Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 8

[Mjölnir]

He's not the King in the North, he's the Lord Paramount of the North since the Starks are now an exiled house.



He went south to get Ned as roach pointed out. His biggest mistake was declaring independence. He should have declared for Stannis or Renly, told them to agree/fight amongst themselves but would swear fealty to whoever won. Coordinating with either one would have given them the advantage over the Lannisters. His presence in the Riverlands would have forced Tywin to divide his forces in the West and near King's Landing. The Tyrells only play for the winning side so it would have been likely they would join a Stark/Tully/Baratheon alliance. Plus, if Renly got killed, he could have married Margaery.

Not to mention the real war will be against the White Walkers. The Northmen would have be critical for that since they are the soldiers most capable of fighting in winter.

He's also Warden of the North, which will be the title actually used in practice.

As for Robb's actions, he tried to reach out to Renly through Catelyn. Had Renly not been assassinated there could quite possibly have been an alliance between him and Robb. Renly was willing to make one, and would even let Robb call himself King in the North as long as he swore fealty. That was pretty generous considering that Renly didn't actually need any more allies, had sorcery not been involved.

 

[Silvermoon]

Too Soon, Maisie Williams...

 

[Kane52630]

Have you guys seen this?

The 2nd video was perfect. lol

 

[Spidey-Bat]

He's also Warden of the North, which will be the title actually used in practice.

Wardens and Lord Paramounts are different. The Lord Paramounts are the great houses which go back to the original Seven Kingdoms before Aegon's conquest. The wardens are named by the king to carry out his laws in that region, though typically are certain lord paramounts (Starks north, Lannisters west, Arryns east, Tyrells south. In the book, Tywin wanted Robert to name Jaime Warden of the East after Jon Arryn died). With the Starks exiled, House Bolton is the new lord paramount of the North, all other Northen houses will swear fealty to them.

As for Robb's actions, he tried to reach out to Renly through Catelyn. Had Renly not been assassinated there could quite possibly have been an alliance between him and Robb. Renly was willing to make one, and would even let Robb call himself King in the North as long as he swore fealty. That was pretty generous considering that Renly didn't actually need any more allies, had sorcery not been involved.

He should have declared for one of them at the start, not let his bannermen name him King in the North. That caused the three of them to be uncoordinated, giving Tywin time to prepare.

 

[RockSP]

My favorite response on Twitter tonight: "Game of Thrones: for people who can't deal with the sunny optimism of The Walking Dead"

Heh.

This episode clinched it. I'm not reading the books until the entire series is over. I like being surprised.

I think that for the most part, when Whedon killed off a character, there was some grand sacrifice or gesture behind it.

Mind that I'm not complaining now, but with GoT, what makes deaths so hard to take is that for the most part, they are senseless.

I like it when shows/movies go against the grain of worn out cliches (like every "hero" getting a big moment before death). One example that comes to mind is Deep Blue Sea. It was a piece of crap movie, but the best part was the unexpected death of Sam Jackson's character. He was the biggest star in the flick, so I just knew he was going to survive...at least longer than he did anyway lol.

 

[Drizzle]

lol

and for the episode....don't name your child after Sean Bean or any of his characters.

I was going to name my son Eddard Boromir Trevelyan, but after last night I changed my mind.

 

[The Navigator]

I was going to name my son Eddard Boromir Trevelyan, but after last night I changed my mind.

The 006th of his name.

 

[Reek]

The 006th of his name.

 

[Victarion]

I went out and hugged my dog after last night's episode. The following is speculation on my part as a fan of the show; I haven't read the books, this is based off of what we've seen over seasons 1-3. Bran will worg into one of the three dragons and wreck stuff. Preferrably Drogon, since he seems to be the fiercest of the three.

 

[Mjölnir]

Wardens and Lord Paramounts are different. The Lord Paramounts are the great houses which go back to the original Seven Kingdoms before Aegon's conquest. The wardens are named by the king to carry out his laws in that region, though typically are certain lord paramounts (Starks north, Lannisters west, Arryns east, Tyrells south. In the book, Tywin wanted Robert to name Jaime Warden of the East after Jon Arryn died). With the Starks exiled, House Bolton is the new lord paramount of the North, all other Northen houses will swear fealty to them.

I know there's a difference, I just stated that Roose is also being named the Warden and that it is the title that's to be expected to be mentioned. No one ever talks about the Starks as Lords Paramount, even though they are, and such differs between the regions. Jaime actually was named Warden of the East, by the way.

And it's not as simple as that the great houses are Lords Paramount. The Tullys always refer to themselves as Lords Paramount of the Trident but they weren't a great house when Aegon came. They were ruled by the Greyjoys but Aegon gave them the Riverlands because they sided with him against Black Harren. Speaking of the Greyjoys, their title is not Lord Paramount but King of Salt and Rock. Martell has the same but with Prince of Dorne.

He should have declared for one of them at the start, not let his bannermen name him King in the North. That caused the three of them to be uncoordinated, giving Tywin time to prepare.

It wouldn't have changed anything. The likely choice was always Renly because he was the one with the power to win. Stannis was neither liked nor seen as having any chance to beat the Lannisters. It doesn't matter when Robb reaches out to Renly, it ends badly anyway due to Melisandre. There was also no way Stannis and Renly would have agreed to fight together.

The mistake Robb had power over was breaking his vow to Walder Frey. Had he not done that it might have gone differently.

Then again it could have gone well even as everything was if Edmure hadn't made his mistake (although a fair one to make in my eyes) repelling The Mountain at the Stony Mill. Especially in the book since then not only Gregor had gone under but even Tywin himself as it happens earlier there.

The outcome of the war depended on some small but crucial details.

 

[Drizzle]

The 006th of his name.

Hi-yo!!!!

 

[Sawyer]

I really love the Arya/The Hound of it all. In all this ****, somehow he, of all people, has become the safest person for her to be with.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I think that the decision Robb made to try and become king of an independent North was fine, especially since the Lannisters were busy fighting off another two claimants in the South.

Robb's big three mistakes were:

1) Sending Theon Greyjoy to his father which resulted in losing Winterfell.
2) Going back on his word to Walder Frey losing his support which was badly needed.
3) Executing Karstark which caused a good portion of his army to desert.

There is no defending those. They weren't decisions that went wrong, they were ones in which the outcome should have been seen before they were made and were by pretty much everybody but Robb. He made too many enemies.

 

[Kane52630]

I really love the Arya/The Hound of it all. In all this ****, somehow he, of all people, has become the safest person for her to be with.

I don't know why but that relationship feels like John Connor/T-800 for me. They really show it in this episode.

 

[Sawyer]

I think that the decision Robb made to try and become king of an independent North was fine, especially since the Lannisters were busy fighting off another two claimants in the South.

Robb's big three mistakes were:

1) Sending Theon Greyjoy to his father which resulted in losing Winterfell.
2) Going back on his word to Walder Frey losing his support which was badly needed.
3) Executing Karstark which caused a good portion of his army to desert.

There is no defending those. They weren't decisions that went wrong, they were ones in which the outcome should have been seen before they were made and were by pretty much everybody but Robb. He made too many enemies.

The first two were idiotic, but I really can't hold the Karstark thing against him too much. That dumb old **** didn't deserve to live.

Losing the army, yeah that sucked, but **** that guy.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The first two were idiotic, but I really can't hold the Karstark thing against him. That dumb old **** didn't deserve to live.

Karstark got what he deserved, but he had too much value and influence to just execute him. Robb executing him was just as dumb as Joffrey executing Ned. Robb and Joffrey are actually alike in many ways.

I haven't read the books so I don't know what is going to happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if Joffrey meets a similar fate down the road. He's only survived to this point because he has the Lannisters protecting him.

 

[Drizzle]

I don't know why but that relationship feels like John Connor/T-800 for me. They really show it in this episode.

I felt the same way. That scene where she stopped the Hound from killing the guy totally mirrored the scene in T2 when John stopped the T-800 from murdering the jock dude in the parking lot. I think it may have even been an homage.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

I know there's a difference, I just stated that Roose is also being named the Warden and that it is the title that's to be expected to be mentioned. No one ever talks about the Starks as Lords Paramount, even though they are, and such differs between the regions.

Bolton is still new the Lord Paramount of the North and Warden of the North. Just because the show may not explicitly state it doesn't mean it's not worth knowing. I think they might since Tyrion mentioned giving Harrenhal to Littlefinger and naming him Lord Paramount of the Riverlands.

And it's not as simple as that the great houses are Lords Paramount. The Tullys always refer to themselves as Lords Paramount of the Trident but they weren't a great house when Aegon came. They were ruled by the Greyjoys but Aegon gave them the Riverlands because they sided with him against Black Harren. Speaking of the Greyjoys, their title is not Lord Paramount but King of Salt and Rock. Martell has the same but with Prince of Dorne.

I know not every house (eg Tully and Tyrell) were one of the ruling families of the Seven Kingdoms, but they became a great house around that time.

The Greyjoys are lord paramounts of the Iron Islands, when they are under the authority of the Iron Throne. King of Salt and Rock is just another of their titles when they are an independent kingdom like Iron King.

It wouldn't have changed anything. The likely choice was always Renly because he was the one with the power to win. Stannis was neither liked nor seen as having any chance to beat the Lannisters. It doesn't matter when Robb reaches out to Renly, it ends badly anyway due to Melisandre. There was also no way Stannis and Renly would have agreed to fight together.

I think it would have made a difference. If Robb declared for Stannis or Renly, he wouldn't have attempted an alliance with Balon Greyjoy. If the Ironborn still tried to invade the North, he could have spared some troops to go back and defend it rather than have to bear the burden of the war effort in the Riverlands. And without Theon leading them, Winterfell would have been safe, at least for a longer amount of time. Losing the North was detrimental to his troops morale and contributed to Bolton becoming disloyal.

The mistake Robb had power over was breaking his vow to Walder Frey. Had he not done that it might have gone differently.

It was a big one, but I still believe not declaring for Stannis or Renly and attempting an alliance with Balon Greyjoy were more significant. If Robb was winning the war (not just battles), they wouldn't have turned on him.

Then again it could have gone well even as everything was if Edmure hadn't made his mistake (although a fair one to make in my eyes) repelling The Mountain at the Stony Mill. Especially in the book since then not only Gregor had gone under but even Tywin himself as it happens earlier there.

The outcome of the war depended on some small but crucial details.

Agreed.

 

[DACrowe]

I never thought of it, but you are right. In the book they are closer in age so there is that duality of one is the righteous boy king and one is the evil boy king. But they both make stupid mistakes. It is just Joffrey has Tywin and to a lesser extent, Tyrion cleaning up after him. Robb ignored advice from everyone.

Robb made a ton of mistakes. Actually, in many ways, he made worst mistakes than Ned or Cat. Still, does not mean he should have died like that. By breaking the Guest Rule in such a disgustingly gruesome manner, Walder Frey proved himself to be the most vile man in Westeros. That is saying something.

 

[Kane52630]

I felt the same way. That scene where she stopped the Hound from killing the guy totally mirrored the scene in T2 when John stopped the T-800 from murdering the jock dude in the parking lot. I think it may have even been an homage.

Yeah that was the moment where I realized it, it was definitely a nice homage.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I never thought of it, but you are right. In the book they are closer in age so there is that duality of one is the righteous boy king and one is the evil boy king. But they both make stupid mistakes. It is just Joffrey has Tywin and to a lesser extent, Tyrion cleaning up after him. Robb ignored advice from everyone.

Robb made a ton of mistakes. Actually, in many ways, he made worst mistakes than Ned or Cat. Still, does not mean he should have died like that. By breaking the Guest Rule in such a disgustingly gruesome manner, Walder Frey proved himself to be the most vile man in Westeros. That is saying something.

I still think Ned was worse. Telling Cersei that he knew about the true parentage of her children before telling King Robert was just insanity. Especially when he knew what kind of people the Lannisters were.

Like you said, Walder Frey broke a major social oath which at least gave Robb reason to think he was being trustworthy.

 

[Sawyer]

Ned = Sansa

I saw someone online say it and it just clicked with me. She started this series believing in her little fairy tale ideals and happy endings and so on, and in a slightly different way, Ned was the same. His belief in honor kept him from seeing the value in playing the game.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

I still think Ned was worse. Telling Cersei that he knew about the true parentage of her children before telling King Robert was just insanity. Especially when he knew what kind of people the Lannisters were.

Like you said, Walder Frey broke a major social oath which at least gave Robb reason to think he was being trustworthy.

To be fair to Ned, he gave in to the Lannister's demands; he "confessed" to trying to take the Throne for himself and recognized Joffrey as the rightful king. However, Joffrey wanted his head anyway. If he let him take the black, the Lannisters only would have had to worry about Renly and Stannis.

 

[Reek]

Poor Ned. all he wanted was to stay in Winterfell and be left alone.

 

[Thundercrack85]

To be fair to Ned, he gave in to the Lannister's demands; he "confessed" to trying to take the Throne for himself and recognized Joffrey as the rightful king. However, Joffrey wanted his head anyway. If he let him take the black, the Lannisters only would have had to worry about Renly and Stannis.

I don't know about that. Ned might have gone to the Wall (out of honor and everything), but with Robert dead, and Joffrey being a Lannister (the son of the man who tried to murder Bran), it seems inevitable that the Starks would go to war with the Lannisters and side with Stannis.

Plus you know, Joffrey being a Mad King in the making sort of makes longterm peace difficult.