Gotham Gotham Season 1, Episode 2 "Selina Kyle" General Discussion

Fish must be a piranha...
because she's chewing up the scenery. :cool: (YEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!)

OK, now with that out of the way, I didn't really mind her all that much (I even liked the "with my teeth" bit), but I'm hoping as the show find it's footing, some of the more noticeable comparable elements in dramatics are toned down. Feeling it necessary to have Selina insist on being referred to as Cat was worthy of an eyeroll. We get it. She wasn't ****ing around when she said 'go for the eyes' though. Yikes.

I really like Falcone's demeanor, although I don't want to see him too often. I don't know what's going on with Cobblepot, but seeing him this manic is enjoyable. I imagine refinement will come as he gathers what's necessary to get where he wants to be. The Gordon/Bullock dynamic is still the strongest draw for me, particularly matched up against the creepy villains of last ep.
 
You're quite harsh as Batman fans. Not everything is obvious for people who're not registered here.

Also, try to learn and accept new versions of the characters. Had they tried to do it like Nolan's movies, you would complain that they're trying to be Nolan but are not.

I do agree however, that there where problems with this episode. Personally I loved the pilot, but only liked this one. It devoted too much time to characters that weren't essential for this particular episodes so that the main plot got extremely weakened.

I would love the "Lost" approach, where every episode is a centric of some of the characters. But that probably won't happen.

Anyway, they mentioned the Dollmaker and that's enough for me. Do a Dollmaker story arc, even creepier than the one on Arrow and everything will be fixed.

Even though I don't think the episodes so far are without problems, I do believe that there is a potential just like Arrow had. Also I seem to be one of those Batman fans that are really enjoying it.

Give it a chance. It will get better, I'm sure of it.
 
I liked that episode better than the pilot. It did have a plot of its own, which is good. The plot itself, however, was not something earth-shattering or especially great. Still, one has to count his blessings.

I'm starting to really like Selina in this show. Well, during the pilot, her presence felt random, forced and unnecessary, but they are trying to make her an important character and... so far, so good. On one hand I applaud this, as she is very much a central figure in the Batman mythos, so getting to see her early years and adventures is cool. On the other hand, though, I'm still not sold on the idea to make her connected to Bruce and Gordon in such a way. I mean, I get it, the show has its own universe and storylines, much like the Burton/Schumacher and Nolan films did, so certain story inventions and changes are pretty much inevitable. I do get that. But still, I can't help but think that Selina's character would be even better if she stood on her own instead of being tied into Batman's origin and Jimbo's investigations.

Speaking of origins, it seems that the Penguin is starting to take form... Unfortunately... the form I'm starting to make out is not much like the Penguin I know and expect. Honestly, the actor is great, but the character himself is starting to feel very much like... I don't know, like Black Mask or the Joker. Too psychotic, too much hands-on cruelty... Not that the Penguin is supposed to be a gentle flower, but he's not an unhinged serial killer either. I don't know. I guess we'll wait and see. Like I said, the actor is great and, if nothing else, it will be fun to watch him take down the mob.

Riddler still had a cameo and I'm still not sure how I feel about it. This time we didn't see Poison Ivy, but we did hear about the Dollmaker. So it pretty much evens out. Still, at least to my knowledge, Dollmaker is not that big of a deal nor is he an exclusively Batman's villain, so maybe I'll let that pass. I mean, sure, I get the idea that Batman's baddies had lives and crime-careers of their own before Bruce donned the cape, but just... connecting everything at once... that's the part that gives me trouble. I mean, come on, look at this:

The Waynes are murdered, whole thing reeks of conspiracy, the mob is acting fishy, Batman's origin -> Selina witnesses everything -> While investigating, Gordon starts working with the Riddler -> trying to find the killer, Gordon and Bullock kill Poison Ivy's dad -> but the mob and the Penguin framed Poison Ivy's dad so he can take the fall -> Penguin ratted Mooney out, and as a result he barely got out alive -> Selina is captured by the Dollmaker's goons, Gordon saves her, so now she's going to trade information regarding the Wayne murder...

And so on, and on. And that's, like, two episodes. I know that it's actually a normal structure for a TV show, but connecting everything like that feels very strange in a Batman universe. Especially in one where Bruce won't be Batman for the next 10 years.

Anyways, back to the episode. Harvey Bullock is once again the cooler cop of the duo. I'm still not feeling Gordon as Gordon. He's a fine generic good guy, though, so maybe it will get better in time. But they just have to write his character in a more Gordon-y way.
Bruce and Alfred are once again interesting on the fringe of things. I know that this show is not meant to be Batman Begins for TV, but nonetheless I'm glad they're seem to realize that you just can't cut Wayne completely out of the equation.

So, overall, decent episode. Had it's moment. The Dollmaker's goons seemed like a fun villainous duo, Selina and the Penguin got more spotlight. The episode itself seemed slightly more focused.
So far, so good. I'm not giving up on the show quite yet.
 
I like this episode more than the pilot. I just hope the writers work on the dialogue a bit more. Other than that I am liking this series.
 
This show has several problems: the tone, the dialogue, the worst Alfred ever... they have to fix it before is too late:

AV Club review:

Gotham City is caught between two opposing forces, but they aren’t good and evil. No, the big war in Gotham is between camp and grit, and in the battle of “Selina Kyle,” nobody wins. Writer/executive producer/creator Bruno Heller delivers a script that once again has extreme difficulty balancing two dramatically different takes on the Dark Knight’s world, and that tonal dissonance becomes more abrasive as this week’s episode moves forward.

The major players fighting for the forces of camp this week are Fish Mooney and villains-of-the-week Patti and Doug, two child snatchers dressed like a 1950s school marm and police officer. Jada Pinkett Smith is the highlight of the pilot, but her over-the-top characterization begins to grate this week because the script gives her very few opportunities to vary her behavior. Like the majority of the cast this episode, Fish Mooney is very angry, and she has two ways of showing it: The first is by attempting to hide her rage, exaggerating her sensuality and graciousness to the point that it becomes obvious she’s wearing a mask to hide her true feelings. The second is by playing the anger at full volume, clenching her fist, furrowing her brow, and biting into each word of her hilariously explicit dialogue to make Fish a character that feels like she belongs in Dick Tracy’s world rather than Batman’s.


http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/gotham-selina-kyle-209866

If Bruno Heller can't get it right, TPTB should get someone else, there are plenty of talented producers/writers that would do a better job.
 
It really only needs a few tweaks IMO

-lower the camp
-soften up Alfred a little


That avclub review was a good read
 
Last edited:
And get a new writer, because the dialogue is painful to listen to.
 
Interesting that they are using the Dollmaker as he is pretty much a guaranteed character for a Supergirl show as Anton Schott. Doesn't look like DC are worried about any lack of villains.

I kind of love that Bullock and Gordon have gone full on Gene Hunt and Sam Tyler from Life on Mars.
 
I personally like the way they a mixing dark and gritty with over the top and campy characters. That's been a trait of batman stories for years. Its what separates him from a lot of characters.
 
You know what, I grew up with like umpteen versions of Bat-characters over the years as we all have, and I accept this as another version. Nothing more, nothing less. It's a continuity reboot. If all you know is the Nolan version and the BTAS version, well...don't know what to tell you.
 
Yeah, why have a better show, mediocrity is ok right?!

:whatever:
 
You know what, I grew up with like umpteen versions of Bat-characters over the years as we all have, and I accept this as another version. Nothing more, nothing less. It's a continuity reboot. If all you know is the Nolan version and the BTAS version, well...don't know what to tell you.

Pretty much.
 
So it seems like the consensus is that this is a solid show with lots of great potential but the dialogue and campy acting needs to be toned down. I am very much in agreement with this.

And I disagree with the bolded part.
 
Yeah, why have a better show, mediocrity is ok right?!

:whatever:

Not everyone thinks the show is mediocre. Some of us actually think it's a good show so far (Gasp! The horror!)
 
Judging by a lot of the responses, am I the only here who thought this episode was an improvement from the pilot?

I thought the pilot was very badly paced and overall mediocre. Not that this episode was amazing, but it was a lot more in line with what the show should be IMO. Character easter eggs weren't anywhere near as irritating. Pacing was better until the last few minutes. The city corruption felt more natural and with more substance, as opposed to last episode where it felt like...."Look look! It's corrupt! Everyone's corrupt! THIS CITY IS EVIL!"

With the exception of Fish Mooney, I liked all the characters a bit more this time around. Falcone got more screentime, Alfred was less of a *****e and whenever he was, it felt more intentional as opposed to poor execution. Bruce and Penguin are the breakout characters/performances of the show IMO. However, Riddler is absolutely atrocious. Too over the top, too shoehorned in. Worst villain so far.

Overall the show isn't great, but I think this episode put it closer to the right path.
 
I loved the pilot , I love the concept , but didn't like the last episode. I'm not gonna defend something if I think they can do better and I think they did do better in pilot. I can't rake AOS over weak writing in the first season but give Gotham a pass because I like it more. Sorry.

That said, I do think last nights was a filler in every sense and next week's episode will be a stronger effort. Again, I like the concept and pilot showed alot of promise but its like they did the opposite with everything that worked from the pilot and maximized their weaknesses from the pilot.

As far as accepting this being a new iteration of Batman, I'm already there. My Batman is Michael Keaton so i've been through several different versions by this point. I do think trying to do Nolan and Burton is tricky and you could end up all over the place tone wise. That's why I say Do your own Thing. Snyder is already gonna do it ,so they mine as well break their own new ground. I think after a season they may be more confident in going with their own tone and style .
 
I'm with you Shikamaru about the pilot, it was badly paced because they wanted to cover every ground. Now that it cooled down, it's finding its place with that last episode.
 
Judging by a lot of the responses, am I the only here who thought this episode was an improvement from the pilot?

I thought the pilot was very badly paced and overall mediocre. Not that this episode was amazing, but it was a lot more in line with what the show should be IMO. Character easter eggs weren't anywhere near as irritating. Pacing was better until the last few minutes. The city corruption felt more natural and with more substance, as opposed to last episode where it felt like...."Look look! It's corrupt! Everyone's corrupt! THIS CITY IS EVIL!"

With the exception of Fish Mooney, I liked all the characters a bit more this time around. Falcone got more screentime, Alfred was less of a *****e and whenever he was, it felt more intentional as opposed to poor execution. Bruce and Penguin are the breakout characters/performances of the show IMO. However, Riddler is absolutely atrocious. Too over the top, too shoehorned in. Worst villain so far.

Overall the show isn't great, but I think this episode put it closer to the right path.
I thought Alfred was worse in this one. The "stupid little boy" comment he made sealed the deal for me. At this point i want this Alfred out of the goddamn house!
 
I liked the episode more than the pilot. I don't really have any issue with Alfred.
 
Alfred wasn't too bad,but I don't really dig "gruff" Alfred.

To be honest,I think this new "gruff Alfred" movement is sort of a 50 year late reaction to "Seduction of the innocent"......
 
Liked this episode a lot more than the pilot. Also some stuff still made be cringe. I hope they keep improving so Season 2 could turn out extremely good (not much hope for S1), they have to find out their voice.

THe need to find a way to make the parts with the kids better - or abandon them altogether. Would be dumb but Bruce and Gordon, it feels odd. It is basically two men raising a boy...
 
A big improvement over the pilot. The scenes were were allowed to breath with less going on and less being introduced, so it wasn't edited to death. Despite some good moments, Fish Mooney really didn't fit in. Jada was best last week near the end, hopefully she finds that again. But everyone else did well and seemed to get in the groove of things. McKenzie, even though I liked him in the pilot, was clearly more comfortable in this episode. Captain Essen and the mayor look like strong points going forward.

I like that they allow the weirdness of some of the more absurd characters to bubble underneath the larger angle of the all-encompassing corruption of the city.
 
We should assume or hope that Alfred will also journey from gruff to compassionate father figure throughout the run of the show.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"