Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 9

[Project862006]

 

[Reek]

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Greyscale. I haven't read far enough into the books to know the whole deal with it, but I think it's been said that it's sort of leprosy-like and a result of the moist environment of Dragonstone.

All I could think was...damn, they are some ****ing vain mother****ers. I thought she'd be some kind of hunchback mutant with claws and a tail or something...horrible.

But when I saw her, all I can think of was, "That's it? THAT is why she's locked in a tower??!" She doesn't look like some horrible demon child I thought she'd be. She gets trapped in a tower, and the Hound roams free? Madness, I say.

The King who lost the North.

Robb wasn't a brilliant strategist...he made a lot of mistakes. The Lannisters were in the capital and Robb used that to his advantage to win small battles. He couldn't see the long game like Tyrion or Tywin.

But, he did see the long game, which is why he wanted to take Casterly Rock. He knew his victories were small, so he was fully aware of it. It's why he wasn't satisfied with those small victories. And really, capturing Casterly Rock would have been a huge victory.

I'm not sure how Tywin was playing the long game. He had an opportunity to nullify all the prowess that Robb had, and took it. I don't see how he could have planned, from the very start, to have one of Robb's own Bannermen backstab him.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Robb was a terrible king.

Sure he wins most battles, but he makes terrible decisions consistently. First he sends Theon (a hostage) back to his family... a family who hate the Starks, and have no incentive to help them. Then he insults a key ally to marry a commoner... and then there's the whole Karstark execution.

Honestly, if it wasn't the Red Wedding it would have been something else.

 

[Sawyer]

Robb was basically a kinder, better-looking, better mannered and more well-liked Joffrey.

 

[Roose Bolton]

All I could think was...damn, they are some ****ing vain mother****ers. I thought she'd be some kind of hunchback mutant with claws and a tail or something...horrible.

But when I saw her, all I can think of was, "That's it? THAT is why she's locked in a tower??!" She doesn't look like some horrible demon child I thought she'd be. She gets trapped in a tower, and the Hound roams free? Madness, I say.

She isn't locked away against her will or anything, it's just that she and her mother have mostly been kept separate from Stannis during his war councils. I mean she can obviously get out and see Davos. It's just that she's the only child in the castle so she lives a very lonely life.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Robb was a terrible king.

Sure he wins most battles, but he makes terrible decisions consistently. First he sends Theon (a hostage) back to his family... a family who hate the Starks, and have no incentive to help them. Then he insults a key ally to marry a commoner... and then there's the whole Karstark execution.

Honestly, if it wasn't the Red Wedding it would have been something else.

Theon was like a brother to him, and it made sense to try and get the Greyjoy's to join his cause. Sending Theon made sense, and he trusted him like a brother. What Karkstark did was unforgivable, and there Robb was trapped by his honor to do what needed to be done. If he allows Karkstark to walk away from what he did, then he would have been a truly bad King...and probably would have seemed weak to his own men for allowing such a thing to slide.

His only mistake, that was truly all his doing...was falling in love and marrying someone else, rather than who he was had been promised to.

I would argue the Karkstark incident was entirely Catelyn's fault. She released Jaime, which let Karkstark's son's death go unavenged which led to Karkstark's murdering those two Lannister children...which then led to Robb having to handle it...which then led to Robb needing to plug the hole left from the lack of Karkstark support, making him need Frey's support.

On the one instance where he didn't follow his code of honor, but instead his heart, was his real mistake that cost him. Politically, atleast. The rest seemed so...inevitable.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Oh God....

 

[rayc1971]

robb made 2 big mistakes not keeping his word to walter frey and the karstark beheading that should not diminish him on the battlefield capturing Jaime lanister is no small feet

 

[Sawyer]

The real issue with Robb is that he payed no mind to what any of the more experienced people around him had to say. Every King needs a Hand.

 

[rayc1971]

The real issue with Robb is that he payed no mind to what any of the more experienced people around him had to say. Every King needs a Hand.

true I wonder if theon would have been his hand of the king if he had not sent him away.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Wait did Robb have a Hand?

 

[Sawyer]

Not really. Just a rotating group of people he continually tells "Thanks for your input, but I'm gonna do things my way."

 

[Mjölnir]

Really? He expects people to not hate a character that wished another (who happens to be a favorite) was crippled and then becomes a horrible mother by neglecting her two youngest children and home which leads to their death (as she believes)?

Book Catelyn is a *****. They did a better job making her likable. Instead of telling Jon he should be the one that's cripple, she just gives him an icy stare. Then the scene this season where she talks about the time she watched over Jon when he was sick, telling the gods she'd be a mother to him if he recovered, then went back on her promise and feels guilty it caused their recent tragedies.

She's mostly hated for making the wrong decisions and the arguments often sound like they are from people that don't like the characters to have flaws. As for her wish upon Jon, it was in a completely broken down state emotionally so hardly her regular self. Robb was also in most need of her children (of the ones she could reach) and the blame she puts on herself for Bran and Rickon is just the kind of blame a mother gets, it was never even remotely realistic that her presence there would have changed anything. I think she's a great character that really feels human, which includes making mistakes.

It's also funny since a good deal of people called the second scene you mention "character assassination". I didn't think so but there was quite an uproar about it.

I think women more easily get hated for mistakes as well though. You rarely hear people attack Ned for bringing home a bastard child to your wife, whom you don't really know that well by then, and refuse to explain yourself or even talk about it at all. That's truly what Catelyn resents with Jon, not really Jon himself.

Again it ruins the surprise. This moment should be well after the events of RW. That way, it the game changing level of what is happening can be savored.

I can't see it ruining the surprise, it just moves the place of it. On TV it's "show, don't tell" so I'd expect to see the initial event. I don't think it's been very game changing either.

 

[Mjölnir]

He has called Stannis righteous.

As person Stannis is pretty unlikeable, he's extremely antisocial for a Baratheon and his stubbornness is frustrating to all around him. As a human being you wouldn't want to be Stannis' friend.

But at the same time he's just so relentless and unyielding in his devotion to justice, and so much of an immovable object that it's a joy to read him. Also you gotta love how little he cares about Davos' lowborn nature.

He is righteous, but to a fault (surprisingly with a couple of exceptions though). I like Donal Noye's words about the Baratheon brothers.

"Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day."

I like Stannis, but he's lucky to have Davos.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I'll be the first to name Stannis' many faults, but he's still a better man than the show would have most think.

 

[TheFuture]

Have to say that I really feel sorry for Theon, that's something I never thought I'd say. You have to admire his initial resoluteness about being Theon Greyjoy and not Reek, even after all the Bolton Bastard put him through.

Add to that that his father really is a deplorable human being and in a lot of ways, is even more of a despicable human being than Tywin Lannister.

There's an interesting comparison from both men in the finale: while Balon is seemingly happy to cast his son aside now that he is "useless" to him, Tywin explained to Tyrion that even though he sees him as a cross to bear that he wanted to drown the day he was born, he didn't....because he's a Lannister. Tywin is undoubtedly twisted and treats his children horrendously, but he's still a loving father in a lot of ways.

 

[chamber-music]

Roose Bolton was giving Robb advice all the time which Robb ignored. Roose plays the game far better than Robb did. In the end Roose sided with Tywin because he knew Robb would never win and didn't have what it takes to really survive as a leader in Westeros.

 

[Mjölnir]

I'll be the first to name Stannis' many faults, but he's still a better man than the show would have most think.

I think the show has gone both ways on him. Stannis leading his men when storming the walls of King's Landing in Blackwater was something that endeared him to many viewers, and that's not the kind of leader he is in the books.

Have to say that I really feel sorry for Theon, that's something I never thought I'd say. You have to admire his initial resoluteness about being Theon Greyjoy and not Reek, even after all the Bolton Bastard put him through.

Add to that that his father really is a deplorable human being and in a lot of ways, is even more of a despicable human being than Tywin Lannister.

There's an interesting comparison from both men in the finale: while Balon is seemingly happy to cast his son aside now that he is "useless" to him, Tywin explained to Tyrion that even though he sees him as a cross to bear that he wanted to drown the day he was born, he didn't....because he's a Lannister. Tywin is undoubtedly twisted and treats his children horrendously, but he's still a loving father in a lot of ways.

I agree with everything, apart from that I don't think Tywin loves Tyrion at all. He gives Tyrion what respect he can becuase he's a Lannister and the family name means more than anything else to Tywin, even more than the actual people in the family.

 

[Pink Ranger]

It's interesting that Tyrion would have had a much more hellish life had be been born into any other of the royal families, except maybe the Starks.

 

[Mjölnir]

It's interesting that Tyrion would have had a much more hellish life had be been born into any other of the royal families, except maybe the Starks.

Well, officially House Lannister isn't a royal house as Joffrey is named Baratheon.

But perhaps you just refer to the great houses? In that case I'm not too sure he'd have it worse if he was a Tyrell or an Arryn. If he was a Greyjoy he'd certainly be killed in his infancy though and it's a bit tough to estimate how the Baratheons would have handled it. The Martells haven't been on the show yet so I'lll leave them out.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Have to say that I really feel sorry for Theon, that's something I never thought I'd say. You have to admire his initial resoluteness about being Theon Greyjoy and not Reek, even after all the Bolton Bastard put him through.

Add to that that his father really is a deplorable human being and in a lot of ways, is even more of a despicable human being than Tywin Lannister.

There's an interesting comparison from both men in the finale: while Balon is seemingly happy to cast his son aside now that he is "useless" to him, Tywin explained to Tyrion that even though he sees him as a cross to bear that he wanted to drown the day he was born, he didn't....because he's a Lannister. Tywin is undoubtedly twisted and treats his children horrendously, but he's still a loving father in a lot of ways.

I think with Theon, he is a fool for what he did and how he blindly stuck to his mistakes...but I don't think anyone deserves what he has (and will) suffer at the hands of Ramsay, he's probably the most tragic character in the series.

 

[MLSkinner]

I think the show has gone both ways on him. Stannis leading his men when storming the walls of King's Landing in Blackwater was something that endeared him to many viewers, and that's not the kind of leader he is in the books.


I agree with everything, apart from that I don't think Tywin loves Tyrion at all. He gives Tyrion what respect he can becuase he's a Lannister and the family name means more than anything else to Tywin, even more than the actual people in the family.

I agree. He gives not two ****s about his family members personally, just his family legacy. Tyrion actually owned him by saying its easy for him to say when he makes all the decisions. As for Robb, the Karstarks would've never followed him any way, their lord insulted him all the way to his beheading. It was a lose lose situation. But the old bastard would've either left him or betrayed him as Bolton did. And I do think he made the right decision by trying to get Balon to join him, problem is he should've sent Bolton instead of Theon. Never send someone who's personally tied to the matter. I do believe if Theon would've stayed by Robb things would've been better. He would take a brother's input more seriously.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Well, officially House Lannister isn't a royal house as Joffrey is named Baratheon.

But perhaps you just refer to the great houses? In that case I'm not too sure he'd have it worse if he was a Tyrell or an Arryn. If he was a Greyjoy he'd certainly be killed in his infancy though and it's a bit tough to estimate how the Baratheons would have handled it. The Martells haven't been on the show yet so I'lll leave them out.

True enough, I meant the noble houses or great houses then.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I'll be the first to name Stannis' many faults, but he's still a better man than the show would have most think.

Must be true. Because on the show, with no knowledge of how he is in the books, he kinda seems like a prick. Well, a prick with puppet strings. The closest I saw him to being his own person was when he went down to the cells to seek Davos' counsel. It looks like, atleast from the show, that Melisandre is pulling all of Stannis' strings.

Roose Bolton was giving Robb advice all the time which Robb ignored. Roose plays the game far better than Robb did. In the end Roose sided with Tywin because he knew Robb would never win and didn't have what it takes to really survive as a leader in Westeros.

I got the feeling it had nothing to do with Robb's chances, but Roose not wanting to be brown nosing the Starks the rest of his life. If he's always resented the Starks, maybe with some perceived holier than thou moral high horse standard the Starks can come off with, and he wanted to rise up in the world. I'd say he accomplished that, since now he's the Warden of the North. It seemed more like a move he made to not be stuck in the Westeros version of an office job the rest of his life.

Roose is a spineless punk, though, so I have a hard time giving him any props. I'd easily give Tywin or even Frey more props than I would Roose.

I think with Theon, he is a fool for what he did and how he blindly stuck to his mistakes...but I don't think anyone deserves what he has (and will) suffer at the hands of Ramsay, he's probably the most tragic character in the series.

Yeah. As tragic as the Red Wedding was...and even with the desecration of Robb's body right after, I'd take that fate a hundred times over the fate Theon has been dealt. I don't think I've ever wanted a mercy kill as badly as I have watching what Theon's going through.