Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 3

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm not exactly versed on the lore of Game of Thrones but by your logic, there is no rightful king of Westeros. After all, your argument seems to be that the will of the people does not matter, only tradition and who tradition says is the rightful king. Therefore Robert and Ned were committing treason when they overthrew Dany's father, even though the people wanted the Mad King overthrown. It matters not, because he was rightful king. So, the last real legitimate king of Westeros was Viserys. When he died the royal bloodline died. Therefore anyone, be it Renly, Stannis, or even Theon's father has just as much of a rightful claim as anyone else. Unless of course Jon Snow is really [blackout]Rhaegar's legitimate son, but that would be moot as he has given up any claim to nobility when taking the oath and there is not a king to pardon him.[/blackout]

[BLACKOUT]Jon's oath was completed the moment he died. His "death" gives him a clever out imo.[/BLACKOUT]

Robert's rebellion was valid and all things considered the Baratheon's bloodline (they have Targaryen blood in their line) gave them the right of succession. It was no different then how the original Targrayens took power over the kingdoms. According to the laws established by the Targaryens, after Robert's death Stannis would be the next in line.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

You should remove that spoiler.

 

[conan69]

Cersei loves her children, even Joffrey despite him being a little ****.

Theres a scene in ACOK between Cersei and Tyrion that makes it very clear Cersei is always concerned about Joffrey being killed, even by Tyrion! - we'll have to see if it makes it into the show.

One scene Im sorry didnt make it was Cerseis smackdown on Tyrion.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You should remove that spoiler.

What spoiler? I covered my one spoiler. The blood stuff is common knowledge at this point in the story.

 

[Matt]

Once Aerys was overthrown, the Targaryens were exiles and lost all claims to any titles or land in Westeros to the Baratheons. Robert won it and it's rightfully Stannis' since Joffrey and his siblings are bastards.

But by Darth's logic, there is never a lawful rebellion. Therefore Stannis has no more right to the throne than Robert did. And if there is a lawful rebellion (because the people do not support the king), then Renly is just as justified as Robert was.

Also, Balon Greyjoy doesn't want the Iron Throne, he wants to be an independent king, like Robb, and dominion of the North as well as the Iron Islands.

I was just using Balon as an example of how no one can really claim the throne by such logic.

[BLACKOUT]Jon's oath was completed the moment he died. His "death" gives him a clever out imo.[/BLACKOUT]

Robert's rebellion was valid and all things considered the Baratheon's bloodline (they have Targaryen blood in their line) gave them the right of succession. It was no different then how the original Targrayens took power over the kingdoms. According to the laws established by the Targaryens, after Robert's death Stannis would be the next in line.

[blackout]Jon dies? [/blackout]

As for Robert's rebellion, what makes it any more valid than Renly's? Robert did not like what the Mad King was doing. The people did not like what the Mad King was doing. The people rallied behind Robert. He overthrew the Mad King. If that is "valid," then so is Renly's claim. If the people do not support Stannis, then Renly (with Targaryen blood) is just as justified in overthrowing Stannis, right?

 

[DACrowe]

Then every time Ned executed a man, he was committing murder, depending on who you ask.

I will never take Robert's view on anyone. He lacks the honesty or perspective of men like Ned or Ser Barristan. Just look at his views on Lyanna and Rhaegar. Does anyone really think Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna?

Renly is committing treason. The King of Westeros has every right to take his head. He has been given the chance to repent. He has refused. What happens from this point on is his fault. He arrogant ass is so sure that his big army is going to protect him and slaughter his brother and his men.

Then Ned committed treason when he changed Robert's last will and testament. Robert bequeathed his throne to Joffrey. Ned changed it, because he thought it gave him a way out of recognizing Joffrey (incest-baby) as king. By Robert's own mouth, Joff is King. Therefore, Stannis is as much a usurper as Renly. And again, you're ignoring that if you think Renly is committing a capital offense by rebelling against Stannis (whose support is insignificant by Westerosi standards), then Robert, Ned and John Arryn should all be executed for rebelling against Aerys Targaryen. Aerys was the rightful king and Robert a usurper and traitor. Stannis is just another traitor who also should have been executed in that war by your logic.

In Westeros, lines of succession are not set in stone. Hiding behind that to excuse Stannis committing one of the darkest sins in almost any culture, [blackout]fratricide[/blackout], is weak. Stannis himself is haunted by it, as he repeatedly goes back to thinking about [blackout]Renly and the peach.[/blackout] I think his decision late in ASOS is as much him trying to make amends for his many dark crimes in both ACOK and for most of ASOS.

As he says himself, "The good does not wash away the bad, nor the bad the good." And Stannis has done many bad things. So much so, I hope he never sits the Iron Throne in the story.

 

[conan69]

^ This is one of the things I do love about the story. There is no clear answer, its all very messy. The Baratheons do have Targaryen blood in them. Really, with all the alliance building through marriages through the centuries, all the powerful houses should be somewhat related to each other.

Do you follow a King who roasts people alive, rapes, starves peasants, etc?

Jaimie has a great dialogue about this. Knights take so many vows that theyre bound to conflict with one another at some time - they eventually become meaningless and you have to create your own code ("There is no one else like me"). When your King tells you to beat a helpless 16 year old girl on her knees in front of the court, what do you do? Obey your king or uphold your oath to protect the weak and helpless? Juicy stuff, full of drama.





Matt, for your spoiler above, which I think should be removed altogether, the answer is... maybe.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

But by Darth's logic, there is never a lawful rebellion. Therefore Stannis has no more right to the throne than Robert did. And if there is a lawful rebellion (because the people do not support the king), then Renly is just as justified as Robert was.



I was just using Balon as an example of how no one can really claim the throne by such logic.



[blackout]Jon dies? [/blackout]

As for Robert's rebellion, what makes it any more valid than Renly's? Robert did not like what the Mad King was doing. The people did not like what the Mad King was doing. The people rallied behind Robert. He overthrew the Mad King. If that is "valid," then so is Renly's claim. If the people do not support Stannis, then Renly (with Targaryen blood) is just as justified in overthrowing Stannis, right?

[BLACKOUT]Most likely. Members of the Watch went Ceaser on him. But GRRM hinted heavily that he isn't really dead and most don't think he is in the fandom. My guess, extreme cold, plus his warg abilities, plus Mel equals him being revived in the near future as good as new.[/BLACKOUT]

As to Robert's rebellion, the Mad King had to be stopped. There is no valid reason for Renly to deny Stannis.

 

[DACrowe]

How does Cersei feel about Joffrey? I can't tell if she's uncomfortable around him or not...

She seems more uncomfortable around him in the show than the books, but she loves him fiercely. He is her favorite child and believes the two of them will leave a legacy that's line will be blinding in history.

 

[DACrowe]

Tyrion and Tywin. Or really, anyone sane on the Lannister side. For a puppet, Joffrey is a real nuisance.

Don't be surprised if that idea doesn't cross anyone's mind. However, Tywin (almost in a form of denial) believes Joff can be reeducated and still become a great ruler. Tyrion and, surprisingly, Jaime think Joffrey is a dangerous sociopath, but he is their family and they would not think of attacking him or hurting the family in such a way. At least not in the books.

 

[DawnWarrior]

Regarding the rat-in-the-hot-bucket torture: was I the only one who recognized that exact method from 2 Fast 2 Furious of all places?
[YT]gJ_cx3AmCuI[/YT]

 

[Matt]

[BLACKOUT]Most likely. Members of the Watch went Ceaser on him. But GRRM hinted heavily that he isn't really dead and most don't think he is in the fandom. My guess, extreme cold, plus his warg abilities, plus Mel equals him being revived in the near future as good as new.[/BLACKOUT]

As to Robert's rebellion, the Mad King had to be stopped. There is no valid reason for Renly to deny Stannis.

Sure there is. Joffrey is a second Mad King in the making. The people do not wish to follow Joffrey. Is their options are Joffrey and Stannis, who is to say they won't gather behind Joffrey? Especially when you consider that Joffrey controls a very important resource when it comes to winning the hearts of men (money).

Meanwhile, Renly clearly has a knack for inspiring the people and gaining their support and love. Something Stannis lacks that a leader needs. If the people are unwilling to follow Stannis and that means Joffrey will win the Iron Throne, Renly's rebellion is valid. I am not saying that Renly's motives are so pure. Clearly he is a bit egotistical, but his rebellion is just as valid as Robert's IMO.

 

[Matt]

Matt, for your spoiler above, which I think should be removed altogether, the answer is... maybe.

All spoilers are tagged.

 

[conan69]

I know, but thats a really big spoiler.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Sure there is. Joffrey is a second Mad King in the making. The people do not wish to follow Joffrey. Is their options are Joffrey and Stannis, who is to say they won't gather behind Joffrey? Especially when you consider that Joffrey controls a very important resource when it comes to winning the hearts of men (money).

Meanwhile, Renly clearly has a knack for inspiring the people and gaining their support and love. Something Stannis lacks that a leader needs. If the people are unwilling to follow Stannis and that means Joffrey will win the Iron Throne, Renly's rebellion is valid. I am not saying that Renly's motives are so pure. Clearly he is a bit egotistical, but his rebellion is just as valid as Robert's IMO.

Joffrey is also committing treason. He is not the King either. Stannis speech is all true. They are all imposters. That is why he even threatens Robb.

Renly's claim to fame isn't just his charisma. It is who he shares a bed with.

 

[Matt]

I know, but thats a really big spoiler.

But it is tagged.

Joffrey is also committing treason. He is not the King either. Stannis speech is all true. They are all imposters. That is why he even threatens Robb.

Renly's claim to fame isn't just his charisma. It is who he shares a bed with.

He still has united the people in a way that Stannis could not. And why isn't Joffrey's claim valid? Because he lacks Robert's blood? Robert acknowledged him as his heir in his dying breaths. The king appointed him as his heir, blood or not that makes his claim a hell of a lot more valid than any of the others.

 

[Marvolo]

Regarding the rat-in-the-hot-bucket torture: was I the only one who recognized that exact method from 2 Fast 2 Furious of all places?
[YT]gJ_cx3AmCuI[/YT]

I thought of it too. It made me squirm more in GOT however.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Then Ned committed treason when he changed Robert's last will and testament. Robert bequeathed his throne to Joffrey. Ned changed it, because he thought it gave him a way out of recognizing Joffrey (incest-baby) as king. By Robert's own mouth, Joff is King. Therefore, Stannis is as much a usurper as Renly. And again, you're ignoring that if you think Renly is committing a capital offense by rebelling against Stannis (whose support is insignificant by Westerosi standards), then Robert, Ned and John Arryn should all be executed for rebelling against Aerys Targaryen. Aerys was the rightful king and Robert a usurper and traitor. Stannis is just another traitor who also should have been executed in that war by your logic.

In Westeros, lines of succession are not set in stone. Hiding behind that to excuse Stannis committing one of the darkest sins in almost any culture, [blackout]fratricide[/blackout], is weak. Stannis himself is haunted by it, as he repeatedly goes back to thinking about [blackout]Renly and the peach.[/blackout] I think his decision late in ASOS is as much him trying to make amends for his many dark crimes in both ACOK and for most of ASOS.

As he says himself, "The good does not wash away the bad, nor the bad the good." And Stannis has done many bad things. So much so, I hope he never sits the Iron Throne in the story.

But it is tagged.



He still has united the people in a way that Stannis could not. And why isn't Joffrey's claim valid? Because he lacks Robert's blood? Robert acknowledged him as his heir in his dying breaths. The king appointed him as his heir, blood or not that makes his claim a hell of a lot more valid than any of the others.

If Joffrey's origin doesn't matter, why does Cersei acknowledge that admitting her and Jaime's relationship would invalidate Joffrey's claim to the throne? Not only in GoT but in [BLACKOUT]ASOS[/BLACKOUT] as well? There is a reason they dress him in the colors of the house Baratheon.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I'm not really sure what Tywin's goal is, but I assume power. Once the war ends he will return to KL and effectively be king. Why kill Joffrey and cause more unrest when Joffrey is effectively his puppet?

Considering that Joffrey doesn't even listen to his mother, is he really an effective puppet? He's one lyre solo away from being Nero.

 

[Matt]

But he doesn't really disobey on important stuff. Joffrey lets others run his kingdom while he tortures hookers and beats Sansa Stark. Twyin rules the kingdom while the puppet has his little indulgences.

 

[Boom]

The ending to last night's episode was creepy as hell.

 

[Thundercrack85]

But he doesn't really disobey on important stuff. Joffrey lets others run his kingdom while he tortures hookers and beats Sansa Stark. Twyin rules the kingdom while the puppet has his little indulgences.

He cut Ned Stark's head off!

 

[Sawyer]

Tyrion and Bronn = the dynamic duo of GOT

I want a spinoff of just the two of them.

 

[DACrowe]

But he doesn't really disobey on important stuff. Joffrey lets others run his kingdom while he tortures hookers and beats Sansa Stark. Twyin rules the kingdom while the puppet has his little indulgences.

Well other than killing Ned Stark. But everyone deserves a mulligan.

Seriously though, I agree with you. Tywin worries when Joffrey is an adult (16 in the book, probably 18 in the show) that he will become the dangerous, but he [blackout]tells Tyrion in the third book when discussing Joffrey becoming another Mad King that there is still time to change Joff's nature.[/blackout]

However, all he does is torture things. In the book he uses his crossbow to shoot bunnies let out of a bag one at a time and fires it at starving protestors (the Tyrells have blocked the food transports to KL) at the Red Keep's gate for fun. Cersei and Tyrion say that Sansa must live, so he has her repeatedly punched in the stomach and stripped completely nude before Tyrion shows up. While he's considering whether or not to drown Ser Dontos in wine, his uncle, mother and advisors are running the kingdom in another room.

 

[rayc1971]

i love natalie dormer but she looks to mature to play 16! why couldnt they find a 18 to 20 yr old to do the role and the nude scenes?