Gotham Gotham Season 1, Episode 5 "Viper" General Discussion

[DigificWriter]

The series IS getting better. It started out on the right track and has only improved episode-to-episode. If you haven't found anything to enjoy about the series so far, you're not going to no matter how much longer you watch, so do yourself and everyone else a favor and just stop.

 

[BatLobster]

You're acting like I've been bashing it week after week in here. I think this is the first time I've even entered this subforum. And it's not that I haven't found things to enjoy (the cinematography, Gordon/Bullock, Bruce/Alfred, Selina)...I have. My point was that it's been harder for me to appreciate those things because the bad elements have become increasingly distracting for me to the point where it's bordering on parody.

We're all Batman fans here. Obviously I had a vested interest in the show, and it's disappointed me so far. That doesn't mean I don't see the potential in it and hope for them to play up the show's strengths and minimize the weaknesses as it goes on. Some shows DO dramatically improve as they hit their second, third seasons. They find their groove. To me this show has not found its groove yet and is still experimenting with different tones. Most likely I'll bow out this season, and then wait to see what the reaction to Season 2 is.

My plan isn't to come in here and bash the show week after week, so don't worry about that. I just needed to get one vent out of my system. Now that I did, I'll be on my way.

 

[DigificWriter]

I gave up on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. after being unimpressed by the Pilot; it was demonstrably not up to par with the rest of Joss Whedon's work, and there wasn't enough about the premise to convince me that it was going to EVER work (despite having enjoyed all of the Marvel Cinematic Universe installments to date).

The things you're calling 'bad' are built directly into the conceptual DNA of the series and are therefore never going to change, so it's best to stop watching something that is clearly not working for you on a conceptual level.

 

[BatLobster]

Bad acting is built directly into the conceptual DNA of the series? I'm sorry but I can't buy that premise. There is a difference between going for 'pulpy' and miscasting roles that are flat out poorly acted (like Maroni or Barbara). I can picture a better version of this show that still holds true to the core of what it's meant to be. Who knows, maybe that better version will emerge eventually.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ I don't see any evidence of certain parts being "flat out poorly acted".

As far as the series' conceptual DNA is concerned, the way the characters are being written and portrayed is very much built directly into it at a basic conceptual level.

Characters like Fish and Maroni are SUPPOSED to be occasionally over-the-top because it's part of the series' overall aesthetic and tone.

The very fact that Jada Pinkett-Smith brought a shirtless man on a leash to her audition proves that beyond any doubt.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, but I actually enjoy Jada Pinkett-Smith as Fish. I do not buy David Zayas as a mob boss for one second. He doesn't even try to change his accent for one, and secondly I've never been terribly impressed with him as an actor. Not on Dexter, certainly not on this show. The moments where he had to play "threatening" just came off as goofy to me, because he's a goofy actor playing a role he's miscast as. They could've done much, much better.

I do like Falcone though.

 

[Joe Von Zombie]

Whats wrong with Zayas? I think he is far less over the top than Eric Roberts.

 

[DigificWriter]

Yeah, but I actually enjoy Jada Pinkett-Smith as Fish. I do not buy David Zayas as a mob boss for one second. He doesn't even try to change his accent for one, and secondly I've never been terribly impressed with him as an actor. Not on Dexter, certainly not on this show. The moments where he had to play "threatening" just came off as goofy to me, because he's a goofy actor playing a role he's miscast as. They could've done much, much better.

I do like Falcone though.

Hmm. I don't see any difference between the way Jada and John (Doman) play Fish and Falcone, respectively, and the way that Zayas plays Maroni, but maybe that's just me.

 

[BatLobster]

I used to make fun of Eric Roberts' turn as Maroni...which was a bit hammy (and would totally fit on GOTHAM). But Zayas' makes me want him back. It just feels phoned in and extremely inauthentic. Doesn't help that Zayas is asked to play 'intimidating' whereas Roberts never really had to do that and just played it slimey.

Hmm. I don't see any difference between the way Jada and John (Doman) play Fish and Falcone, respectively, and the way that Zayas plays Maroni, but maybe that's just me.

Hey, it's all good. Just opinions. Though to me, all three of those are different characters who are each played differently by their respective actors. I appreciate the attempt to make Falcone more than just a generic mob boss. He's interesting, likeable and seems to have some sort of integrity. Fish is hammy, but in a fun way where she's owning it.

 

[ThePhantasm]

The things you're calling 'bad' are built directly into the conceptual DNA of the series and are therefore never going to change, so it's best to stop watching something that is clearly not working for you on a conceptual level.

I love how you authoritatively claim this when you really have no idea what the future of the show will bring, and even Agents of Shield had a huge shift in tone and quality with the introduction of Hydra to the show.

You act like shows never get better over time. They do. And the DNA changes.

 

[declan]

Solid episode. Much better than the last two. The Wayne Enterprises stuff is interesting. I wonder if they'll introduce Lucius Fox and some corrupt corporate executive types (Mr. Earle?)? Although, there has been no casting noises on that front yet.

Well now Bruce has two major conspiracies tied to Wayne Enterprises in consecutive weeks, and now we have Ms. Mathis as a baddie, so I'm feeling a strong Lucius Fox vibe.

There has to be someone in Wayne Enterprises who specifically was Thomas Wayne's guy, and once he gets word that Bruce is actually trying to contact the stockholders, it would be highly advisable to speak to the kid who will eventually control everything.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I'd love if they threw a Mr. Earle type in the show.

Which randomly reminds me of that fan joke theory back in the day that John Blake was a time-traveling Mr. Earle:

Spoiler

 

[DigificWriter]

I love how you authoritatively claim this when you really have no idea what the future of the show will bring, and even Agents of Shield had a huge shift in tone and quality with the introduction of Hydra to the show.

You act like shows never get better over time. They do. And the DNA changes.

All of Joss Whedon's previous shows were good straight out of the gate. AoS wasn't.

And, no, a series' conceptual DNA doesn't generally change.

 

[TheBat812]

Yeah, but I actually enjoy Jada Pinkett-Smith as Fish. I do not buy David Zayas as a mob boss for one second. He doesn't even try to change his accent for one, and secondly I've never been terribly impressed with him as an actor. Not on Dexter, certainly not on this show. The moments where he had to play "threatening" just came off as goofy to me, because he's a goofy actor playing a role he's miscast as. They could've done much, much better.

I do like Falcone though.

The acting is certainly one of the consistently weak points of the show. Can't really think of any top notch acting on this show, even penguin is pretty average. Maroni was mostly lame and felt miscast until this last episode where he actually did feel intimidating to me. Still wouldn't be my first choice but he felt right there. Still not a huge fan of jada's fish, but luckily I'm still interested in seeing where they're going with the city's slow demise. I'm still enjoying the show despite the actin being pretty consistently stilted and wooden. Only ones I'm really enjoying are Bruce and bullock.

 

[ThePhantasm]

All of Joss Whedon's previous shows were good straight out of the gate. AoS wasn't.

And, no, a series' conceptual DNA doesn't generally change.

Oh, okay. BatLobsterRises said he liked the conceptual DNA of the show, just not the execution, so I thought surely by DNA you meant something else.

Conceptually isn't really the problem for me anyway, it's all about the execution.

 

[EssayM]

I will say, even as a defender of this show, Fish Mooney was pretty off in this week's episode. I can usually roll with her craziness and vamping, but some of the stuff she did this week was just downright bizarre (particularly that scene toward the end, which threw me even more because I initially mistook the guy for Gordon. *shudder*).

In fact, the villains in general were kind of a weak point this episode. The returning villains were all watered down in their threat and potency, and the new "villains", Potolsky and the old man, were really just pawns of someone else we haven't met yet (or maybe victims? I couldn't really follow it, but either way they seemed more frightened than evil). Falcone and Penguin were at someone else's mercy the entire time, and Maroni was even more of a cartoon character than he was before.

On the positive side: the effects of Viper were kinda cool, the Bane tease is some interesting foreshadowing, Bruce finally leaves the house, Alfred stops being a jerk and actually starts helping, Nygma has his best cameo yet, and the music, cinematography etc. are still top-notch.

Overall, mixed but still pretty good.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I think Fish is getting worse. I enjoyed the character at first but lately she's been just annoying. She doesn't feel like a credible threat anymore... hasn't since the first episode.

 

[EssayM]

I will admit that the Batman franchise has a long history of OTT characters and performances, even in the good stuff. And I actually was buying Maroni as a legitimate character...right until the scene where he grills Gordon over a full Italian lunch, dinner napkin and all. That's where he went from "proud of his heritage" to "Italian-themed Adam West villain".

 

[The Guard]

Another solid episode. Interesting that they'd bring Venom into play so soon, but there are major possibilities with that concept, so it's not a bad thing.

Wasn't much of a fan of Mathis' acting, but everyone else was pretty good. Not sure what the complaints about Maroni are about. He's a blowhard.

Love that Gordon is caught between Maroni and Falcone, and Cobblepot's role in things continues to evolve nicely, though he took a backseat for this episode. I kind of like that Selina just popped up briefly and then escaped. I like the idea of a compromised Wayne Enterprises, that is actually complicit in illegal/dangerous activities. Something for Bruce and Alfred to take on. I love the end, with Alfred starting to join Bruce in looking into things. Just a really nice moment.

I'm not digging The Riddlers' role in things or his performance. He's been very hit or miss, and there needs to be more meat to his inclusion if he's going to keep showing up.

I loved seeing a softer, more vulnerable side of Falcone.

Also, odd that no one is discussing this...the gentleman with Fish Mooney toward the end, was that Roman Sionis?

 

[ThePhantasm]

Yeah, I don't mind Maroni either. He's fun to watch.

 

[DigificWriter]

the gentleman with Fish Mooney toward the end, was that Roman Sionis?

No; it was the Russian mobster she had been at odds with earlier in the episode when Falcone called all of his lieutenants together for a meeting.

 

[Bathead]

Another solid episode. Interesting that they'd bring Venom into play so soon, but there are major possibilities with that concept, so it's not a bad thing.

Wasn't much of a fan of Mathis' acting, but everyone else was pretty good. Not sure what the complaints about Maroni are about. He's a blowhard.

Love that Gordon is caught between Maroni and Falcone, and Cobblepot's role in things continues to evolve nicely, though he took a backseat for this episode. I kind of like that Selina just popped up briefly and then escaped. I like the idea of a compromised Wayne Enterprises, that is actually complicit in illegal/dangerous activities. Something for Bruce and Alfred to take on. I love the end, with Alfred starting to join Bruce in looking into things. Just a really nice moment.

I'm not digging The Riddlers' role in things or his performance. He's been very hit or miss, and there needs to be more meat to his inclusion if he's going to keep showing up.

I loved seeing a softer, more vulnerable side of Falcone.

Also, odd that no one is discussing this...the gentleman with Fish Mooney toward the end, was that Roman Sionis?

I would think that sooner or later they will do just that, build him up to show just exactly why he went bad. Right now they're concentrating on Cobblepot. It's better this way, to deal with one Bat-villain's back story at a time.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I'd like to see a bit more of Nygma's classic arrogance coming out. So far he's just a geeky guy who likes riddles.

 

[declan]

I kind of like that Selina just popped up briefly and then escaped.

Good post as always, but I guess I'm the only guy here who didn't think Selina stealing that wallet was accidental at all. I think she saw what happened in the convenience store: all that milk consumed, a guy picking up an ATM running down the street?

She saw Gordon, and kept him there by stealing the wallet until the alarm went off. All this craziness is not good for her world and she and Gordon have a very basic element of trust.

 

[The Guard]

Selina is clearly much smarter than she lets on. She's positioning herself to be in a middle of everything. Which is classic Catwoman.

As far as The Riddler goes, I'd just like to see something other than "just the creepy tech guy". Some kind of gradual storyline, something he's working toward...something. I do know that the actor playing him isn't that well known (except here in my home theatre community where he's from), so that might be part of it.