Gotham Gotham Season 1, Episode 6 "Spirit of the Goat" General Discussion

[Bathead]

This was a great episode all around, and gives me a lot of hope for the future of the show. The Bullock / Gordon dynamic is really a lot of fun.

I was a bit confused by Selina sneaking around Wayne Manor. Not sure what she was doing there. Seemed a bit random.

Not everything needs to be explained right away. I'm sure there will be some kind of pay-off for that scene at some point.

 

[croboy82]

I really loved this episode tbh.

And I'm falling in love with Nygma, he's cute oops.

Loved the ending! Next week should be intense!

 

[Doctor11]

Ugh, why do I keep doing this to myself? I told myself I was done with this show, then I read all your reactions to this episode and watched it.

As far as I'm concerned, Harvey Bullock is a great character and literally all the rest of them in this entire show are terrible. Penguin, his mother, Gordon, Barbara, Nygma, Selina, Fish Mooney, Montoya, Allen... cringe inducing.

I wish this show were just about Bullock, because Donal Logue is the only thing it has going for it. Well, that and the visuals. It's definitely a well shot (except the pilot) show with good set design. The acting, the dialogue, the writing, the music, the tone, the pacing... gross.

Sorry for crapping on your show again guys, I'll just see myself out.

Sounds like you just want a run of the mill police procedural. Plenty of those around for you to enjoy.

 

[famicommander]

Sounds like you just want a run of the mill police procedural. Plenty of those around for you to enjoy.

I don't want that at all. I just don't want to be beaten over the head repeatedly with heavy handed foreshadowing, especially when there's essentially zero chance that we'll ever see the payoff. They just feel the constant need to remind the audience of all the cool things we'll never get to see.

It wouldn't be so bad if the acting were tolerable (and, to me, only Donal Logue's is so far), and if the characters weren't so one note. Selina literally acts like a cat all the time, Riddler essentially only shows up to speak in riddles and wave his question mark mug around. Selina has almost no actual character development, and so far all we know about Nygma is he's socially awkward. Penguin is the only one they've actually bothered to flesh out. I personally don't like this take on the character at all, but I can see how others might. At least they're trying.

The Renee/Barbara and Bruce/Alfred scenes have been painful to watch. Gordon's actor has the charisma of a block of wood, and Jada Pinkett Smith is... *shudder*

I feel like the show doesn't have faith in its initial premise. It can't decide whether it wants to be Smallville or Law and Order, and I don't want to watch either of those shows. Either give me a full on Batman show or give me a good depiction of the Gotham PD; right now it's neither. It's just a bunch of stereotypes and massive coincidences (how many characters important to the mythos were involved in the Wayne murder and investigation? How many Batman villains has Gordon run across in the span of a few months? All of these people just happen to keep running into each other and partake in events that shape Batman's life, in a city of 8 million people, 10+ years before he takes up the cowl?).

 

[Doctor11]

I don't want that at all. I just don't want to be beaten over the head repeatedly with heavy handed foreshadowing, especially when there's essentially zero chance that we'll ever see the payoff. They just feel the constant need to remind the audience of all the cool things we'll never get to see.

It wouldn't be so bad if the acting were tolerable (and, to me, only Donal Logue's is so far), and if the characters weren't so one note. Selina literally acts like a cat all the time, Riddler essentially only shows up to speak in riddles and wave his question mark mug around. Selina has almost no actual character development, and so far all we know about Nygma is he's socially awkward. Penguin is the only one they've actually bothered to flesh out. I personally don't like this take on the character at all, but I can see how others might. At least they're trying.

The Renee/Barbara and Bruce/Alfred scenes have been painful to watch. Gordon's actor has the charisma of a block of wood, and Jada Pinkett Smith is... *shudder*

I feel like the show doesn't have faith in its initial premise. It can't decide whether it wants to be Smallville or Law and Order, and I don't want to watch either of those shows. Either give me a full on Batman show or give me a good depiction of the Gotham PD; right now it's neither. It's just a bunch of stereotypes and massive coincidences (how many characters important to the mythos were involved in the Wayne murder and investigation? How many Batman villains has Gordon run across in the span of a few months? All of these people just happen to keep running into each other and partake in events that shape Batman's life, in a city of 8 million people, 10+ years before he takes up the cowl?).

This coming from someone who says the TDK trilogy (one of the most acclaimed franchises of all time) is terrible. That says it all. I actually agree with some of your complaints about Gotham, but that dig on Nolan's trilogy kills your credibility. Not to say you're not allowed to dislike popular movies, but thinking a nearly universally acclaimed trilogy is terrible just because it's not your cup of tea is beyond ludicrous. Goodbye.

 

[Bullseye1]

I haven't really been enjoying this show but tonight's episode was entertaining. Hopefully it starts to pick up from here on out.

 

[TheBat812]

Famicommander - it seems like 'coincidence' to you because you know the outcome, however if you look at it the way they're building it, it makes nothing but sense. These characters were an important part of why Gotham needs Bruce to don cape and cowl by the time he's ready, as they're integral parts of it's descent. I understand some of your complaints and share some, but I fundamentally disagree with this part in particular. They're doing a great job of using characters and establishing them to matter to Gothams evolution. Neither are they being incredibly overt when it comes to cameos - yes, us fans know ivy, know nygma, etc, but the GA, like my gf don't necessarily, and to them it works -depending on how they're used down the line, they could evolve to be point where they become early versions of the characters we know them as.

Personally I love how they're interweaving all the characters and their parts in the evolution of Gotham into the place where even Gordon will come to understand the necessity of somebody working outside the system to bring order and sanity back to Gotham.

 

[Frodo]

I think the show ultimately needs to go beyond the predictable path and take more chances. I think the problem with the whole foreshadowing thing is a problem which often expresses itself in prequels in general. You keep trying to do things to evoke the status quo and you keep saying ,"Get it, Get it, this is an illusion to this part of the myths that's iconic". As a result you're kinda already putting a clock on the story, instead of treating that story as something that's unfolding for these characters in this moment in time with no hint or overbearing foreshadowing to what the future could be.

I think the show needs to forge its own path and as opposed to foreshadowing , bring new elements to the mythology and take new twists and turns which don't telegraph what we the viewers already know. Don't allude to heroes and people taking the law into their own hands because there's no hope. Don't make it seem like its a forgone conclusion that Gordon will win eventually. Make the future seem uncertain and even unlikely. Throw curve balls in with storyline's like the court of owls or even characters like the Reaper from Batman year two.

I think the show is doing that a little in these early days, but I'd like them to be more bold, and I think the new casting is a sign that they realize they have to just do their own thing without trying to be Burton or Nolan. Even though the episodes have been hit or really miss for me, I still see the potential their and the elements there to truly have a new distinct vision of the Batman myths. Alot of the critiques of the show aren't unfounded imo, but I think that with the right focus and a bolder vision for storytelling the show could be first rate.

I see hints and nuggets their with Bruce, Bullock, Alfred, Selina, Falcone , Maroni, and Penguin. Gordon not so much , Barbara and Montoya even less so, Fish is 50/50 for me. But I think once you start shaking things up with characters like Harvey Dent, Leslie Thompkins, Tommy Elliot, Blackmask etc, suddenly you're taking things into new place where the audience hasn't been and youre taking them in directions which may not be certain. Ultimately , you want to show why the city of Gotham would need a Batman , but you don't want to make it seem that a Batman is a forgone conclusion.

 

[TheBat812]

I'm sure will be getting snippets of that over the next couple seasons, but were still only in episode 6. In theory I get the foregone conclusion argument, but that really works better when that conclusion is a positive thing - as in, things will end up happy, but it's not a foregone conclusion. Here it goes downhill. Yes, well likely see Gordon break down and make some questionable decisions as things continue to spiral downward. Well see riddled to from just being awkward to being his attention grabbing self. Penguin and how he comes to be in charge. It's like a biopic where you know the end, but hopefully they engage you during the journey. It's working for me, but I understand why it not working for everyone. They want it to be something it's not trying to be, and frankly, I don't think it should try to be, but to each their own.

 

[signalman]

Oswald Chesterfield Cobblepot getting a spong bath from Dear Old Mom sure was CREEPY!!!

 

[Frodo]

I'm sure will be getting snippets of that over the next couple seasons, but were still only in episode 6. In theory I get the foregone conclusion argument, but that really works better when that conclusion is a positive thing - as in, things will end up happy, but it's not a foregone conclusion. Here it goes downhill.

A forgone conclusion means that the end result is pretty clear whether good or bad . Alot of prequels have this problem by alluding to the what we know will be the status quo as opposed to just allowing the current story to play out in real time without allusions or foreshadowing .


Yes, well likely see Gordon break down and make some questionable decisions as things continue to spiral downward. Well see riddled to from just being awkward to being his attention grabbing self. Penguin and how he comes to be in charge. It's like a biopic where you know the end, but hopefully they engage you during the journey. It's working for me, but I understand why it not working for everyone. They want it to be something it's not trying to be, and frankly, I don't think it should try to be, but to each their own.

Well to be fair. there are people who have issues with it for different reasons, not just because they want it to be one thing and its not. Alot of the criticisms i've seen from even fans of the series, haves. revolved around some of the characters, acting, the plotlines, and the shifting tone. I don't think its as simple as they wanted X and got Y, at least not with all of the criticisms. I actually take those critiques more seriously because they're criticizing the execution of what the show is giving as opposed to saying, " It should have done this instead of that". But yeah this is the early days and its clear to me the show doesn't quite know what it wants to be yet which I why I cut it a bit of slack . Frankly I don't think the show is gonna be what it is now when all is said and done anyway so I think its a bit premature for fans to judge the entire series , pro or con , based on what it is now.

 

[Donut]

Can those two so called cops die already ?

 

[Donut]

But thinking a nearly universally acclaimed trilogy is terrible just because it's not your cup of tea is beyond ludicrous. Goodbye.

So everybody has 2 like Nolans Trilogy because most do ? Seriously ? Learn what opinions are & how they work

 

[famicommander]

This coming from someone who says the TDK trilogy (one of the most acclaimed franchises of all time) is terrible. That says it all. I actually agree with some of your complaints about Gotham, but that dig on Nolan's trilogy kills your credibility. Not to say you're not allowed to dislike popular movies, but thinking a nearly universally acclaimed trilogy is terrible just because it's not your cup of tea is beyond ludicrous. Goodbye.

As far as I'm concerned the Nolan movies are pretentious drivel, but that's neither here nor there and I will not have this argument in an unrelated thread. My evaluation of those movies has absolutely nothing to do with my criticism of Gotham -- what you just did was perform an ad-hominem attack and immediately follow it up with an appeal to authority. That's two of the most common logical fallacies employed in rapid succession.

"How dare this blasphemer criticize the Nolan films, which are universally agreed by all to be amazing films! I'm not saying you're wrong for disagreeing... oh wait, that's exactly what I'm saying."

I'm not too wrapped up in your evaluation of my credibility, given you can't seem to separate my arguments from other, ancillary concerns.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Not everything needs to be explained right away. I'm sure there will be some kind of pay-off for that scene at some point.

Yeah, but there was no build to it and no effect afterward... it seemed like a weird interruption that didn't flow into the story. I have no problem with unexplained events, I just thought it felt out of place.

 

[SomeOldGuy]

The worst decision this show-runner ever made was to tap into the kid versions of these heroes & villains. Young-adult? 20-something? Sure. It's working for Penguin. It may start working for Riddler, even though i dont care for it. But the kid stuff, including little Poison Ivy, was just a horrible idea.

Yeah, Bruce and Selina are easily the weakest parts of the show. They have basically nothing to do. You could cut them out completely and it would improve the show, which ought to be a blinding bat-signal to the writers that they shouldn't be there. But they're probably afraid of alienating fans who want a "Batman" show, not a cop drama.

My advice, if I were asked, which I haven't been, would be to write the kids out on week-by-week basis. We know they are there in the background, but this isn't their story, at least not now. I would write one or two episodes for them each season that would give a peek into what they are doing, but other than that keep them off stage.

 

[Frodo]

I think the kids were kinda a fail safe for the writers because they weren't sure if GA's would care about the series if it didn't feature Bruce on a regular basis. I think that there's enough there there for the show to go on without Bruce being a regular on the show , but that's a debatable issue. Maybe someday they can spin off Gotham into a Bruce Wayne series which can focus exclusively on Teen Bruce's globe trotting and adventures in his quest to become Batman.

 

[the dmg]

Best episode of the series so far. They need to keep this kind of tone going forward instead of flip flopping like they have been in each episode. I really liked the backstory to show why Bullock acts the way he does at times, and that he isn't a full scumbag like he's made to be. I'm still wondering what angle Montoya and Allen are playing. There has to be more to it than Montoya still being in love with Barbara. So many known corrupt cops in GCPD and Gordon is the target.

The only real annoying things about this episode was the Catwoman pose and the question mark on the mug.

 

[BestGirl]

Best episode of the series so far. They need to keep this kind of tone going forward instead of flip flopping like they have been in each episode. I really liked the backstory to show why Bullock acts the way he does at times, and that he isn't a full scumbag like he's made to be. I'm still wondering what angle Montoya and Allen are playing. There has to be more to it than Montoya still being in love with Barbara. So many known corrupt cops in GCPD and Gordon is the target.

The only real annoying things about this episode was the Catwoman pose and the question mark on the mug.

I don't think there is an angle to Montoya and Allen beyond what we've been shown. They're targeting Gordon because Renee still cares for Barbara and is perhaps subconsciously hoping that if he's out of the picture Barbara will come back to her. Allen's probably going along with it just because she's his partner.

 

[EssayM]

I don't think there is an angle to Montoya and Allen beyond what we've been shown. They're targeting Gordon because Renee still cares for Barbara and is perhaps subconsciously hoping that if he's out of the picture Barbara will come back to her. Allen's probably going along with it just because she's his partner.

That's probably part of it. It also could be that, because she still cares for Barbara, she's worried about her safety, given that Gordon has gotten involved with so many dangerous criminals. Like she said, "Who he knows will kill you." Between this episode and their scene together in The Balloonman, Renee seems to be more motivated by concern for an old friend (with a little bit of righteous anger) than plain old jealousy.

 

[SomeOldGuy]

I think the kids were kinda a fail safe for the writers because they weren't sure if GA's would care about the series if it didn't feature Bruce on a regular basis. I think that there's enough there there for the show to go on without Bruce being a regular on the show , but that's a debatable issue. Maybe someday they can spin off Gotham into a Bruce Wayne series which can focus exclusively on Teen Bruce's globe trotting and adventures in his quest to become Batman.

I'd actually just like to see them doing something that 12-year-olds do. Instead of being mini-Batman or mini-Catwoman. I mean, even rich kids have to go to school, right? Neither Bruce nor Selina is believable largely because we don't see them doing anything a kid would do.

A spinoff is an interesting idea. Anything to get them out of Gotham!

 

[Kane52630]

http://kane52630.tumblr.com/post/101578239309/s01-e06-spirit-of-the-goat-gotham

 

[The Joker]

This was the best episode yet. The goat killer was creepy through and through. The cliffhanger with Penguin was awesome. I loved his mischievous wicked smile.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Holy ****... this was the best episode yet.

I loved the heavy focus on Bullock, who is arguably (outside of The Penguin) the best character on the show. It was wonderful to see him fighting the good fight ten years ago, with hope and passion. Not only that, but we learn that he has been looking after his old partner all these years... no doubt out of guilt for him trying to ''be a hero''.

Although this was another villian of the week scenario, it was much more poignant due to the torment it caused Bullock. The Goat was certainly a creepy creation and I wouldn't mind seeing the concept resurface as a cult (Similar to The Court Of Owls). What is it with Gotham and animals?

Some other points:

- Fish Mooney got some much needed respite this week, but I'm looking forward to her reunion with Cobblepot.
- The scenes with Cobblepot and his mother were downright CREEPY.
-As usual, the Montoya and Allen scenes were the worse. Not only is the actress playing Montoya the weakest in the cast, but it was tough to swallow the notion that they could arrest Gordon without some serious, tangiable proof.
This whole Gordon/Barbara/Montoya thing needs to end now.

Plus, that ending...

Great episode.

 

[NoLaNitE007]

Best Episode so far IMO.

It was definitely the tightest episode focusing on The Spirit of the Goat serial murder case. Great to see the trust coming together between Gordon and Bullock...but that seems to be blowing up soon!

A great dark episode with a great ending and it was good seeing the psychiatrist being involved.

She was hot and she showed a little playfullness...ala Harley Quinzell toward the end.