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BvS Henry Cavill IS Superman - Part 7

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I just like my Superman uplifting. A grimdark Superman that kills is just as wrong as a happy go lucky Punisher in a pink shirt that treats criminals with flowers and bubble gum.

I'll agree that Superman should be uplifting, and MOS didn't really touch on that point as much as I would've liked.

But I honestly do not see him as a dark character. He kills as a last resort because he has no other way to save the family and Zod (unlike the happy-go-lucky Superman of Superman II who kills Zod even after he's disposed of his powers). He selflessly saves humanity against all odds. Nothing about him screams antihero. It's a maturer, less overtly cheerful take on the character, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's dark.
 
Yeah I didn't really see him as a dark Superman at all, either. I'm glad they put Superman in a tough situation, and I'm sure we will see the repercussions of that in the next movie. It's not like he's going to kill again. I'm sure the next film will be the Superman we all know and love. But I found Superman to be uplifting enough in MOS. But I'm sure we will see more of that soon.

Also...Michael Bay action scenes? Really? I thought it was quite well done and not the type of destruction porn Bay often does. You can actually feel the stakes and it's quite powerful and emotional. But I think the movie could have done without the Smallville battle. The Zod vs Superman battle would have been enough.
 
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That majestic cape. :yay:

He's majestic in every possible way :hrt:
 
So majestic. While I think in some scenes, Cavill looked majestic in the suit with the cape, however I think the film could have been so much better without such a dark saturation.

I think we need more full length shots of Superman simply just standing, seeing his full body from head to feet with his cape flapping in the wind with the brightness of the red.

Some shots in Man of Steel, the suit looks too dark. Most of Cavill's screen time wearing the suit is cut off the camera, and usually had closeups.
 
As for Mark Waid...

I like him and he's allowed his opinion, but if I remember correctly, he didn't seem to totally grasp the context of superman killing. I believe he said it wasn't earned. Well, that's because "earning" was never part of the point of that scene. MOS superman had avoided fights his whole life and even if he hadn't, he would never have a reason to kill ever before in his life. It wouldn't even be something he's thiught about, I reckon. He could easily subdue any Earthly enemy, so why think about killing or consider having a no-kill rule? It was a situation that didn't apply to him...until he ended up in a very unexpected fight with Zod. What we saw in that fight was superman dealing with something he had never fathomed would happen to him. They didn't have to build up his aversion to killing or make him "earn" it because he wouldn't have an aversion to something he thought would never come up. He realized, when he had Zod pinned, that he had to do something and he did all that he could. His aversion to killing only appeared then because that's the first time he was faced with the possibility and his begging Zod to stop clearly showed he didn't want to do it. The reaction we saw afterwards was him reacting to something he'd never felt before, not a reaction to breaking his "one rule."

I think Waid made the mistake letting his knowledge of superman in general distract him from the fact that this superman is not any of those other superman he's read or written about. He assumed that since some other supermen have had a defined no-kill rule that this superman should as well and that the movie made a mistake by not playing that up. But that's not what the movie was doing. This superman did not have that rule and had no reason to until that fateful day. MOS showed superman reacting to something unexpected he had to do in the heat of the moment, not superman reacting to breaking a rule he'd had for a while.

I think you can take it a step further. Jonathan preaches to him the responsibility of his powers, how he needs to be ready before he can show himself to the world, how the world will see him once they know he exists. I think the killing of Zod is a culmination of those lessons, which to me makes it earned.
 
So if the movie audience barely knows him from some 30 year old movies, why do we have to renovate him so much to sell him to them?

I mean, i dont think Snyder changed all that much anyway. They tried to give him the soul searching journey he had in Birthright, or the one Bruce had in Begins. Then the villain comes and Clark one way or the others comes out and fights him winning the day. It's just a matter of execution.

The only innovative thing they did was have him kill Zod and i dont think that was so important to sell Superman in this day and age. It also wasnt in the trailers so it's not like people went to the cinemas for it. I also dont think the gritty execution was important when Marvel is making a movie about a talking raccoon.

In my opinion, it all comes down to execution, and again in my opinion, Marvel's mediocre, "play it safe" movies have more heart than Snyder's "let's copy Nolan's realism and Bay's explosions to succeed because i cant direct for **** unless a comic book gives me shot for shot" Superman.
No, actually i consider the Dark Knight the best CBM to date and it was 1000 times more realistic, gritty and pragmatic than MoS.

I just like my Superman uplifting. A grimdark Superman that kills is just as wrong as a happy go lucky Punisher in a pink shirt that treats criminals with flowers and bubble gum.

You hit the nail on the head with a lot of these points. Gritty realism is not exclusively heartless. The silent guardian from the end of The Dark Knight, as he rides into the light with Jim Gordon's voice-over, is still a hero and that final moment when it cuts to black is still chill-inducing.
 
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I see him as a realistic Superman (given the circumstances) and if needed to kill to protect the common interests of our planet, then so be it. Not that he takes pleasure in it at all. I'm sure if Darkseid or other aliens are entered into the foray, he would kill them also if it meant protecting the planet.
 
You hit the nail on the head with a lot of these points. Gritty realism is not exclusively heartless. The silent guardian from the end of The Dark Knight, as he rides into the light with Jim Gordon's voice-over, is still a hero and that final moment when it cuts to black is still chill-inducing.
Thank you! Despite the gritty crime drama atmosphere, the Joker's heinous crimes, the mob, the scarecrow, Dent losing his mind, all of it, the movie ends in a triumphant, bittersweet tone.
Pick your battles, man.
I try, i try.
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tumblr_myyf463p3p1rei3gfo1_r1_250.gif

That majestic cape. :yay:
Amazing!
 
I see him as a realistic Superman (given the circumstances) and if needed to kill to protect the common interests of our planet, then so be it. Not that he takes pleasure in it at all. I'm sure if Darkseid or other aliens are entered into the foray, he would kill them also if it meant protecting the planet.
He doesnt have to when he has a magic prison where he can lock in anyone he wants, the Phantom Zone. You dont have to write him into a corner and force him to kill because there is no point in it. It's not necessary, Superman is so many things, there's so much you can do before you exhaust every angle and you're forced to explore the plot of him killing.

In the end, Killing Zod wasnt the only problem, it was a part of a whole, the whole being trying to nolanize Superman so that he can appeal to the Dark Knight crowd. And that was handled by a mediocre writer and a director who is a horrible storyteller. Say what you will about Nolan's action scenes, but the man is a storyteller. Snyder isnt. His own project, Sucker Punch, is a mess even he cant explain it. Go to 4:20.

[YT]5T2qELzGWqg[/YT]
 
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There is a poignancy to Superman stories which hasn't really been tapped into. When the comics explore these aspects, it's some of the most touching content you'll find. There's a way to do this without coming off as 'emo', too.

The Peace on Earth story, where Superman flies around the world feeding people, only to encounter opposition in a war zone. He learns he can't help everyone, and they must inspire themselves and others. He's just the example.
 
Snyder is an amazing director. So I can't agree with your summary. However, I will say that the appeal to the Dark Knight crowd was a focal point of persuasion. Be that as it may, I rather enjoyed Man Of Steel more than I enjoyed any of the Nolan Movies (except DKR) I think Nolan's realism went too far. That's just my opinion. Bats was nothing more than a glorified cop with vigilante characteristics. There was no world where Killer Croc or Clayface could exist. I think a happy medium of realism and fantasy would have suited best. Snyder did this. I also admire the new batsuit much more than the atrocity Nolan's crew came up with.
 
Some people see the movie and expect some thing from a Superman film. I expected that too. I wanted to see the same things everyone wanted to see: a larger-than-life superhero saving the day for the people of Metropolis. I think everyone wanted that.

Superman's longevity as a character has given him a very peculiar weakness that only applies to gods: it seems he cannot be portrayed in any other way than how he has been portrayed since the 50s. As a character, he's in danger of becoming a mere symbol for future generations. You can hear it now from people, especially the younger ones. For me, I can't imagine a world where Superman has become like Mickey Mouse and the other Disney characters. They only appeal to a certain age group and after some time they're just symbols for a big company. He is too good for that.

MOS wanted to remove all that baggage assorted with the Superman character. It wanted to go back to the basics and humanity of Superman. Perhaps for some it was too gritty a pill to swallow: too much realism on a hallowed character always brings out the traditionalist in all of us. But for Superman as a character to continue on, MOS did the right thing and shook the establishment a bit to show that Supes is as dynamic as the others.

There's a reason why some characters fade into oblivion. Some of the superheroes in the 30s have been forgotten, for various reasons but mainly because they need something audiences can relate to and that reflects the current zeitgeist. Batman and Superman writers have always done this, because they understand that for a character to remain in our imagination, we should be able to imagine that character facing the same issues we do and seeing our world. You know which character is doing better in terms of this.

Unfortunately some of us have not been able to imagine Superman that way. We want to protect him and keep him in that glory that he basks in. Even Batman sometimes does this, when in some iterations he'd rather do the bad stuff than Clark because he can't bear to think that a super-good being like Clark would be tainted with some kind of vile deed.

MOS wanted to take Superman off the pedestal that writers and fans have placed him on, and treat him the way a good storyteller treats any good character: take him to situations and problems he has never faced before, give him qualities that people would identify and wish for, and make people THINK about their place in the world.

As a character, Superman has always done this for me, but in the past few years fans and writers seem to think he's Untouchable and have set limits on his portrayal like he was Moses or Jesus Christ.

You can argue that MOS Superman didn't even have the basic qualities for Supes, but here we can agree to disagree. MOS showed a boy who wanted to do good, despite what he heard from his foster parents. It showed a man who was willing to help people even if he was mistreated or bullied. It showed a Superman who despite his doubts, chose to save a world that so far had shown him little kindness (apart from his parents and a few friends) and do what for him was a terrible decision.

And yes, I had to see it a second time to remove the Superman Boy Scout blinders I've had since I was seven years old.

Fate in SHH forums restored.
 
A year later and there's still debate about Superman killing. I think that's a good thing. I also think Henry sold the scene well.
 
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tumblr_myyf463p3p1rei3gfo1_r1_250.gif

That majestic cape. :yay:

That's cape porn at it's finest!

I wish they could use blue screen… :( The green screen distorts the suit color which makes them have to fix it in post but you can tell theres something off about it in the final film tho. Or at least I can. That's why it always looked so much better when he's not in action where's theres no cgi background.
 
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I wish they could use blue screen… :( The green screen distorts the suit color which makes them have to fix it in post but you can tell theres something off about it in the final film tho.
The green screen is there precisely as to not interfere with the blue. Green/Blue screens are interchangeable, depending on the primary colors within the shot.

If the color is "off", that's simply Snyder's preference of blue.
 
The more I look at this suit the more I like it
I guess the actor wearing it has something to do with making the suit appealing, I don't imagine it looking equally as good if on someone else
 
The more I look at this suit the more I like it
I guess the actor wearing it has something to do with making the suit appealing, I don't imagine it looking equally as good if on someone else

Well, they tailored the suit to Henry's physique so it should look good!
 
The green screen is there precisely as to not interfere with the blue. Green/Blue screens are interchangeable, depending on the primary colors within the shot.

If the color is "off", that's simply Snyder's preference of blue.

I can't take you word for it on this one. The "off" is snyder's preference? I don't think so, although he didn't help it. I notice the "off' in other movies that use heavy cgi backgrounds. Not a big deal, just a "me personally" type thing because I notice that type of stuff.
 
Just posted my list of flaws with MOS movie.Might suprise you that the neck snapping is not included
Heres the list
http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=29081915&postcount=816

I might be the only one to say this but… I completely agree with you. I'm interested to read your part 2 if for nothing else but to see if you hit other missed opportunities I see when I watch it. Now I know this is pointless bc the movie is done and they can't go back and fix these things. And it's not like Zack and team are going to read this and agree with us and address it in the next movies. Never-the-less, this is like therapy in geek form and I need it. lol
 
I might be the only one to say this but… I completely agree with you. I'm interested to read your part 2 if for nothing else but to see if you hit other missed opportunities I see when I watch it. Now I know this is pointless bc the movie is done and they can't go back and fix these things. And it's not like Zack and team are going to read this and agree with us and address it in the next movies. Never-the-less, this is like therapy in geek form and I need it. lol

Not the only one who agrees completely, count me in as well.
 
I might be the only one to say this but… I completely agree with you. I'm interested to read your part 2 if for nothing else but to see if you hit other missed opportunities I see when I watch it. Now I know this is pointless bc the movie is done and they can't go back and fix these things. And it's not like Zack and team are going to read this and agree with us and address it in the next movies. Never-the-less, this is like therapy in geek form and I need it. lol
Thanks for the positive responsive.The movie had so many ingredients to be perfect yet somehow missed them.

In my part 2.I plan to systematically show Id approach the movie.Its gonna be very long but I need to get it out of my system damn it.

Not the only one who agrees completely, count me in as well.
Thanks.
 
Thanks for the positive responsive.The movie had so many ingredients to be perfect yet somehow missed them.

In my part 2.I plan to systematically show Id approach the movie.Its gonna be very long but I need to get it out of my system damn it.


Thanks.


You're welcome. And Go For it. :woot:
 
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