come back in the first episode. Then, as always with Katie, if we find the right story, we bring her back and we want to have her on the show as much as possible. It has been proven by the recent events that she's obviously a huge fan favorite, and we love working with her. That said, she won't factor hugely into the back half of the season, but I think the way we brought her back and the twist and the reveal, will really help set the tone for the back half of the season for Oliver and Felicity emotionally, and also for how Prometheus operates.
http://mashable.com/2017/01/25/arrow-season-5-spoilers-laurel-oliver-felicity-dating/#9pejS4w9NOqY

There is plenty of story to tell but they dont seem as interested as they say they do to actually tell it.
 
And even in that quote, it's about Oliver and Felicity's character. Also where was the "right story" when you decided to kill her off, despite going on and on and on for years about how her being BC was your big endgame?
 
Wow, can you imagine the level of fan wars and further resentment that fans of Laurel would have if we had Dinah Drake fight Black Siren later on and easily win that battle?
 
My body is already ready for the day that will come.
 
And even in that quote, it's about Oliver and Felicity's character. Also where was the "right story" when you decided to kill her off, despite going on and on and on for years about how her being BC was your big endgame?

They probably were sincere when they made the claims that her becoming BC was endgame, they just ended up hitting two huge, unexpected roadblocks: Felicity and Sara being way more popular with the fans.

This suddenly made Felicity the show's romantic lead and caused a lot of hate and backlash against Laurel when they killed Sara to give the Black Canary identity to her. It's a shame too because I always liked Laurel, they just kept making really stupid decisions that caused people to hate her.
 
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