EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

[DarKush]

font's fine!

I'd argue that Will Smith himself is one of the biggest brands in Hollywood.​

I have seen those but the actual critic reviews seem to focus more on the quality/lack thereof of the acting, writing, et al as opposed to the Scientology. Any remarks on nepotism are made only as regards the result (Jaden not being good enough for the part) and not on the act itself (i.e.: nepitism is ok IF the beneficiary is adequate to the task).​

​

[/LEFT]

You can see my response to cosmic about alleged white audience reluctance to watch movies with black cast.

So again, if Disney knows this as a fact - if Black Panther the movie fails, skin color will be a factor that should be considered due to the real history of racism in this country - don't you think Disney would rather say 'Screw it, let's focus on something less potentially volatile.'?

While Will Smith is a very big name in Hollywood, After Earth was a brand new thing and it didn't have any goodwill that a Bad Boys III, Independence Day 2, or maybe even a MIB IV would engender among fans. And Smith's own MIB III did good business but didn't burn up the box office like previous outings.

By contrast a Black Panther film could be supported by the billion-plus Avengers franchise which is very hot right now. You are talking about one actor and I am referring to a franchise that is bigger than any one actor and right now could largely sell itself. Smith, like many big actors, can stumble, but that should have no bearing on whether a Panther film should be made. Panther is not going to be After Earth 2.

As for critics, there are reviews that mention quality or lack thereof and Scientology and nepotism. Of course those critics might not meet your definition, but further I think we do have to take into account the internet criticism, which is laden with Scientology and nepotism charges.

I saw your response regarding Hollywood racism and I think Paradox made some very good replies. I think there is something you haven't taken into consideration. Why is there a BET or TV One for example? Or Jet, or Ebony? Many of these media outlets were created because black people didn't have mainstream (white) media institutions so they created their own. And there are still issues with media representation and access. There are websites like Shadow and Act and to some extent, Racialicious that explore these kind of issues often.

Your initial idea that a hypothetical Black Panther film might hinge on the success/failure of films like Red Tails and After Earth points to some of the racial divide that black filmmakers, screen writers, etc. still have to deal with. Most wouldn't think the success of Flyboys and Sunshine would factor into whether a Ghost Rider film should be greenlit or not, but with the trio of films you named-which have little relation to each other except for black actors-it just shows how much of a burden it can be to get projects made through the Hollywood system because these creators are contending with racial assumptions from the suits before they even get to be exposed to potential racial assumptions or hang ups from the mass audience. White directors and actors don't have those burdens or assumptions placed on them from out the gate.

 

[tvor03]

I'll admit...A Black Panther movie may not do as well as the other hero films due to the main character being black...specifically in the south.

As a proud Southerner who has lived in and traveled to most every corner of this country, I can tell you that is bologna. I have seen much more rampant and open racism in the North and in the West than I ever have in the South.

 

[Spider - Man]

It was simply to add perspective and subtext to the discussion. On the points you contributed, black people as whole have never sought to establish themselves as separate, they simply have made the most of being separated, and if anything, tried to integrate. Saying the black community is responsible for being separate is pretty preposterous in the face of American History. Especially since many things blacks have established have been shared by the rest of America, from Blues to the Fresh Prince of Bel Air

Right, the perspective that one race not wanting to see movies featuring another race was exclusively perpetrated by whites even though the very article stated blacks want to see movies starring blacks. That’s fair.

I gave examples of black separation. There are plenty of others. If you don’t want to acknowledge them as they don’t help your point of view, that’s up to you. As to the Fresh Prince, had they not ‘shared’ it, I doubt the ratings would have kept it on more than a few episodes.

Exactly. That suggests that sometimes one thing happens, sometimes another, sometimes none of these things happen. There are dozens of ways for race, and perception thereof, to lead to a poor film.

It sounds like this whole ‘race’ thing is what’s causing the problem. As I said, perhaps that is why only 2 out of the 30 biggest movies had significant roles played by black people.

It falls in line, yes, but it's not what I was saying. It happens not to be true as well. I'm not entirely sure what role race played in AE, if any.

And yet you STILL cannot seem to clarify what you ARE trying to say. So surprising. And surely you must know the role race plays in AE. You seem to know the role race plays in everything else though you just can’t seem to provide evidence for it.

I read your entire post to me, I had to read your reply to someone else to get your point.

And yet strangely enough, you posted THIS - Ah, and here is your actual point – in response to…a reply to you!

That does seem to be the logic that movie execs use, incidentally.

And of course you have a source to back up this assumption…

But no, you again have omitted the note about co-effect relationships, which would apply to the example you gave, but not to the one I gave.

You make this too fun! Your MO is so easy to see. The example I gave is every bit as legitimate and ridiculous as yours. You know this so you pull ‘co-effect relationships’ out of your ass to try to show some non-existent distinction. So do me a favor – show me a link that defines ‘co-effect relationships’. I’m calling BS on you.

My statements and logic are just fine.

Other than being completely illogical, I guess.

Just because you assume a statement is absolute and general does not make it convoluted, you just are not able to read it properly for some reason. Just because you omit part of my statement and then apply that part of my logic to a separate case, doesn't make my logic faulty.

I already clarified that absolute wasn’t the best descriptor. And yet again you fail to provide any substance for your views.

You're still making an absolute statement out of cause. "Radiation causes cancer." Is true. But you can't turn around and say "If you get radiation, you *will* get cancer."

That statement doesn’t really apply. Race in and of itself cannot ‘cause’ anything, unlike radiation causing cancer.

There's no 'odds of anyone' there are specific people making such a decision. They've expressed their concern, which is one of perception, closely related to marketing. Once they overcome that, which they can, and Disney has in the past with Princess and the Frog and stuff, the movie will get made and both of those issues will be just as relevant as they were for Django Unchained.

Pardon me if I don’t hold my breath. But you who has so much faith, feel free

Yes, you did pull them out of nowhere. You, and you alone, have stated that this statement has to be absolute, that it has to describe a specific chain of cause and effect instead of a large group of similar chains, as intended and elaborated upon by me. That is entirely of your work, and stands in contrast to the statements I've given. A responsible reading might be inclined to ask for examples (I have actually given a couple already), but taking your perception of "race," "cause," and "make" and saying that *I* said them is poor communication. If you believe non-specific statements are meaningless - that's fine, don't bother responding then.

Again I said that absolute wasn’t the best descriptor but I guess you have a bit of a comprehension problem. Here’s your elaboration: sometimes one thing happens, sometimes another, sometimes none of these things happen. Way to get specific.Your statement could be interpreted thusly (since you made it so vague): Black actors motivate racist white Hollywood execs to intentionally sabotage films with black or female leads. The problem is, again, you can’t show proof of ANYONE being proven racist.

Good article.

I thought you’d feel an affinity with it, especially the charges of Lucas being racist.

You never asked. You said it was sad. I agreed. I'll see if I can find such a statement on record, and edit it in here.

Don’t bother. Let me explain it to you. Black writers face quite the quandary when confronted with writing a black character because black people in general can’t agree on how a black person should be presented. They’re either too black or not black enough. To have to find that razor thin line that would be a perfect combination that would satisfy the majority of the black audience while not alienating the white audience is probably too arduous a task for even the best writers. In that light, it is no wonder Disney hasn’t broken ground on a Panther film yet. Incidentally I don’t claim to know this as the reason as you seem to. It just makes sense from a logical standpoint.

But you're right, perhaps Lucas was wrong, there are parts of Hollywood, obviously, that want to make a big budget black movie... clearly the parts he was talking to did not. Unless he's a bold faced liar, and that's not completely outside the realm of possibility.

Well, I’m sure he can’t be a racist without being a bold faced liar as well!

It sounds like my efforts are slowly paying off, and you are starting to take my general statement as just that, as well as speak respectfully. I don't fear embarrassment, but I genuinely fear having to deal with people who mentally edit my statements and then make arguments against things that have not been said, especially when they use their edited version of my statements to draw conclusions about me. Facing that fear with you is something I am proud of.

As you said, it is YOUR fear you are facing and rest assured you are facing it alone much as I’m sure you’d love someone to hold your hand. But I mean that in the most respectful way!

Let’s see, you said no one called Lucas a racist, then admitted you like the article that did then went one further to call him a liar. You have yet to provide any proof for your inflammatory accusations against Hollywood executives. So yeah, good ‘effort’.

On your variables, the race of the director or maybe even other parts of the cast and crew

Hey Charlie, we got a black gaffer on this film. Make it fail!

or perhaps even just the subject matter, could play a role as well.

Yet you think people who have a problem writing black characters and marketing films with black leads want to make a movie about a black king who is smarter than any white person, whose nation is technologically advanced ahead of (white) America, with a white villain and count on a majority white audience to ensure its success which your article suggests don’t want to see a movie with black people in it in general much less one depicted as above? Yep, that’s some sound reasoning there.

The causes could include poor script, limited director power, decreased funding, increased executive meddling, stuff I haven't thought of, or indirectly put a filmmaker in a position to be legitimately exposed to any of these things.

Any and all of these things are exclusive of race and therefore have nothing to do with your statement.

The penultimate piece is removing the idea of 1 to 1 correlation. A strong correlation does not suggest "incapability," quite the opposite, in fact. The fact that, from behind the scenes, with a specific case study, the cause and effect can be crystal clear, and overcome, as it was with Django, for instance. And that was an R rated movie with a lot of negative press behind it, and it still topped all of Tarantino's other films. So that prize is something worth striving for. The potential reward matches the risk, especially since the risks can be controlled.

More impenetrable tripe. YOU are the one that brought incapability into the subject with writers being incapable of writing black characters which I referenced. NOW you state incapability is NOT suggested?

So since it is so crystal clear, what was the cause and effect in regards to Django and how, exactly, was it overcome?

See, the question of why they would want to make the film is pretty much moot... they've expressed that want to make the film, the challenge is overcoming those obstacles that usually result in bad films. In Marvel's case, they've said they are waiting for a great filmmaker with a strong vision to come to them with something fresh and exciting and unlike what they've done before.

Yes, I remember Feige saying as much. What was it again? Oh yes: [Panther] has a lot of the same characteristics of a Captain America: great character, good values," said the Marvel exec. "But it's a little more difficult, maybe, creating [a world like Wakanda]. It's always easier basing it here. For instance, 'Iron Man 3' is rooted right here in Los Angeles and New York. When you bring in other worlds, you're always faced with those difficulties." Yes, I remember how everyone thought that sounded so reasonable and not at all off-putting. Or one from a more recent interview: EW recently held an extensive interview with Feige, who spoke candidly on a number of Marvel’s properties. One particular hero Feige stayed quiet on was Black Panther, who has been rumored to be getting the big screen treatment (or even small screen with Marvel’s Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. now ordered to a full series). While there’s no update on T’Challa, Feige did have plenty of other things to talk about. Yup, sounds like you know it all, cos! Hahahahahahahahaha! But seriously, respect.

 

[terry78]

What is going on?

 

[RockSP]

Couldn't tell ya. I've been skipping over most of the argument, especially after the BET/Fubu nonsense.

 

[Incrediblejeff]

This thread (possibly forum)has gotten really crazy recently.I think there's a reason I've been posting less.

 

[E-Man]

And FUBU....?
No one wears Fubu anymore

*slowly walks out of thread hoping that no one notices his FUBU shirt*

 

[roach]

*slowly walks out of thread hoping that no one notices his FUBU shirt*

sigh....get him a Sean John shirt...

 

[E-Man]

What about Karl Kani? That's still cool right, fellas?

 

[Paradox1]

That hasn't been cool since 1992

 

[E-Man]

Dammit! Next thing you know y'all will be telling me that Hai Karate isn't cool anymore either.

 

[RockSP]

What about Karl Kani? That's still cool right, fellas?

Yep. Here's a Cross Colours shirt to go with that.

 

[Paradox1]

Dammit! Next thing you know y'all will be telling me that Hai Karate isn't cool anymore either.

This +1000 ROTFL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtwh3nQP5Uo

 

[E-Man]

No more FUBU, Karl Kani, or Hai Karate...

 

[Spider - Man]

I've kept myself out of your discussion but the point you've made in the above highlighted portions reeks of insensitivity. Four hundred years of slavery wasn't something made up, being of a different race,sex,culture or sexual orientation actually got many people killed, persecuted,victimized and treated like second class citizens. I had to mention sexual orientation among the others because it just not blacks, who have their own channels, own political groups, and style of clothing. I have heard similar arguments from white men in real life and what I would suspect to be white men over the net. These kinda statements show an absolutely cluelessness and lack of empathy for the feelings and struggles of minority groups, If minorities don't speak for themselves how will speak for them? That doesn't sound like it would be you because a lack of their exclusion from Hollywood productions is not indicative of their prior struggles. Which I find funny because Ramon Estevez wouldn't have had to go by a different name early on in career if being the son of immigrants wasn't a problem. Bruce Lee wouldn't have had to go to China to become a star if those racial stigmas didn't exist.

Let me just say this will be my last post in this thread (‘yayyy,’ I’m sure) because it obviously isn’t my place. I apologize if I offended anyone with my remarks. That wasn’t the intention. Cosmic presented an article which stated white people avoided movies with black casts because they didn’t feel like they were intended for them. I merely presented a possible reason that they might feel that way but perhaps some of you who know more than me actually know the reason they might feel this way. I don’t think I said anything that was inaccurate OR insensitive. I didn’t say that it was right or wrong for black people to have their own organizations or whatnot. I think everyone would agree that there isn’t a segment of society, organization or institution that is exclusively white but there are many that are for black people. That isn’t a critique on right or wrong or how that reality came to be, it is simply a fact. Just like black people don’t like to be stereotyped by a minority of their population neither do white people. Most white people don’t live constantly thinking about something that happened hundreds of years ago mainly because no one is around today who even experienced that. I don’t sit around constantly thinking about the Jews plight during WW2 or the rape of the American Indians (which if you want to really get into the issue, is the ONE race that still is being neglected in America). Believe it or not, white people have just as many problems as anyone else. Whether blacks are under-, over-, or perfectly represented in the cinema won’t change my daily life one bit, nor I’m sure any of yours.

In case anyone missed it, I was simply being the other end of the extreme in my replies to cosmic since he went off the reservation long ago. The truth is, it makes me mad that they won’t do a Panther movie because I would love to see it. It makes me mad because I feel the reason they are so hesitant is because there is a group already primed to pronounce racism as the reason for the possible failure. Don’t say it isn’t so because there are posts in this thread stating just that. Everyone in this thread seems to agree that racism is a big part of Hollywood. I’d say Hollywood is aware of those perceptions, whether they are actually true or not. I’d say at the very least it has become a vicious circle - prior racism in Hollywood has caused black people to suspect that as motive behind low number of black films/failure of existing black films > moviemakers now skittish about doing black films because they know that the failure of those (whether from poor turnout based on white people feeling the film wasn’t for them or whatever) will be interpreted as racist sabotage on the filmmakers part > black people feel even more convinced that racism is still behind the lack of black films > studios even more reluctant to produce movies with black casts. Believe it or not, big companies do not like being accused of being racist.

In closing, we obviously all have our own ideas for the reasons why Disney will/won’t do a Panther movie. I’ll just say to cosmic and anyone else who disagrees with me – at the moment, there are no plans for a Panther film, it is not on the agenda for phase 2 and I don’t see room for it in phase 3. Feige’s remarks about why they might be having trouble adapting it don’t sound legit and hints that the true reason may be more in line with what I am saying than cos wants to admit. Again, all speculation but the fact that there is nothing on the agenda for Panther indicates that at least I might not be wrong.

I’ll leave you to carry on discussing casting/plot/whatever for this movie from the black perspective.

My statement BTW in case anyone needs to pick it apart for any inaccuracies - “We live in a world where it seems black people, while wanting to be accepted into and have access to anything a white person would simultaneously want their own organizations and institutions that proudly proclaim they are for blacks only. We live in a world of FUBU, BET, Black actors guild, Black Caucus, etc. Imagine ANYTHING in this country that was actually labeled ‘No Blacks Allowed’ and perhaps you start to see how one-sided this inclusion/exclusion might appear to be to a white audience. So perhaps the black community, in its desire to establish itself so separate from anyone else, is inadvertently responsible for this reaction by white audiences.”

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Blacks want equality and a distinct voice.

It's about having a cultural identity and having those differences acknowledged and respected while being protected by universal laws.

Not too unreasonable or difficult to understand.

 

[tdeverea]

Let me just say this will be my last post in this thread (‘yayyy,’ I’m sure) ...”

But why is your font so got-dam large?

Ok. Enough comedy. Let's get back to discussing what we think will make a comprehensive and bad-@$$ Black Panther film.

 

[DrCosmic]

Y'all are hilarious. Sorry for letting this argument spiral so far out of control. I hadn't even though of the health of the thread.

Yet you think people who have a problem writing black characters and marketing films with black leads want to make a movie about a black king who is smarter than any white person, whose nation is technologically advanced ahead of (white) America, with a white villain and count on a majority white audience to ensure its success which your article suggests don’t want to see a movie with black people in it in general much less one depicted as above? Yep, that’s some sound reasoning there.

Sigh. I thought we were making progress. I won't be re-re-clarifying any of my statements, especially not in a tit-for-tat quote war where we argue our arguments instead of the original point. I really did not appreciate the way you approached this debate.

This tidbit is interesting, though. Even though the article doesn't talk about setting, it does talk about the cast, and goes to what I was saying many pages ago. This a question that does need to be answered, and I believe it is the question Marvel is asking themselves, when they say how to do this other world, they're really talking about 'these other people' how does the majorit y audience see themselves here, and I believe Django and Hancock and Blade have answered it pretty well.

1) Include a heroic white friend who is helpful to the point of necessity
2) Include a black villain, minor or otherwise

I would add what they did with Django, specifically:
3) Show the journey to uberness

#3 is much the same way they're dealing with Man of Steel, I'd think... if the movie started with Superman in full costume beating people up, calling Superman Robots from the Fortress of Solitude, there'd be a lot of that "oh he's too powerful, he's not relatable." But when they see him as a child, when they see, first hand, where the Superman Robots came from and what they mean to Superman, I think it works better. Now at the same time, that made Django (and Man of Steel)

Hancock took the Thor route where the hero gets humbled thoroughly and has to earn his credibility and honor. Also workable, but not quite right for T'Challa. Blade... well... that dude was just hardcore... but I didn't much care about him as a person either. He was only interesting when he was kicking butt.

 

[H.U.S.T.L.E.]

Here's my personal opinion when it comes to all movies, regardless of whether the lead is black/white/asian/insertwhateveryouwant:

I ask myself, does that movie look like it's worth a $10 (or more) price tag to see in theaters? More often than not, that answer is no. If something intrigues me but I'm not sure if I'll like it enough to spend that money, I can always get it from Redbox for just over $1 a few months down the line. Let's take a couple of the movies talked about in this thread & I'll explain my reasoning for why I did or didn't see them.

Red Tails - This is one of the few movies I actually have seen that has been discussed here. I'm a big history buff & especially enjoy WWII history (Side note - if you've never seen 'The War' documentary by Ken Burns, definitely check it out). I went to see it in hopes that it would do the topic justice... unfortunately I was underwhelmed. There's multiple reasons for that, but it passed my test of "Would I want to spend $10 to see that?"

Django Unchained - Still have not seen the movie, mainly because I very rarely enjoy Tarantino's work. I find his movies to be gratuitous & self-indulgent, so I tend to stay away from them. Jamie Foxx as the lead character had zero bearing on whether I went to see the movie, and I enjoy him tremendously in other films (Ray & The Kingdom come to mind).

After Earth - Like Jamie Foxx, I enjoy a lot of Will Smith's work. While the Bad Boys movies take a lot of heat, I find them both enjoyable & have watched them several times each. Enemy of the State is another Will Smith movie I recommend to everyone... point being, I like his stuff. When it comes to his new film, I have zero desire to see it. The post-apocalyptic Earth storyline has been done to death at this point & from all the trailers I've seen, while the visuals seem well done there doesn't seem to be a ton of substance.

Coming full circle back to a Black Panther film - I've enjoyed every single one of the movies Marvel has put out since Iron Man, so I would definitely pay to see the movie in theaters. All of their films have passed the $10 test for me... I think we underestimate the consumer & point straight to other things. All in all, I think it's safe to say most people go to movies to be entertained and they don't want to waste their money doing so. Often times, it may just be a case of "That movie looks cool, I want to see that!" or "I'm not sure I understand the premise here, I don't want to waste my money." I would bet the average movie-goer puts far less thought into it, so to dissect the reasons some movies fail is just splitting hairs.

 

[Paradox1]

I really don't see why Marvel/Disney is taking so long to make this movie. When WB is making a movie about GIANT MONSTERS fighting GIANT ROBOTS, All this its hard to make excuses is straight up ******** I guess they rather make these fluff pieces that have little to no substance like the feel good story at the end of each news segment. Like firemen today brought young Timmy's cat from the tree or the girl was pulled from the well, geewiz she was brace. No wonder they can't keep a top notch director or talent who want to make thought provocative films.

 

[chamber-music]

Kevin Feige has said something about them picking movies that they think will either fit together with each phase or offer something different. Feige feels Black Panther is like Captain America, Thor and Iron Man in some ways.

Black Panther will probably be in Phase 3.

As for WB they still have yet to even use 90% of the DC superheroes they own.

 

[Red Mask]

I really don't see why Marvel/Disney is taking so long to make this movie. When WB is making a movie about GIANT MONSTERS fighting GIANT ROBOTS, All this its hard to make excuses is straight up ******** I guess they rather make these fluff pieces that have little to no substance like the feel good story at the end of each news segment. Like firemen today brought young Timmy's cat from the tree or the girl was pulled from the well, geewiz she was brace. No wonder they can't keep a top notch director or talent who want to make thought provocative films.

Giant robots are cool. I'd rather watch Evangelion 3.0 than this summer's Man of Steel.

Legendary Pictures produced 'Pacific Rim'. Warner Bros is the distributor.

 

[Paradox1]

Kevin Feige has said something about them picking movies that they think will either fit together with each phase or offer something different. Feige feels Black Panther is like Captain America, Thor and Iron Man in some ways.

Black Panther will probably be in Phase 3.

As for WB they still have yet to even use 90% of the DC superheroes they own.

I can see how their similarities he's all of them rolled in one give or take some strength and flight. However Black Panther in many ways is closer to Batman and we know the cash cow he has become. I've read Joss Whedon say he wish he could do a Batman film well Black Panther is as close to Batman as Marvel will ever get.

Lets not forget Legendary is also behind MOS as well, I think people unjustly accuse DC of only making films Batman or Superman related. Which is not true they just haven't used other members of the justice league in any live action movies yet.

Giant robots are cool. I'd rather watch Evangelion 3.0 than this summer's Man of Steel.

Legendary Pictures produced 'Pacific Rim'. Warner Bros is the distributor.

Hey don't get me wrong Pacific Rim looks awesome and is my number two most anticipated movie of the summer. Them making it may open up the possibility for more anime inspired movies like Akira, Battle Angel (Cameron make the damn movie already), Cowboy Bebop or Ninja scroll. By the way Man of Steel looks to be by far the best movie of the summer.

 

[RockSP]

I've read Joss Whedon say he wish he could do a Batman film well Black Panther is as close to Batman as Marvel will ever get.

Not necessarily. There's Moon Knight.

Lets not forget Legendary is also behind MOS as well, I think people unjustly accuse DC of only making films Batman or Superman related. Which is not true they just haven't used other members of the justice league in any live action movies yet.

Kudos on blanking Green Lantern from your memory If only I could do the same...

 

[roach]

Moon knight is nothing like Batman