Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 3

[SuperT]

Most other HBO show are about the same length, I know True Blood is most of the time.

 

[Sgt.Pepper]

Another great episode. The minute Harrenhal came into view, I thought "wow", it's almost exactly how I envisioned it would look like. They did a very good job at nailing the look of Harrenhal. Also, I wish Davos appear more, it has been a long time since I read the book but I remember faintly that he had a larger role. But maybe I'm misremembering his importance in the book.

 

[OsGom]

Stannis and Renly's scene was horribly underwhelming compared to the book. Guess they needed to give more time to Joffrey abusing 2 naked women
The beginning with Grey Wind was great, too.

The beginning scene was excellent. I hope we are given more Jeyne and Robb this season. [BLACKOUT]It will make the Red Wedding that much more profound.[/BLACKOUT]
[BLACKOUT]I really wish they would have encorporated her character more in the books. Instead we get Princess Arianna and all that Dorn junk.[/BLACKOUT]

Same with the ending. From what I understand [blackout]the shadow creature that the witch gave birth to, assassinates Renly[/blackout] so show it! instead of spending the final 15 minutes with conversation building up to it and ending the episode on revealing a plot device, show the plot device used and move the plot forward. Go from point A to point B rather than one hour of running place between the two.

The problems I see potentially impacting this show are directly related to the source material.

The characters are great and for the most part are being adequetely to brilliantly adapted to the series. There are just SO many characters they are trying to fit in that when translated to the show, each characters arc is lasting just a few minutes every episode. They are already having to omit characters and story arcs weekly to accommodate the hour long time frame. So next week we will get a little more Greyjoy, Jon and Bran (hypothetically) replacing Arya, Davos and Dany? It's just going to get worse moving forward.

The other issue is the tone of the story. I have read all the books and very little happens that anyone would consider positive or in anyway uplifting. I believe viewers will be hard pressed to stay with the story, despite loving the characters, if nothing good happens for them. In other words, are people going to remain devoted to show that is essentially a MAJOR downer for 5 or 6 seasons?

Plus, I love cliff hangers. I am a masochist like Goffrey.

If you were a "masochist", you would be the one in the bed with a scepter up your hole . . . Joffrey is a sadist.

I'm not liking how they are playing up this aspect of his character in the show. In fact the addition of the Roz character throughout the series seems like just a ploy to add more T&A to show already brimming with quite a bit. Her scenes are unnecessary, even if she has a great body.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Some of you are confusing masochism and sadism. Masochism is when you like having pain inflected on you, sadism, is when you like inflicting pain. You can be both though.

Reading about them, you get the sense that most Roman emperors were sadists. Hell, seems like most people were back in the day, with the endless, senseless killing and torturing. But then there wasn't much else to do at the time. There was an old evolutionary theory that humans were sadistic by nature. Largely discredited now, but you can see how they came to that conclusion.

Tyrion should have known better.

 

[DACrowe]

Unless you believe [BLACKOUT]R+L= J[/BLACKOUT], then yes Ned did do that first one.

Ned did what his code asked him to. This is the man who cut off a man's head for running away from the Wall. He would do the same if Benjen or Jon were the deserter. Is that any different from what [BLACKOUT]Stannis does to Renly[/BLACKOUT]? A man committing treason?

The rest, Stannis serves his God just like Ned served his.

Ned kills desserters who broke an oath they knew that was punishable by death. He doesn't kill [blackout]his men for unwanted advice or seriously consider feeding nephews (Jon) or innocent babies to the flames because a red priestess/witch he is sleeping with tells him too.[/blackout]

Also, I don't believe he would [blackout]kill his brother[/blackout] for a crown.

The thing is, it is Stannis throne. You skip over that fact like it is unimportant. It is the reason Ned and Jon Arryn is dead.

You think he be doing this if it wasn't what was right? That is Stannis in a nutshell and why I love him.

He doesi t because he is entitled to it.. But to paraphrase Varys, power is a trick, a shadow on the wall. Just because it should be his by law really means it is his. His claim is weak and he has to rely on evil magic to even come close. I just don't think he is the just and fair lord he imagines himself to be and many do. He is a utilitarian through and through. He will sacrifice anything and every last one of his principles to get his throne. That makes him a self-righteous blowhard to me. He got screwed over by Robert when he got Dragonstone and his younger brother who didn't even fight in the war got Storm's End. He got screwed over again when Robert made Ned Stark Hand instead of him. He is a bruised ego. Maybe when he held Storm's End and took Davos's fingers he was the honorable man. But wounded pride and the seduction of power corrupted him before he ever left Dragonstone, in my opinion.

 

[Thundercrack85]

It's debatable how creditable Stannis' claim is. After all, what about the Targaryens? The throne belongs to them, if you want to go by right.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

The Targaryen's are exiled. If Dany wants the throne, she has to win it back.

DACrowe, I'll reply to your post in the book thread. You can find it here: http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=23025343&postcount=346

 

[Thundercrack85]

My point is, that the Baratheons only got the throne because the public backed them. They are usurpers. If the public doesn't want them, then they have no legitimate claim.

 

[DACrowe]

I wish it ended with what happens afterwards with [BLACKOUT]Renly's death[/BLACKOUT] instead of the one we got, it certainly would've been more shocking but it's all right.

That Joffrey scene however felt tacked on, it feels like the series wants him to be more twisted than he is in the books, like he's the incarnation of evil itself or something, also I'm sure audience hates Joffrey, so why do they have the need to hammering it even more, and I thought the Qarth scene was a bit, awkwardly written.

Joffrey being into S&M doesn't surprise me. That's really the only scene they added for him not in the book. I don't think they're making him more evil. He was pretty purely that in the books. A complete sociopath. Tyrion sees that. Tywin sees that. Even Jaime comes to the conclusion that he is as bad as the Mad King and he is the father of Joffrey!

Joff is a sadistic little monster. I think the scene was a bit redundant given we just saw him torture and strip Sansa in the throne room. But it's not really out of character at all, in my opinion.

 

[Thundercrack85]

It's HBO, I'm sure gratuitous scenes are in the contract. But at least they're staying true to the character.

 

[squeekness]

That scene with Joffry and the two women wasn't in the book was it? I have no memeory of that at all.... Not that it would be out fo character for him or anything.

 

[rayc1971]

if robb doesnt want the iron throne why not combine with stannis to take kings landing?didnt jaime say ned could have taken the throne but let robert have it?robert and ned combined it seems robb and stannis should have too.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Because Stannis doesn't recognize the North's secession. And right now, they're trying just that with Renly, who would be more agreeable to an independent Winterfell.

 

[rayc1971]

Because Stannis doesn't recognize the North's secession. And right now, they're trying just that with Renly, who would be more agreeable to an independent Winterfell.

okay so you saying stannis would not let robb continue to rule the north but renly would.

 

[nite-owl]

It's debatable how creditable Stannis' claim is. After all, what about the Targaryens? The throne belongs to them, if you want to go by right.

[BLACKOUT]Stannis has some Targaryen blood in him.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[Thundercrack85]

okay so you saying stannis would not let robb continue to rule the north but renly would.

Pretty much. Renly seems to be a pragmatist. Stannis expects everyone to bend the knee to him. Apparently in the books he even says that he will take back the North. Here it's just sort of implied, by him calling all the other kings thieves.

Which should tell you something about Stannis, especially since he has the smallest army.

 

[Matt]

I'm starting to think you're looking for reasons to complain about pacing. You've become so determined that this show is moving slowly, you are now watching episodes with the mindset to find something to complain about.

On your weekly complaints.

1) Tyrion running train is great because it shows him thoroughly building power. Last week showed him getting rid of an enemy, gaining an "ally" in Varys, selling Myrcella to Dorne and generally becoming the primary power broker in KL. This week he is now starting to put Cersei in a corner by turning even her lover into his informer. All of which will have a great payoff. To me, you're argument here could be like someone watching S2 of Boardwalk Empire and complaining that every week we only see Nucky make a small move to reclaim his power or avoid going to prison and groaning that we haven't seen him use these moves to take revenge on the Commodore, Eli and Jimmy. It's slow burning with a purpose. If you like BE, I really don't know how you can be complaining about the scenes in KL (well besides the gratuitous sex scenes).

2) I actually agree. ( ) I think showing the payoff of the shadowbaby this week would have been a great ending that would have left audiences gasping. Instead, it leaves them just dumbfounded. What comes next is a better cliffhanger and works better than an episode opener. However, the buildup to the birth of the shadowbaby was great. The whole Davos-Melissandre scene was superb. It may be a "plot device," but it would make Hitchcock weep to waste one without draining it of its appropriate creepy value. The show took advantage of it. I just think the episode could have been 5 minutes longer. Maybe if they cut down the length of the Joffrey S&M scene, it could have fit. Oh well.

Quite the contrary, actually. I want to like it as I find the setting and characters to be interesting. That is why I haven't quit the show yet despite it's overly slow pace.

And your Boardwalk Empire analogy is off. Every episode of BE is self contained, it moves the greater plot forward (granted at a slow pace) while also telling a self contained and satisfying story or episodic arc. That is how a slow boil should work. It tells a greater plot (which moves forward slowly) while also giving the audience a sense of fulfillment and closure for each week's episode.

This is more like the recent HBO series Luck, where after watching for an hour, you felt like you were in the same place as the previous week.

A television series is episodic. Even if it is a serialized show, it is still episodic. It would be forgivable if this were a mini-series, but it is a full series. Therefore each episode needs to tell a story (even if it is part of a greater story). This on the other hand is treating it like a chapter of a larger story with no real regard for telling a self-contained story within a story.

The way Game of Thrones works can be done, but the pace needs to be faster. You can't expect your viewer to be satisfied with spending 6 episodes of people sitting around talking because it builds to the bigger plot (ask The Walking Dead producers). If you want to focus exclusively on the "bigger plot," with no episodic value the pace must be faster (like 24).

Boardwalk Empire is a slow boil, but it tells a satisfying story each week, GOT isn't doing that, IMO. I shouldn't have to know what is going to happen to justify it or have to look back in retrospect and say, "okay...those boring episodes sue did provide a lot of narrative clarity that made episodes 8,9 and 10 good!"

The problems I see potentially impacting this show are directly related to the source material.

The characters are great and for the most part are being adequetely to brilliantly adapted to the series. There are just SO many characters they are trying to fit in that when translated to the show, each characters arc is lasting just a few minutes every episode. They are already having to omit characters and story arcs weekly to accommodate the hour long time frame. So next week we will get a little more Greyjoy, Jon and Bran (hypothetically) replacing Arya, Davos and Dany? It's just going to get worse moving forward.

The other issue is the tone of the story. I have read all the books and very little happens that anyone would consider positive or in anyway uplifting. I believe viewers will be hard pressed to stay with the story, despite loving the characters, if nothing good happens for them. In other words, are people going to remain devoted to show that is essentially a MAJOR downer for 5 or 6 seasons?

When I decided that Martin's writing style wasn't for me, I started wiking some of the books and I agree with this. There is a reason that NO ONE is watching Boss despite it being one of the best shows on TV. There is a reason that no one watched Luck. Most audiences do not want to see nihilistic, evil always wins downer story lines. That will draw resentment from the audience very quickly, IMO.

 

[Buford The Sly]

Quite the contrary, actually. I want to like it as I find the setting and characters to be interesting. That is why I haven't quit the show yet despite it's overly slow pace.

And your Boardwalk Empire analogy is off. Every episode of BE is self contained, it moves the greater plot forward (granted at a slow pace) while also telling a self contained and satisfying story or episodic arc. That is how a slow boil should work. It tells a greater plot (which moves forward slowly) while also giving the audience a sense of fulfillment and closure for each week's episode.

This is more like the recent HBO series Luck, where after watching for an hour, you felt like you were in the same place as the previous week.

A television series is episodic. Even if it is a serialized show, it is still episodic. It would be forgivable if this were a mini-series, but it is a full series. Therefore each episode needs to tell a story (even if it is part of a greater story). This on the other hand is treating it like a chapter of a larger story with no real regard for telling a self-contained story within a story.

The way Game of Thrones works can be done, but the pace needs to be faster. You can't expect your viewer to be satisfied with spending 6 episodes of people sitting around talking because it builds to the bigger plot (ask The Walking Dead producers). If you want to focus exclusively on the "bigger plot," with no episodic value the pace must be faster (like 24).

Boardwalk Empire is a slow boil, but it tells a satisfying story each week, GOT isn't doing that, IMO. I shouldn't have to know what is going to happen to justify it or have to look back in retrospect and say, "okay...those boring episodes sue did provide a lot of narrative clarity that made episodes 8,9 and 10 good!"



When I decided that Martin's writing style wasn't for me, I started wiking some of the books and I agree with this. There is a reason that NO ONE is watching Boss despite it being one of the best shows on TV. There is a reason that no one watched Luck. Most audiences do not want to see nihilistic, evil always wins downer story lines. That will draw resentment from the audience very quickly, IMO.

Well I resent Boardwalk Empire for killing one of it's only two interesting characters off (Harrow being the other one). But I'll still watch it.

 

[cyborg ninja 14]

and I thought the Qarth scene was a bit, awkwardly written.

How many times do we need the fancy Qartheen saying "greatest city that ever was, or ever will be." Worst part of that exchange was the fat fellow pronouncing 'Xaro Xhoan Daxos,' which will be impossible to remember. I did however enjoy the overall mood and feel of the thirteen, as well as the picturesque entrance to the city.

 

[DACrowe]

if robb doesnt want the iron throne why not combine with stannis to take kings landing?didnt jaime say ned could have taken the throne but let robert have it?robert and ned combined it seems robb and stannis should have too.

He's trying to combine with Renly right now (hence Cat Stark being there), because Renly has more men (like 5 to 1) and looks like the more likely Baratheon brother to win. The show hasn't done a good job of showing both Baratheon brothers' reactions. Renly is being gracious and accommodating to Lady Stark, but it is also a gentle and veiled threat of "Look how big my army is. Watch what it's about to do to my brother's forces." He wants Robb as a subject, not a partner, because that means he'd have to give up half his kingdom.

Meanwhile, Stannis just comes out and says in his one scene with Cat that he intends to kill Robb Stark. Earlier he said, he'd never partner with Robb who is as much a traitor in his eyes as the Lannisters and Renly, because Robb wants half the realm (the North). In their meeting, he implies he intends to serve the same fate to Robb as all his enemies because of Robb's demand for the North.

Neither will partner with Robb, because of his claim as King in the North. Renly wants to scare him into submission. Stannis just wants Robb, like all the others he views as usurpers, to be punished for not pledging fealty to him.

 

[Specter313]

Might want to lose that pic, dude. Using a pic with that word, especially to a mod, will get you banned.

 

[DACrowe]

Quite the contrary, actually. I want to like it as I find the setting and characters to be interesting. That is why I haven't quit the show yet despite it's overly slow pace.

And your Boardwalk Empire analogy is off. Every episode of BE is self contained, it moves the greater plot forward (granted at a slow pace) while also telling a self contained and satisfying story or episodic arc. That is how a slow boil should work. It tells a greater plot (which moves forward slowly) while also giving the audience a sense of fulfillment and closure for each week's episode.

This is more like the recent HBO series Luck, where after watching for an hour, you felt like you were in the same place as the previous week.

A television series is episodic. Even if it is a serialized show, it is still episodic. It would be forgivable if this were a mini-series, but it is a full series. Therefore each episode needs to tell a story (even if it is part of a greater story). This on the other hand is treating it like a chapter of a larger story with no real regard for telling a self-contained story within a story.

The way Game of Thrones works can be done, but the pace needs to be faster. You can't expect your viewer to be satisfied with spending 6 episodes of people sitting around talking because it builds to the bigger plot (ask The Walking Dead producers). If you want to focus exclusively on the "bigger plot," with no episodic value the pace must be faster (like 24).

Boardwalk Empire is a slow boil, but it tells a satisfying story each week, GOT isn't doing that, IMO. I shouldn't have to know what is going to happen to justify it or have to look back in retrospect and say, "okay...those boring episodes sue did provide a lot of narrative clarity that made episodes 8,9 and 10 good!"

Just gonna' have to disagree, then. I really don't get how you can say the last two episodes have been boring or slow paced. In both 2.3 and 2.4 I got the sense we were at the end of the episode and I'd look at the clock and see it was like 9:51 or something like that and be in shock. I thought the episode had been on for like 20-30 minutes and it's really almost done! The last series that kept me that riveted was Mad Men and Rome.

I agree to an extent that not every episode has its own story arc. It is instead a chapter of a season-long narrative. However, I feel that sums up most of HBO and Showtime's dramas and almost all the ones I like (exceptions being The Sopranos and maybe Big Love). To me, the storytelling is very much like The Wire, Boardwalk Empire, etc. a slow burn. I honestly, think the pace is much faster than Boardwalk Empire. That's a great show, but I sometimes feel like the show is dragging its feet to stretch it out over 12 episodes. With GOT, I feel like every minute is vital (other than the 1-2 minutes of gratuitous sex each week) and that it's moving at a rapid pace. Boardwalk Empire has more in common with the deadly dull Luck and Milch's other cult darling, Deadwood, than Game of Thrones does. I've said before it's like The Wire meets Rome meets Lord of the Rings (with perhaps a bit of I, Claudius).

And comparing this to The Walking Dead is just silly. TWD's problem stems from nothing (other than Rick and Shane) really quite works on that show. Most of the characters are poorly written and boring/annoying and the season arcs since Rick found his family in episode 3 have been aimless. Just sitting around waiting to die, essentially. The only thing building was Rick and Shane's rivalry which is the reason it is the only thing in Season 2 audiences responded strongly to. Again, that has more in common with Milch's writing style.

But I'm going way OT now. Again, I respect your opinion on GOT's pacing, but I pretty much don't see it at all. Maybe in the first two episodes, but the season has found its footing and works fine for me.

 

[DACrowe]

P.S. This week hand "Will Gendry and Arya survive torture at Harrenhal" and "Will Dany be allowed into Qarth or die in the Red Waste" and "Will the Baratheons go to war" all asked and resolved. So, there is your self-contained story for the week.

 

[Matt Mortem]

That was a crazy episode last night. It's damned frustrating watching this story an hour at a time, a week at a time. I really don't want the episodes to end, especially when they end like this last one did.

 

[Crockett]

Joffrey being into S&M doesn't surprise me. That's really the only scene they added for him not in the book. I don't think they're making him more evil. He was pretty purely that in the books. A complete sociopath. Tyrion sees that. Tywin sees that. Even Jaime comes to the conclusion that he is as bad as the Mad King and he is the father of Joffrey!

Joff is a sadistic little monster. I think the scene was a bit redundant given we just saw him torture and strip Sansa in the throne room. But it's not really out of character at all, in my opinion.

I see it more of a **** you message to Tyrion since he stopped him from going further from punishing Sansa so he took it out on the ****es rather than him trying to get his "fix", but I dunno, I felt like since they had Sansa being punished in the very same episode it feels unnecessary to see him doing more evil deeds and at this point, we as a viewer have enough reasons to hate the character, so that scene felt more of hammering it to us with the whole look at this character, he's so evil.