Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 9

[Pink Ranger]

I imagine this was his rate before he Star Trek, haha.

That is correct. Now, it's $950.

 

[Mjölnir]

Late in the game discussing. But I'm on my GFs schedule for watching GoT. I have zero interest in watching it (I watch with her - couples thing). After reading all of the books I'm with the group of people that is over it.

Two things have struck me about GRRM:

1. 
   His writing seems based on Law of Instrument. "I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail". That's why you see so many jokes about the end being "everyone dies".

• A Broken Clock is Right Twice a Day. See Stark, Eddard, Wedding, Red.

Up to this point I thought he was a damn genius. Unfortunately he just keeps going back to this "death (and punishment) well" over and over again. It's like a cliche. I got conditioned to expect it and it just ruined the ride.

I've come to feel that (for me) he is a hack that got lucky with two story events and he's shown no ability to do anything else.

Note: the above is my opinion and is not better or more worthy then anyone who see's Martin as a genius

A lot of people on here have read the books, so I'd like to know what you folks think the audience will do moving forward. I can see my GF destroyed about this ep. Pissed. Etc. But she will keep going because let's be honest; at this point this series is ripping your heart out. The old "fool me once routine" would dictate no death will shock from here on in. TV audiences aren't book readers (yes that's a generality, there are lots of people that do both - I hope you get the point), and I don't think they'll stick this out like the book readers did. Thoughts?

That you don't like it is fine, we all enjoy different things, but I'm surprised that you call him a hack that can only kill characters. I would have thought that most people could give him credit for the incredible amount of coherent detail that goes into the story. How things are subtly foreshadowed many times (and at times extremely far in advance) through prophecy (which is almost never literal), history or other things. The identity of Jon's mother is one of the less subtle hints but you get several clues in the first book (not so much in the TV show though, so I'm not even semi-spoiling anything) and still the majority of the readers don't catch it until rereads (or Internet discussions, as the case often is). It's not easy to weave such an intricate plot and have it work both in the open and in the hidden meaning.

I also think he's good at creating many varied characters that all have depth. The POV chapters don't only delve into the active thoughts of the characters but also are written differently in general description etc due to the differences between their perceptions.

I take no offense at your opinion but I'd be interested in hearing about whether or not you see the two examples (I could name more that I think he does well, but it's not necessary) as something that takes talent or if you just disagree with me and don't think he manages to do that.

As for your question I don't see anything this far that indicates that events like these drive away the audience. The last episode of season 1 had the highest ratings of the season and the reactions to Ned dying were not very different from RW. I expect the last episode of season 3 to have the highest rating as well. I think there's a bigger risk that the lower tempo of the middle of the overall series can get some people turned off, as there are some readers that liked Feast and Dance less than the ones before. As for being chocked by deaths, I think that it's at least as much that the characters are well developed as it is that it's unusual to kill main characters horribly that affect viewers.

When it comes to his novellas about Dunk & Egg I can too confirm that they have a different tone. They are set a little less than a century before the main story and they subtly provide quite a deal of relevant background information for the novels (some quite major things).

 

[jonathancrane]

Sorry for the typographical error: I thought I deleted 'he', but, guess I did not.

 

[TheFuture]

Poor Arya. Her life probably feels like one long, sick joke by now. The last time she saw any of her family was when her dad's head rolled. Now after being on the road for, what, a year and a half? She gets so close to being reunited with her family and they're all dead too. I guess it's off to Braavos for that ninja training.

I would guess that Sansa has a big survivor's-guilt-fueled meltdown in her future. Ned offered to get her out of KL and find her a match, "someone brave and gentle and strong" but she chose to stay and marry Joffrey, even though she'd already seen what a monster he was, she insisted on hanging onto those girlish fantasies about finding her prince. It wouldn't take much for her to believe that if she'd said yes, Ned might not have been killed and the war might not have happened. I see her giving Tyrion some kind of tearful confession where she's all "My mother, my father, all my brothers, they all died because of me!!!"

I wouldn't worry about Arya. Sansa on the other hand....

Spoiler

I'd love it if they went against the books and let Sansa off Joffrey. The Starks deserve some sort of satisfaction and there's no more perfect opportunity than Sansa avenging her horrific treatment.

 

[jonathancrane]

I would prefer they not change the circumstances.

She defended him countless times and contributed to the death of the butcher's boy; doing that would undercut the characterization.

 

[Sawyer]

Yeah, changing that around would be pretty weak.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I wouldn't worry about Arya. Sansa on the other hand....

Spoiler

I'd love it if they went against the books and let Sansa off Joffrey. The Starks deserve some sort of satisfaction and there's no more perfect opportunity than Sansa avenging her horrific treatment.

This isn't about satisfaction. It's about pieces fitting together. If you're expecting comeuppance or poetic justice, you're watching the wrong show.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

A lot of people on here have read the books, so I'd like to know what you folks think the audience will do moving forward. I can see my GF destroyed about this ep. Pissed. Etc. But she will keep going because let's be honest; at this point this series is ripping your heart out. The old "fool me once routine" would dictate no death will shock from here on in. TV audiences aren't book readers (yes that's a generality, there are lots of people that do both - I hope you get the point), and I don't think they'll stick this out like the book readers did. Thoughts?

I think this week will determine if people give up on the show or not. I'm guessing there will be strong hints that [blackout]Joffrey is the next one to get the axe which will be a relief to many[/blackout].

I disagree that Martin's only schtick is killing off characters. His point is to not make this a typical fantasy with heroes and villains. 80-pages into the first book, we have Jaime throwing a boy out a window and crippling him. Two books later, we actually start to like Jaime. I think where his story is weak

(nothing explicitly spoiled but I'll tag it anyway)

Spoiler

is how scattered the characters are now compared to the first 3. You had a lot more intersecting POVs that made everything feel more centralized, you got different perspectives on the same events. Whereas that's not been the case in the last two. But since AFFC and ADWD were kind of a mess, I'm holding out hope that TWOW and ADOS start bringing things together and setting up the end game.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[jonathancrane]

I think this week will determine if people give up on the show or not. I'm guessing there will be strong hints that [blackout]Joffrey is the next one to get the axe which will be a relief to many[/blackout].

I disagree that Martin's only schtick is killing off characters. His point is to not make this a typical fantasy with heroes and villains. 80-pages into the first book, we have Jaime throwing a boy out a window and crippling him. Two books later, we actually start to like Jaime. I think where his story is weak

(nothing explicitly spoiled but I'll tag it anyway)

Spoiler

is how scattered the characters are now compared to the first 3. You had a lot more intersecting POVs that made everything feel more centralized, you got different perspectives on the same events. Whereas that's not been the case in the last two. But since AFFC and ADWD were kind of a mess, I'm holding out hope that TWOW and ADOS start bringing things together and setting up the end game.

During the panel they had before the season premiere, Martin said he is trying to bring the characters back together(if I recall correctly, he compared said movements to a delta or something along the lines.)

 

[Mjölnir]

I think this week will determine if people give up on the show or not. I'm guessing there will be strong hints that [blackout]Joffrey is the next one to get the axe which will be a relief to many[/blackout].

I disagree that Martin's only schtick is killing off characters. His point is to not make this a typical fantasy with heroes and villains. 80-pages into the first book, we have Jaime throwing a boy out a window and crippling him. Two books later, we actually start to like Jaime. I think where his story is weak

(nothing explicitly spoiled but I'll tag it anyway)

Spoiler

is how scattered the characters are now compared to the first 3. You had a lot more intersecting POVs that made everything feel more centralized, you got different perspectives on the same events. Whereas that's not been the case in the last two. But since AFFC and ADWD were kind of a mess, I'm holding out hope that TWOW and ADOS start bringing things together and setting up the end game.

Spoiler

The characters will obviously start coming together more from now on. Feast and Dance are the second act of the overall story, and the fallout of what happened in the first act (when George started it was supposed to be a trilogy and the first book was to end with the Red Wedding). In the third act things will naturally change again. I think Feast and Dance were great though. Lots of development on character level and possible fulfillment of prophecies (sun setting in the east, mountains blowing in the wind, must go back to go forward etc) that seems to set up the third act well.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

During the panel they had before the season premiere, Martin said he is trying to bring the characters back together(if I recall correctly, he compared said movements to a delta or something along the lines.)

Good to know. I just hope he's making progress on it.

Spoiler

The characters will obviously start coming together more from now on. Feast and Dance are the second act of the overall story, and the fallout of what happened in the first act (when George started it was supposed to be a trilogy and the first book was to end with the Red Wedding). In the third act things will naturally change again. I think Feast and Dance were great though. Lots of development on character level and possible fulfillment of prophecies (sun setting in the east, mountains blowing in the wind, must go back to go forward etc) that seems to set up the third act well.

Spoiler

Just want to clarify that when I said AFFC and ADWD were a "mess", I was referring to Martin's writing of them since he struggled with first trying to do a 5-year gap in the story and then having to start from scratch.

I don't think either were bad, they just had more POV chapters of characters I either didn't care about or took awhile to get into. Then I felt that some were cut short in ADWD like Bran and Davos (two of my favorites). Now that ADWD is out, I think there's less hate for AFFC since there isn't an agonizing wait for the Jon, Dany, and Tyrion chapters. I just hope TWOW comes out sooner than later.

 

[lime]

I just don't know how they will make HUGE SPOILER! [BLACKOUT]Arya's rape scene? The actress is just to little![/BLACKOUT]

 

[Spidey-Bat]

I don't know where you heard that, but that's never happened.

 

[lime]

I don't know where you heard that, but that's never happened.

[BLACKOUT]At one point in the books, she is married the psychopathic Bolton son, and in their wedding night he ****s her and makes Theon (who is like his slave now) hold her down. That what is says in the Wikipedia biography of Theon. [/BLACKOUT]

 

[chamber-music]

Viserys, what a *****...

Harry Llyod pulled the best crazy faces though t:

 

[The Navigator]

[BLACKOUT]At one point in the books, she is married the psychopathic Bolton son, and in their wedding night he ****s her and makes Theon (who is like his slave now) hold her down. That what is says in the Wikipedia biography of Theon. [/BLACKOUT]

Spoiler

That's not the real Arya.

 

[jonathancrane]

And that is why it is prudent to never trust everything that is on Wikipedia.

 

[lime]

Spoiler

That's not the real Arya.

[BLACKOUT] So this does happens but it's not the real Arya? The who the hell is it?[/BLACKOUT]

 

[childeroland]

Spoiler

A girl named Jeyne Poole (daughter of the steward of Winterfell) who is substituted for Arya so that the Boltons can claim Winterfell by marrying her to Ramsay.

 

[Mjölnir]

Good to know. I just hope he's making progress on it.

He is. Back in March/April he had a quarter of it completely done (meaning that it's gone through the entire editing process), and it feels safe to assume that there's more written that's going through the process, and perhaps still more written that's close to being done for editing.

Spoiler

Just want to clarify that when I said AFFC and ADWD were a "mess", I was referring to Martin's writing of them since he struggled with first trying to do a 5-year gap in the story and then having to start from scratch.

I don't think either were bad, they just had more POV chapters of characters I either didn't care about or took awhile to get into. Then I felt that some were cut short in ADWD like Bran and Davos (two of my favorites). Now that ADWD is out, I think there's less hate for AFFC since there isn't an agonizing wait for the Jon, Dany, and Tyrion chapters. I just hope TWOW comes out sooner than later.

Yes, I misunderstood your point a bit there. I was lucky enough to not start reading the books until a couple of years after Feast had been published, so I didn't have to wait a decade for half of the characters as some readers have.

 

[TheFuture]

This isn't about satisfaction. It's about pieces fitting together. If you're expecting comeuppance or poetic justice, you're watching the wrong show.

Oh I'm well aware of what show I'm watching, I'm just saying that I'd wouldn't mind certain key aspects of the books being changed to serve making a more satisfactory viewing experience.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

He is. Back in March/April he had a quarter of it completely done (meaning that it's gone through the entire editing process), and it feels safe to assume that there's more written that's going through the process, and perhaps still more written that's close to being done for editing.

When he said that, I think most took it as he'd only written a quarter. But if the truth is that a quarter is finalized and ready to be printed, that's a good sign. I'm hoping for 2015, after that I'll get impatient.

Yes, I misunderstood your point a bit there. I was lucky enough to not start reading the books until a couple of years after Feast had been published, so I didn't have to wait a decade for half of the characters as some readers have.

I didn't start until about a month before ADWD was released. I would have different opinions of AFFC if I couldn't start ADWD immediately...which I still haven't finished but finally resumed last night.

 

[The Navigator]

EDIT: Picture was taken down.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

My reaction

Spoiler

That looks ridiculous. He looks like a Muppet. Though it's kind of a relief. That was the one thing I didn't want to see last week because I thought it would bother me the most, but I find it borderline hilarious. I was afraid they would end the episode with everyone singing "Rains of Castamere" and the camera pan up from Robb's body in a chair where you then see the head.

If anyone wants to see it done much better, Google Image Search Red Wedding for fanart.

Grey Wind last week looked beige/cream-colored and was more like the size of a German Shepard. They have REALLY dropped the ball with the wolves. They're much smaller than they should be and are barely shown.