Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 4

[nite-owl]

Dat finale

So we can take it that Finchy is Ramsay Bolton then. I have to echo everyone's thoughts about the house of the undying. Also no Artisan Whitebeard.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

Noooo, this isn't self aggrandizing ego stroking nonsense at all Chicken Scratch. "HOW DARE YOU COMPARE THIS GREATNESS TO SOME LOWLY SERIAL YOU UNEDUCATED PHILISTINE!"

I get where you're coming from. One problem with GoT is I think the people who've read the books get a lot more out of the TV show. Having read the books, they know certain nuances of the characters or relationships shown and likely without even knowing it, fill in some of the blanks on things that the show either leaves out or just doesnt have time to cover. So they seem to care more about characters like Jon Snow and Dany than your average shoe viewer who only really loses their **** when Ned Stark gets beheaded or Tyrion almost gets his face slashed off since those two have gotten the most screen time in their respective seasons.

I love the show, but haven't read the books. Certain things happen on some episodes and even after watching an episode twice, I still have to check out the Wiki of Ice and Fire (or read a SpideyBat post ) before I really "get it."

Now I don't mind that at all. I'm not one who wants to be spoon fed every single detail, and I sort of like supplementing the show with the online facts from posters here or the related Wikis, but strangely enough and opposite of so many things in the genre, the book readers seem to be by and large a lot more forgiving of things with the show.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I don't. It isn't like this is revolutionizing television. Not in the way that The Sopranos, Lost or 24 (the defining dramatic shows of the past decade) did. If anything, this is just taking elements of eaqch show and combining them. It isn't changing the rules in the way that those shows did.

No love for The Wire?

 

[ChickenScratch]

Noooo, this isn't self aggrandizing ego stroking nonsense at all Chicken Scratch. "HOW DARE YOU COMPARE THIS GREATNESS TO SOME LOWLY SERIAL YOU UNEDUCATED PHILISTINE!"

Why do you think that when the guys who are involved said it's something new and different you take it as self-aggrandizing rather than people who work in the business, know their job and know when they are working on a special project. Can't a project be unique? An end in an of itself? Do you deny human creativity to the point that if something is new it must be railed against or forced to fit established conventions? It's storytelling, not paint by numbers.

The all caps is unnecessary, nor did I call you uneducated or a Philistine. But I will say that comparing TV shows designed as serialized TV shows is not fair to a story not initially written to fit that form, nor are they trying too hard to squeeze it into that form.

Yes there was a climax and an epilogue. Just like literary form, but ::gasp:: on TV. You say this is against TV convention, that end follows climax, but even in 24 it didn't just end after the last shot was fired. In fact the same form of climax then epilogue seemed to follow in 24 quite well, just like the climax that is then carried into CTU showing up, all being well ... then kidnapped by the Chinese.

 

[Matt]

I get where you're coming from. One problem with GoT is I think the people who've read the books get a lot more out of the TV show. Having read the books, they know certain nuances of the characters or relationships shown and likely without even knowing it, fill in some of the blanks on things that the show either leaves out or just doesnt have time to cover. So they seem to care more about characters like Jon Snow and Dany than your average shoe viewer who only really loses their **** when Ned Stark gets beheaded or Tyrion almost gets his face slashed off since those two have gotten the most screen time in their respective seasons.

I love the show, but haven't read the books. Certain things happen on some episodes and even after watching an episode twice, I still have to check out the Wiki of Ice and Fire (or read a SpideyBat post ) before I really "get it."

Now I don't mind that at all. I'm not one who wants to be spoon fed every single detail, and I sort of like supplementing the show with the online facts from posters here or the related Wikis, but strangely enough and opposite of so many things in the genre, the book readers seem to be by and large a lot more forgiving of things with the show.

Bingo.

No love for The Wire?

The Wire is good, no doubt about it. But it wasn't quite the game changer that those other three shows are. It is like House and The Shield. Tor tier, but not revolutionary.

Why do you think that when the guys who are involved said it's something new and different you take it as self-aggrandizing rather than people who work in the business, know their job and know when they are working on a special project. Can't a project be unique? An end in an of itself? Do you deny human creativity to the point that if something is new it must be railed against or forced to fit established conventions? It's storytelling, not paint by numbers.

The all caps is unnecessary, nor did I call you uneducated or a Philistine. But I will say that comparing TV shows designed as serialized TV shows is not fair to a story not initially written to fit that form, nor are they trying too hard to squeeze it into that form.

Yes there was a climax and an epilogue. Just like literary form, but ::gasp:: on TV. You say this is against TV convention, that end follows climax, but even in 24 it didn't just end after the last shot was fired. In fact the same form of climax then epilogue seemed to follow in 24 quite well, just like the climax that is then carried into CTU showing up, all being well ... then kidnapped by the Chinese.

Yes, producers hyping their own show is self aggrandizing. Just as your attitude is snobbish and often the equivalent to talking down to someone like a lowly philistine. You pull it in the Bond thread, you pull it here. No offense, you come off as a literary snob.

And the story telling techniques do not fit the medium. Just because it is new doesn't mean it works. Have you ever considered the reason TV sticks to it's story telling techniques and conventions is because they are what fit the more intimate and visual medium?

Game of Thrones is like Bruce Arians. Arians never changes his offensive system to fit the players. He expects the players to fit his system. Game of Thrones needs to adapt its story to fit television rather than attempting to cram the medium into its story.

[blackout]Sorry if the sports reference is too plebeian for you.[/blackout]

 

[Spidey-Bat]

I love the show, but haven't read the books. Certain things happen on some episodes and even after watching an episode twice, I still have to check out the Wiki of Ice and Fire (or read a SpideyBat post ) before I really "get it."

I hope that's a good thing. I do my best to give you enough to understand without completely spoiling things.

 

[ChickenScratch]

There is no offence, I am a literary snob, I'm not "pulling"anything as you put it. Does not change what the show is trying to achieve at all though.

Yes I have considered TV's storytelling method. It's the very reason this show is different, because it's not that nor does it try to be the standard hour long drama hitting all the beats. First 4 mins is the set up for the episode, opening sequence, 40 mins of investigation, character stuff, commercial break, climax 10 minutes to the hour, commercial break, epilogue/tease for next episode. If you are looking for that show then it's Xena and Hercules for you.

 

[mr. peasant]

Hmm... a thought just occurred to me. Jaime is the King Slayer after killing King Aerys. Margaery was married to King Renly and is now betrothed to King Joffrey. Does that make her the King Layer?


Yeah, just trying to lighten the mood...

 

[chamber-music]

Hmm... a thought just occurred to me. Jaime is the King Slayer after killing King Aerys. Margaery was married to King Renly and is now betrothed to King Joffrey. Does that make her the King Layer?


Yeah, just trying to lighten the mood...

Jamie's average commoner accent was funny

She never sealed the deal with Renly and I doubt she will with Joffery as he seems more intrested in torturing people than sex.

 

[Matt]

There is no offence, I am a literary snob, I'm not "pulling"anything as you put it. Does not change what the show is trying to achieve at all though.

Yes I have considered TV's storytelling method. It's the very reason this show is different, because it's not that nor does it try to be the standard hour long drama hitting all the beats. First 4 mins is the set up for the episode, opening sequence, 40 mins of investigation, character stuff, commercial break, climax 10 minutes to the hour, commercial break, epilogue/tease for next episode. If you are looking for that show then it's Xena and Hercules for you.

Case in point, snobbish attitude towards more "pedestrian," entertainments. It is off putting. You should tone it down. No one likes Niles Crane for a reason.

 

[mr. peasant]

Jamie's average commoner accent was funny

She never sealed the deal with Renly and I doubt she will with Joffery as he seems more intrested in torturing people than sex.

Fine. But we can all agree that Cersei at least deserves the title Kin Layer.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

No one likes a whiner either, Matt. You've been doing it since the season premiere. If you constantly complain about the show, watch something else.

 

[Matt]

No one likes a whiner either, Matt. You've been doing it since the season premiere. If you constantly complain about the show, watch something else.

That's just rude. I state my complaints articulately and eloquently. I am not saying you must agree with me, but I am certainly entitled to share my views. This is not the "Verbally ******e the Game of Thrones thread." If you don't like it I am sure there are many fan sites that you can go to that ban negative opinions (a TheForce.net of GOT type of site).

I have already said why I don't just watch something else. There are aspects of the show that I enjoy (and I say as much). That does not preclude the possibility of me also having aspects I do not like.

 

[mr. peasant]

No one likes a whiner either, Matt. You've been doing it since the season premiere. If you constantly complain about the show, watch something else.

Solution: You could take your own advice... if you don't like Matt's comments, don't read them. Saves yourself the agitation and keeps the thread's mood positive.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

That's just rude. I state my complaints articulately and eloquently. I am not saying you must agree with me, but I am certainly entitled to share my views. This is not the "Verbally ******e the Game of Thrones thread." If you don't like it I am sure there are many fan sites that you can go to that ban negative opinions (a TheForce.net of GOT type of site).

I have already said why I don't just watch something else. There are aspects of the show that I enjoy (and I say as much). That does not preclude the possibility of me also having aspects I do not like.

Calling people who have read the books snobs is rude, too. Every week it's the same thing. You come in complaining about no immediate payoff or you thought they wasted too much time on something, someone tells you it's developing to something big later, then you rant about how TV is a different media than books. I think you've only liked one episode this season. You're better off spending your time watching something you'll enjoy. At the very least, just wait to watch episodes in bunches next season instead of a week at a time. I did that last season, loved it, got me more interested in reading the books.

Knowing what happens later on, if you didn't like how they did things this season, you are REALLY going to hate when they get around to the 4th and 5th books. I really enjoy the series and found them a bit of a chore to get through compared to the first 3.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

 

[Matt]

Calling people who have read the books snobs is rude, too. Every week it's the same thing. You come in complaining about no immediate payoff or you thought they wasted too much time on something, someone tells you it's developing to something big later, then you rant about how TV is a different media than books. I think you've only liked one episode this season. You're better off spending your time watching something you'll enjoy. At the very least, just wait to watch episodes in bunches next season instead of a week at a time. I did that last season, loved it, got me more interested in reading the books.

Knowing what happens later on, if you didn't like how they did things this season, you are REALLY going to hate when they get around to the 4th and 5th books. I really enjoy the series and found them a bit of a chore to get through compared to the first 3.

I called Chicken Scratch a literary snob and he seems to be quite proud of it, so no harm no foul. Like Peasant said, don't read my posts. Or read them all in one sitting if that helps you. At any rate, please don't tell me how to watch TV.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

I called Chicken Scratch a literary snob and he seems to be quite proud of it, so no harm no foul. Like Peasant said, don't read my posts. Or read them all in one sitting if that helps you. At any rate, please don't tell me how to watch TV.

You have more posts than me in this thread. Kind of hard to avoid not reading your posts, especially when several people respond trying to explain things and then you just go back to complaining about TV being different than books.

 

[Matt]

Yes, because I do not agree that, "It happens this way in the book," or "The pacing is bad because the story doesn't pick up until season 3 or 4." is a valid argument. It is called debate, we are allowed to have them on a discussion board. If you don't like discussion with contrary opinions, no one is making you stay. Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

It's not a real debate though, it's you complaining and falling back on the same argument every time which is that it's a TV show not a book and thus should be more like every other TV show. The creators of the show clearly aren't trying to be like every other show and they have no reason to change their style since the ratings are strong and the show is incredibly popular and successful. The DVD and Blu-Ray sales set records within days for any HBO show.

If you hated this season, you're going to hate the rest as well.

 

[mr. peasant]

You have more posts than me in this thread. Kind of hard to avoid not reading your posts, especially when several people respond trying to explain things and then you just go back to complaining about TV being different than books.

However, books are different from TV. Books are less restricted in their length. TV shows are very restricted in their length (both, the duration of an episode and the number of episodes per season). Readers dictate how fast the story progresses. TV viewers, not so much (how fast the story gets told is limited by how much can be fit within the time frame of an episode). Readers get to decide when they put down the book - possibly even finishing it in a single sitting. TV viewers only get small chunks at a time and have to wait a whole week before getting the next chunk.

All of this figure into why these two mediums differ in what counts as 'good storytelling'.

 

[chamber-music]

Fine. But we can all agree that Cersei at least deserves the title Kin Layer.

For sure. They sure love their incest

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Matt, I do agree with some of your opinions, like not everything like it is in book, and that Jon and Dany, for the most part, have been uninteresting this season, but I liked how they ended the season finale because I did get the feeling that their stories will be more important next season.

Also, you're an elusive bastard.

 

[Matt]

It's not a real debate though, it's you complaining and falling back on the same argument every time which is that it's a TV show not a book and thus should be more like every other TV show. The creators of the show clearly aren't trying to be like every other show and they have no reason to change their style since the ratings are strong and the show is incredibly popular and successful. The DVD and Blu-Ray sales set records within days for any HBO show.

If you hated this season, you're going to hate the rest as well.

But that is for me to decide, not you. And if I don't like it I will keep saying the same stuff.

Matt, I do agree with some of your opinions, like not everything like it is in book, and that Jon and Dany, for the most part, have been uninteresting this season, but I liked how they ended the season finale because I did get the feeling that their stories will be more important next season.

Also, you're an elusive bastard.

Thanks, I try. t:

I'm not denying their importance. I'm denying my emotional investment. Dany's triumph should've been felt by the audience. When Jorah and the Dotharki (or however it is spelled) were cheering, the audience should've too. We should've felt vindication when she locked Xaro in the vault. I didn't because I don't care about Dany. Same with the ending. I should feel a pending sense of doom for Jon and the folk on the wall. I should fear for them. I don't because I barely know Jon and all of the men of the wall save Jon and the fat guy are jerks.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Fair enough, agree to disagree because I do feel for Dany, but I admit I haven't felt any sense of doom for Jon. I felt as though he was going to get out of that.