EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

[MCU]

How would a Black Panther movie fit in with the other Marvel movies? I've always thought that the idea of small, isolated nations having tech far in advance of the world at large to be unbelievable. It can be made to work in comics and cartoons but for the big screen they'd have to change this aspect imo.

Could they do a Black Panther movie that isn't focused on Wakonda and therefore doesn't have to define what that country is like? That way people can imagine it however they like and it doesn't have the jar with the "realistic" feel of the world (as realistic as a world with giant green guys and norse gods running around can be anyway).

This is the worst idea ever. Wakanda is what will make this movie different and amazing. The fact that he's a King of a country etc. It makes for a whole different type of movie.

 

[MCU]

Btw, I think BP film is gonna be announced at Comic Con with Stan Lees recent statement.

 

[bubbadoom]

^This is definitely a discussion we've had before. The audience was in on the invention of Stark's tech as part of his journey. There is no: They like X in movie A so they'll automatically like X in movie B. That's not how storytelling works. But on the flip side, if you invite the audience in on the creation and genesis of this tech through their growing attachment to T'Challa, you can give Wakanda whatever tech you want, basically.

To answer the question, what sets Black Panther as a hero apart is the shadowy styling, the brilliant deductive mind and the more weaponized gadgets. That, in a way, is what sets the film apart, the political intrigue, the mental games that characters play with each other and a very visceral martial arts style. It connects with the MCU well, imho, because it's the genesis for Cap's shield, kind of putting it first on the timeline, but it's also got Vibranium, which famously ties into any villain plot, making Black Panther a very integral part of the current adventure. The Vibranium is the 'in' on either hand, including the hand of how you explain it's high techness. The Black Panther is just what happens when someone comes along who can exploit that to its maximum potential.

Sure we saw Tony build the Arc reactor and Armor, but that was not the tech I was speaking of. The idea that he can tell JARVIS to out put an entire suit in a few hours is pretty advanced stuff - we don't see how this fantastic tech was created and we don't much care - we just accept it as something that exists in his world.

I equate it to the X-Men's set up in the first X-Movie. We have no trouble buying into the existence of this school with all this amazing tech beneath it - including a landing pad for a Blackbird Jet, and a fantastic computer that can locate every mind on earth - they just say that's the way things are and we accept it. Is Wakanda that much more of a stretch?

 

[the last son]

I'm worried about the casting. I pray they either go with the guy from 42 or an unknown. Please just get this right. Also, give me a great suit and I would be a happy man. I want BP in his suit to be downright EPIC. This movie can be great if they allow it to be.

 

[E-Man]

Sure we saw Tony build the Arc reactor and Armor, but that was not the tech I was speaking of. The idea that he can tell JARVIS to out put an entire suit in a few hours is pretty advanced stuff - we don't see how this fantastic tech was created and we don't much care - we just accept it as something that exists in his world.

I equate it to the X-Men's set up in the first X-Movie. We have no trouble buying into the existence of this school with all this amazing tech beneath it - including a landing pad for a Blackbird Jet, and a fantastic computer that can locate every mind on earth - they just say that's the way things are and we accept it. Is Wakanda that much more of a stretch?

I feel the same way. This isn't the real world, so there is plenty of reason to believe that Wakanda could exist the way it is in the comics. An easy explanation is that they have high level tech, they have high level security, and it's hard to know all that they have because of it. Hell even throw some mysticism in there too. It's world creating, so there's no need to limit Wakanda when other places like Asgard haven't got the same treatment.

 

[JB-the-Hunter]

I'm worried about the casting. I pray they either go with the guy from 42 or an unknown. Please just get this right. Also, give me a great suit and I would be a happy man. I want BP in his suit to be downright EPIC. This movie can be great if they allow it to be.

Why worry about the casting? This is the studio that gave us this:
[YT]YBC1Qob27sM[/YT]

And this:
[YT]GA5NxSs7WUo[/YT]

And this:
[YT]mjuvsvdL0nk[/YT]

And this:
[YT]3KQMFMZnhGM[/YT]

 

[the last son]

Morris Chestnut is why I'm worried. I love him as an actor but man if he is even discussion for BP or they are thinking of getting an older black actor because they are afraid to give a young unknown black actor any chance..You have to go young and unknown. Search all countries/continents just give me a young BP

 

[DrCosmic]

Sure we saw Tony build the Arc reactor and Armor, but that was not the tech I was speaking of. The idea that he can tell JARVIS to out put an entire suit in a few hours is pretty advanced stuff - we don't see how this fantastic tech was created and we don't much care - we just accept it as something that exists in his world.

I equate it to the X-Men's set up in the first X-Movie. We have no trouble buying into the existence of this school with all this amazing tech beneath it - including a landing pad for a Blackbird Jet, and a fantastic computer that can locate every mind on earth - they just say that's the way things are and we accept it. Is Wakanda that much more of a stretch?

Anyone with sufficient funds could have the JARVIS set up, even back in 2008. It isn't fantastic really, in the sense of sci-fi, it's just danged cool.

I think with the X-Men movie they had the lee-way of building a new Universe from scratch and setting in the near future, separate from the world that we know in a fantastic sense. A BP film with an established super-Wakanda would have to integrate Wakanda into the MCU the same way that the X-Men movies integrated the X-Men into our world, partly by making it separate time-wise, not an option, and partly be the movie being *about* the effect of the new X-Men (section of the) world on the world we know, both past, present and future.

A lot of these comparisons take the examples out of context. Unless you have the X-Men's/Asgards/The Comics' situation and approach it in a similar way, then the effect on the audience will be different, sometimes entirely so. You can't say "just have the same effect as X-men" and then do everything other than the fact that the tech is already invented different for an audience with different expectations.

I feel the same way. This isn't the real world, so there is plenty of reason to believe that Wakanda could exist the way it is in the comics. An easy explanation is that they have high level tech, they have high level security, and it's hard to know all that they have because of it. Hell even throw some mysticism in there too. It's world creating, so there's no need to limit Wakanda when other places like Asgard haven't got the same treatment.

This came up earlier in the thread, so I want to repeat, no other character has gotten all their awesomeness from the comics. Asgard in particular was changed in very nature from the creator-gods of Earth to sufficiently advanced aliens. That's a huuuuuge step. The number of things that were toned down and changed to keep in line with "the real world" in Thor is extremely significant. I know some people want Super-Wakanda from the comics from frame 1, and don't see any reason why it shouldn't be there, but lets not pretend that everyone else is getting some kind of preferential treatment that BP wouldn't get.

And to nitpick, it's not world creating, you're adding onto an existing world.

Edit: And like I said before, it's possible to do the sort of montage of Wakanda Wolverine: Origins style and sort of make the movie *about* Wakanda, but I don't think that's the kind of movie that would flatter T'Challa the most, and I think that should be the goal, capturing that spirit of the character, which was most vibrant, imho, back when *he* was the main reason Wakanda was what it was.

 

[bubbadoom]

Changes may have been made in Asgard, but they still just said this is it, this is the way it works and did not get bogged down with any technical reasoning.

Same should work for Wakanda. It's their tech that has enabled them to keep their advanced nature a secret from most of the world- maybe a few guys like Fury in SHIELD are aware of it - as the map in IM2 would suggest - but for the most part little is known about it. Does not seem like that big of a stretch or leap - when it was introduced in FF 52 we did not have any trouble accepting it - so why is this any different?

 

[DrCosmic]

It depends on what type of Wakanda we're talking about. Some hidden tech built by a young inventor - whom is our hero - that lacks the potency and prevelance to take over or fend off the world? That's what we got in FF 52, and it works well in a small established universe like the MCU.

Hidden Isolationist Coruscant, not so much.

And Thor didn't just say 'this is it.' They used Clarke's Law multiple times to connect the idea of mythology with our world. And that's after removing many of Thor and Asgard's abilities and it's most incredible properties. Black Panther and Wakanda likely get a similar treatment. After which 'this is it' may indeed happen.

Edit: If you like Thor because he's a God, because he has the Godblast, because he can teleport and transmute matter with Mjolnir, because Asgard is a separate realm, unconquered and untouchable by humanity... then Thor was a great disappointment. If you like Thor because of the character Thor, Thor was a great film. If you didn't like the Thor character before, Thor was a good film, and Thor was endearing, because we were with him every step of his journey. It'd be really sad if a Black Panther movie missed opportunities to showcase the character's heart because they couldn't let go of arming him to the teeth from day one.

 

[RockSP]

Why worry about the casting?

Because they are supposedly meeting with Vin Diesel

 

[bubbadoom]

Trying to rationalize or justify or tone down the "fantastic" elements of the first Fox FF movie was one of the reasons it failed the way it did and I would hate to see Marvel make the same mistake here - they just need to got for it and don't look back!

 

[DrCosmic]

Balderdash. All the successful superhero movies have toned down or justified elements, and they did not suck.

What did Fantastic Four tone down? Dr. Doom? He was actually amped up, and was more dangerous, less realistic, and less justified than the comics version. Everything else was turned up and far less justified than the explanations for Wakanda that have been volunteered.

The example is Green Lantern - they actually didn't justify anything, but it didn't matter, because the character was not interesting or endearing. They made the mistake you're suggesting, include all the current comics lore and just expect people to like a character who has everything done for them. That's a failure.

 

[bubbadoom]

Reed Richards was toned down to such a degree that he was hardly the same character that he is in the comics. Instead of having the a Baxter Building that's even a fraction of what Stark has in IM, he a struggling, broke dreamer who has to come crawling to Doom to finance his work.
In IM, we accept that Stark has the smarts to pull off what he does, and the super advanced tech at home to out put an entire suit of armor in hours - which regardless of what you think - is years beyond what we have today - much less in 2008. I know they can "grow" parts now but there's a huge leap from that to what Stark does in the movies - not that I have a problem with it because they do it in such a mater of fact manner that we buy it.

In FF 52 Wakanda is a vast tech jungle hidden beneath a real one [or one that looks real]. They have air ships that rival Reed's designs, all sorts of cool stuff - and we buy it!

 

[DrCosmic]

Reed wasn't a struggling dreamer. He was an uber genius with no money... something that happens in comics from time to time. I think you're confusing making characters 'earn' the fantastic elements with toning them down. Thor never becomes a God. Reed Richards soon gets money and an uber Baxter Building.

Regardless, Powered Armor is years behind us, not away and an Assembly Lines can be purchased for just a few million dollars. This is not fantastic, that's part of why it's so easy to buy, and why the fantastic part- the power source - couldn't be covered in a magazine cover montage.

In FF52, we buy Wakanda as part of the Marvel Universe, mostly because it fits. It's right in line, tone and tech wise, with the rest of the Marvel Universe at that time - where Africa was an unexplored unknown continent, easy to hide things in. A BP movie should be the same with the MCU. It should fit into the MCU, not into the X-Men franchise, not in the 70s Marvel comics. Buying Wakanda as a believable 70s comic book world means nothing for a film. Now, that said, I stand by the idea that if all the incredible things we see are the product of T'Challa as opposed to giving him an 'easy' switch at the beginning of the movie, it could still be cool. I would suggest having him only make things that related to the storyline, as opposed to just making inconsequential stuff for the sake of making Wakanda uber, which does nothing to make the movie better.

 

[spideymouse]

I'm pretty sure Marvel works with them with those release dates. They moved Cap right before Sony announced TASM2. They didn't have to do that and Sony wouldn't have put Spidey up against Cap if they weren't working with Marvel.

No, Marvel already had the May spot locked up for one of their movies, like they locked up spots in 2016/2017 recently. They moved Cap to April so Spidey could have May. You have to remember that Marvel makes money off of Spidey and X-Men movies as well, it's a different situation than other studios. Also notice that Sony put Spidey at the June slot in 2017 after Marvel locked up the May spot for that month.

Need to guard against the revisionist history here. Bubbadoom is right--Sony announced its TASM2 release date of May 2, 2014 first, and it was five days later that Marvel first announced the May 16 and June 27 dates for its then-mystery 2014 films. Marvel would stick to the May release date, knowingly just two weeks after TASM2, for almost a full year before they finally wised up and changed it.

It was four months later, of course, that they moved the June 27 date to April 4, and then announced it as Cap 2, and almost a year after the first announcement they finally moved the May 16 date to August 1, and subsequently announced it as GOTG at SDCC. Not-so-coincidentally, this final move was announced on the day of the release of TASM. The timing here doesn't indicate studio cooperation but more of a game of chicken. If TASM looked like it was going to tank, then I don't think Marvel would have made the move. So again, for nearly 10 months, Marvel was planning to release a movie (GOTG) two weeks after TASM2. The way the 2014 dates shook out is precisely why I do not think these studios sit on a back porch and plan out their release dates together.

 

[metaphysician]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: the way to go is to have Wakanda be the Japan of Africa. They weren't a hypertech city in the jungle. . . but they *were* culturally and technologically advanced relative to their neighbors, such that once the colonial powers started poking around in their neighborhood, they could fend them off and remain independent. Post-renaissance development turned into modern industrial achievement in the space of a few decades. . . but there are still cultural rifts remaining, akin to the conflicts behind the Meiji Restoration. Some people want to take Wakanda upward and outward, advancing in the world and the future, while others dream of a return to the older ways, when there was just Wakanda and its inargued(?) greatness, untouchable at the center of its jungle nation.

 

[Paradox1]

Why can't Wakanda go the route of Gorrilla city and be this advanced city under some kind of shield that keeps them invisible to most tech. Then somehow have this tech failing in some way that nobody in Wakanda has been able to fix.Then sending the future king into the world to learn in western school makes sense.

 

[tvor03]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: the way to go is to have Wakanda be the Japan of Africa. They weren't a hypertech city in the jungle. . . but they *were* culturally and technologically advanced relative to their neighbors, such that once the colonial powers started poking around in their neighborhood, they could fend them off and remain independent. Post-renaissance development turned into modern industrial achievement in the space of a few decades. . . but there are still cultural rifts remaining, akin to the conflicts behind the Meiji Restoration. Some people want to take Wakanda upward and outward, advancing in the world and the future, while others dream of a return to the older ways, when there was just Wakanda and its inargued(?) greatness, untouchable at the center of its jungle nation.

yes, that's exactly how I pictured it. And that conflict between old and new should be the driving point of the plot. T'Challa wants Wakanda to become a recognized world leader in science and model for other African nations, while the rival White Gorilla clan, which acts more like a political party than rival tribe, wants to further isolate Wakanda from the world and return to the old ways.

 

[MCU]

Because they are supposedly meeting with Vin Diesel

Yea, but theres no way for the role of BP there meeting with him. I had Diesel as Drax in Guardians of the Galaxy which he would have been perfect for. To late though. I could also see him as Thanos/Ronan the Accuser.

 

[bubbadoom]

Need to guard against the revisionist history here. Bubbadoom is right--Sony announced its TASM2 release date of May 2, 2014 first, and it was five days later that Marvel first announced the May 16 and June 27 dates for its then-mystery 2014 films. Marvel would stick to the May release date, knowingly just two weeks after TASM2, for almost a full year before they finally wised up and changed it.

It was four months later, of course, that they moved the June 27 date to April 4, and then announced it as Cap 2, and almost a year after the first announcement they finally moved the May 16 date to August 1, and subsequently announced it as GOTG at SDCC. Not-so-coincidentally, this final move was announced on the day of the release of TASM. The timing here doesn't indicate studio cooperation but more of a game of chicken. If TASM looked like it was going to tank, then I don't think Marvel would have made the move. So again, for nearly 10 months, Marvel was planning to release a movie (GOTG) two weeks after TASM2. The way the 2014 dates shook out is precisely why I do not think these studios sit on a back porch and plan out their release dates together.

Thanks Spidey, that's closer to how I remembered it...but could not find the dates to back it up...

 

[spideymouse]

Thanks Spidey, that's closer to how I remembered it...but could not find the dates to back it up...

No problem. It irks me when people interpret release date announcements as if these studios are all friends and working together hand-in-hand to plan out their movies--the movie industry is a cutthroat business with hundreds of millions of dollars on the line. And it irks me even more when people rewrite what actually happened in order to support such claims.

 

[bubbadoom]

yes, that's exactly how I pictured it. And that conflict between old and new should be the driving point of the plot. T'Challa wants Wakanda to become a recognized world leader in science and model for other African nations, while the rival White Gorilla clan, which acts more like a political party than rival tribe, wants to further isolate Wakanda from the world and return to the old ways.

...or turning their back on the Great Panther all together...

This could be a good analogy to some of the political problems going on in that part of the world today - if they are brave enough to go there - but for a company that shied away from something as safe as Nazis in the first Cap movie, well who knows...

 

[tamron]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: the way to go is to have Wakanda be the Japan of Africa. They weren't a hypertech city in the jungle. . . but they *were* culturally and technologically advanced relative to their neighbors, such that once the colonial powers started poking around in their neighborhood, they could fend them off and remain independent. Post-renaissance development turned into modern industrial achievement in the space of a few decades. . . but there are still cultural rifts remaining, akin to the conflicts behind the Meiji Restoration. Some people want to take Wakanda upward and outward, advancing in the world and the future, while others dream of a return to the older ways, when there was just Wakanda and its inargued(?) greatness, untouchable at the center of its jungle nation.

I'm so on board with this. This is a great way to look at it.

 

[RockSP]

Yea, but theres no way for the role of BP there meeting with him. I had Diesel as Drax in Guardians of the Galaxy which he would have been perfect for. To late though. I could also see him as Thanos/Ronan the Accuser.

Heh, well that's what the sarcasm emoticon was for. I disagree that he would've been perfect for Drax, though. I'm as interested in seeing Diesel in a mcu movie as I am in seeing Stallone or Schwarzenegger in one (which is to say not at all).