The Dark Knight Rises In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

[Anno_Domini]

Yes, it's perfectly fine to think either way. Both opinions come with clear reasoning.

Agreed. It does become tiring to read the back and forth of the same thing over and over, but both sides definitely have their reasons and both are understandable.

I think we differ in our interpretations of The Joker as well. I found him to be someone who really enjoyed what he was doing. I found him to be doing what he wanted while the other two villains did what they thought was needed (the Bane motivational debate aside).

As soon as Nolan mentioned Ledger's idea of a "murderous clown with zero empathy", that really told me all I needed to know about their take of Joker. He has zero feelings, even if he seems like he enjoys what he does.

Sorry but you misunderstood me. What I meant was that the people of the Narrows freaked out without even seeing Scarecrow's mask - just because of the fear gas.

They main reason Nolan let Crane wear his mask in BB (the same goes for Joker's white facepaint, green hair and purple suit or Selina's catsuit and domino mask): He had to resemble his comic counterpart. Others than that a simple gas mask would have done the job.

You're right, but to Crane...he used that mask while experimenting the gas on the Arkham patients, so it wasn't really an idea of Nolan wanting to give Crane the mask just to use the mask...Nolan had his Crane using the burlap sack on his patients at Arkham Asylum from the beginning and he just continued to use the mask in TDK, but stopped in TDKR(but at least we got some fan service in by seeing those straws sticking out of his coat).

It could have worked with Bane, in the right hands. I don't mind seeing Bane's eyes, I thought that was alright but I didn't like that you could see his balding Mr. Clean head. They should have had some sort of cap or something that meshed well with the actual mask to hide the fact that he was a bald dude. Then maybe have the eye openings sort of be shaped like the comic eyes but smaller, that Spawn/Bane/Venom/Deadpool shape. Then Hardy or whoever played Bane could have still emoted with their eyes and brows.

Now we're saying him being bald was a bad thing? Lol.

As I said: "Bane is not that kind of a villain".

And, sorry, I am not so much into Star Wars. I have seen Episode IV to VI a couple of times and Episode I once - but that's it. But are you sure that Darth Vader really got sympathy points before Episode I to III hit the theatres (and before the climax of "Return Of The Jedi", of course)? Anyway, maybe the Darth Vader example was not the best. My fault.

At his moment of taking out the Emperor, being unmasked and what have you, I felt that Vader indeed gained some sympathy points with the audience for sure. He finally got out of the darkness and came into the light.

@Anno: I like it and I share your sentiments about giving Nolan more time or two films. I would've left the reporters alive until after Bane said "Gotham will survive." I'll add Bruce waiting for the next Joker and thus neglecting his leg to my headcanon for the missing years.

I was thinking about both on keeping the reporters alive until he was done with the speech, but I don't think it would seem to have much sense to have the Blackgate inmates running free while the reporters are still around. If anything, the cameras would still be rolling while the men and women are dead on the street.

And I felt the leg thing was necessary. And not so much as something that keeps Bruce from donning the suit, but a physical injury that resembles his emotional injury since Rachel's death.

I know the script of Dark Knight states that he's limping, but in the actual film I don't remember seeing his knee bothering him. Didn't he fall on his back too? Looks like his head and neck are all messed up. He seems to run away just fine (same run and cape flow that he does when he's running towards avenue X at Cicero), seems like shortness of breath if anything else.

I always thought the reason he was so out of breath, struggling, and acting sluggish was because of that shot in the gut and fall (not to mention the beating he took). He's always holding his lower abdomen in the end, not limping on. Unless the cartilage just deteriorated over the time span of the 8 years.

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It looked like he was limping for sure and not just him being out of breath. The way he was running looked crooked.

And I also felt the leg injury only got worse over time. While he was lopsided a bit in the end of TDK, it was nowhere as bad as it was in TDKR, and that's why I liked the idea of a nagging injury becoming bigger as a physical injury reflected an emotional injury as well eight years later. That, I think, it a great reason why Nolan wanted to develop an injury that we saw in the previous film than something that just magically appears during those missing eight years.

Also, I liked how, in the beginning of TDK, we see those developing bruises all over Bruce's back and we finally get an answer on all the injuries that Bruce sustained while he was Batman. Zero doctor visits and only Alfred helping him really put a toll on his entire body. Those kidney problems could have stemmed from knife shots from Joker and the gunshot from Dent.

 

[BatmanGoesToRio]

At his moment of taking out the Emperor, being unmasked and what have you, I felt that Vader indeed gained some sympathy points with the audience for sure. He finally got out of the darkness and came into the light.

Yes. That's what I meant with "climax of 'Return Of The Jedi'". There he got my sympathy as well.
But did he got sympathy points before? Just asking because you said he needed his mask for sympathy and I'm not a Star Wars fanboy. So I don't remember everything.

 

[Anno_Domini]

I don't count the prequel crap at all to be honest with you

 

[BatmanGoesToRio]

I don't count the prequel crap at all to be honest with you

I am talking about the original trilogy. Episode IV - VI as they call them nowadays. So with "before" I meant Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back and not the "prequel crap".

 

[Anno_Domini]

That's what I've been saying all along though. Episode VI, when Vader finally takes off the mask, brings a lot of sympathy to the character that is much needed in the original trilogy.

 

[Mjölnir]

Agreed. It does become tiring to read the back and forth of the same thing over and over, but both sides definitely have their reasons and both are understandable.

Yes, as long as people respect each others opinions it can create interesting conversations but unfortunately there are always some that go too far and try to push their opinions on others, or just try to annoy them with it.

As soon as Nolan mentioned Ledger's idea of a "murderous clown with zero empathy", that really told me all I needed to know about their take of Joker. He has zero feelings, even if he seems like he enjoys what he does.

It's one way to look at it but lack of empathy really just means that you lack the ability to feel what others feel, it's not a lack of emotions altogether. To me The Joker displays emotion as he enjoys what he does, but he feels nothing for his victims and is perhaps completely unable to do so for anyone.

 

[The Joker]

It's one way to look at it but lack of empathy really just means that you lack the ability to feel what others feel, it's not a lack of emotions altogether. To me The Joker displays emotion as he enjoys what he does, but he feels nothing for his victims and is perhaps completely unable to do so for anyone.

Exactly. Joker clearly enjoys what he does and that's displayed many times. Some of my favorites include when he bursts out laughing when they knock the Police helicopter out of the air. In fact he's still having a fit of the giggles about it a couple of shots later lol. The torture of the copycat Batman on TV, he is having a ball there. "Why do you dress up like him? Whooo hoo hoo hoo" waving the Batman mask around in front of him. That hilarious mad laughing fit he has when one of his henchmen electrocutes himself on Batman's cowl. When Batman throws him off the Prewitt building he laughs merrily all the way down. He is positively jubilant telling Batman what he's done to Dent. In fact that perfect parting shot of him was him laughing at Batman over that. Joker loves what he does. "I like this job. I like it!!!!".

I particularly love the joy and passion he displays about Batman and how much fun he is for him. We see him annoyed once, when the ferries don't blow each other up. He throws the metal bar he's holding away in anger then whips out the detonator and prepares to blow both ferries up.

 

[Anno_Domini]

I still don't view him showing a wide range emotion just because he enjoys what he does. He's far from the emotional man that Bane is or even Ra's.

 

[the last son]

If I was writing I would have had freeze be the villain and what would make batman and freeze on the same playing field is playing how they both lost their loves. At the end have batman give some sort of speech of how he knows what its like to lose the love of your life. It would have been similar to the speech spidey gave doc oc but slightly different.

 

[The Joker]

I still don't view him showing a wide range emotion just because he enjoys what he does. He's far from the emotional man that Bane is or even Ra's.

Nobody said he showed a WIDE range of emotions. I'd be very disappointed if he did. The Joker's not an overly emotional guy. He's pure evil.

The point is you said he had zero feelings. Not true. He showed feelings of enjoyment, anger, and even a bizarre version of love and obsession for Batman. It was not an emotionless performance and character. Far from it.

But the most emotional villain of the trilogy was easily Dent.

 

[Anno_Domini]

If I was writing I would have had freeze be the villain and what would make batman and freeze on the same playing field is playing how they both lost their loves. At the end have batman give some sort of speech of how he knows what its like to lose the love of your life. It would have been similar to the speech spidey gave doc oc but slightly different.

Ehh...save Mr. Freeze for a film where he could be done right outside of a franchise that wouldn't really give the villain justice.

Nobody said he showed a WIDE range of emotions. I'd be very disappointed if he did. The Joker's not an overly emotional guy. He's pure evil.

The point is you said he had zero feelings. Not true. He showed feelings of enjoyment, anger, and even a bizarre version of love and obsession for Batman. It was not an emotionless performance and character. Far from it.

But the most emotional villain of the trilogy was easily Dent.

Sorry, but I still don't count having this fascination of killing being the same as showing emotion. You may, but I don't.

I sorta agree with Dent, but I felt the Talia reveal really brought some great emotional depth to Bane of how he protected Talia in the Pit.

 

[Brain Damage]

Sorry, but I still don't count having this fascination of killing being the same as showing emotion. You may, but I don't.

You're missing the point. As The Joker said, Heath's Joker displays anger, frustration, joy and a weird form of love for Batman. Those are emotions. Whether they are related to killing or not, they are emotional responses. They are not something you can say doesn't count, regardless of whether you like them or not, those are emotions displayed by the character.

 

[The Joker]

You're missing the point. As The Joker said, Heath's Joker displays anger, frustration, joy and a weird form of love for Batman. Those are emotions. Whether they are related to killing or not, they are emotional responses. They are not something you can say doesn't count, regardless of whether you like them or not, those are emotions displayed by the character.

Exactly

 

[Anno_Domini]

You're missing the point. As The Joker said, Heath's Joker displays anger, frustration, joy and a weird form of love for Batman. Those are emotions. Whether they are related to killing or not, they are emotional responses. They are not something you can say doesn't count, regardless of whether you like them or not, those are emotions displayed by the character.

I just never thought of Joker to care any way of anything besides getting what he wanted, even if he needed Batman to be around to complete him(which would explain why Joker wouldn't be around in TDKR...Batman's not around, so Joker wouldn't want to be around as his other half isn't there).

 

[Brain Damage]

I just never thought of Joker to care any way of anything besides getting what he wanted, even if he needed Batman to be around to complete him.

And that's how the Joker should be. But how does that mean he doesn't have emotions? Extremely narcissistic people are emotional. Often times more-so than your average joe.

 

[JackWhite]

The moment I knew Nolan and Heath had nailed the Joker was the opening dialogue in the second trailer:

"You've changed things...forever. There's no going back. You see to them, you're just a freak....like me!"

Classic Joker dialogue, the shots of a defeated Bruce still sitting in his batsuit, Batman crashing onto a van, and the sweeping shot of Batman on the tall building, all culminating to the iconic shot of the Joker standing in the middle of the street looking deranged as hell. Those were just glimpses of the epic moral battle between the two that would ensue in TDK.

 

[BatmanGoesToRio]

I just never thought of Joker to care any way of anything besides getting what he wanted, even if he needed Batman to be around to complete him(which would explain why Joker wouldn't be around in TDKR...Batman's not around, so Joker wouldn't want to be around as his other half isn't there).

TDK's Joker had no empathy but he sure had emotions. He seemed to enjoy the interrogation with Batman sooo much, for example.

 

[batfreakforever]

It's bloody easy to say what you would & won't do with a film when the ground work is already done. Ie; the film is completed & has been seen.

 

[Anno_Domini]

^ I bet even Nolan himself has moments of what he'd do differently.

 

[Snow Queen]

I'd get Oldman to do one more take of his "Get ready!" line. Nitpicky, I know, but it just sounds so odd to me.

 

[Bane Cook]

The severity of the knee injury is kind of sketchy. I mean, if it were that bad Bruce wouldn't have been able to repel down several stories to get to Gordon's room when he was at the hospital. This was all before he got the brace too.

Ultimately, I view the whole knee injury as more of a metaphor for Bruce's mental state. It was more mind over matter. I even think Bruce kind of over sells his injury at times, like when he's getting out of his car at the masquerade ball. Then when he's inside talking to Talia and even Selina he's got his game face on.

But yeah, it seems like they were throwing around the idea of Bruce having the brace on the outside of the suit. Thank God they didn't go through with it.

As I've written before on this forum, I personally don't think they should have done anything with the knee injury. They should have left it injured and not given him some magical knee brace(that you never even see after it's introduced anyway). Have him with a limp constantly. When he's in private, have Bale sell it REALLY bad. When he's in public as Bruce Wayne, he acts like it's less severe(plus he has a cane). And when he's doing Batman type things, have no limp at all. And this is to show that he pushes the pain aside when he has to and so he doesn't show weakness. But the audience will know how much pain he's going through and that he is masking it. Maybe have a scene where he gets done destroying a bunch of thugs, but as soon as he makes his exit and turns the corner, he hunches/grimaces in severe pain. That would really get the point across.

And it also makes him a less effective fighter. During the Bane fight it would be very apparent. The fight starts off slightly in Bane's favor but still fairly even. But as the fight drags on, and as Batman is getting beat down, he starts losing his composure. He's wobbly from getting hit, out of breathe, and limping like he can barely walk. It just makes more sense as to why Batman got beat down they way he did, aside from not fighting for almost a decade. Without the use of his leg he is less agile to avoid Bane's strikes, and he can't load up on his own punches either. This is why Batman has lost a lot of punching power and why Bane is eating his shots no problem in addition to the numbing gas.

In Nolan's realistic world, this just makes so much more sense than that magic knee brace.

 

[Isearch4dope]

As I've written before on this forum, I personally don't think they should have done anything with the knee injury. They should have left it injured and not given him some magical knee brace(that you never even see after it's introduced anyway). Have him with a limp constantly. When he's in private, have Bale sell it REALLY bad. When he's in public as Bruce Wayne, he acts like it's less severe(plus he has a cane). And when he's doing Batman type things, have no limp at all. And this is to show that he pushes the pain aside when he has to and so he doesn't show weakness. But the audience will know how much pain he's going through and that he is masking it. Maybe have a scene where he gets done destroying a bunch of thugs, but as soon as he makes his exit and turns the corner, he hunches/grimaces in severe pain. That would really get the point across.

And it also makes him a less effective fighter. During the Bane fight it would be very apparent. The fight starts off slightly in Bane's favor but still fairly even. But as the fight drags on, and as Batman is getting beat down, he starts losing his composure. He's wobbly from getting hit, out of breathe, and limping like he can barely walk. It just makes more sense as to why Batman got beat down they way he did, aside from not fighting for almost a decade. Without the use of his leg he is less agile to avoid Bane's strikes, and he can't load up on his own punches either. This is why Batman has lost a lot of punching power and why Bane is eating his shots no problem in addition to the numbing gas.

In Nolan's realistic world, this just makes so much more sense than that magic knee brace.

Bullsf******eye. Thank you. The damn x-rays don't lie either with those people saying it was more psychological. Would have been so much better to actually see him struggling more with it than Nolan just letting him forget that it even existed and expecting us to just swallow it. The Talia stab at the end was also a moment of amnesia on Nolan's part. Like wtf! Come on...with things that important to the continuity of a story you just can't act like they don't exist. Another thing before I finish my rant. I feel as if though Nolan wanted to focus too much on spectacle and on the BIGGER picture that he forgot that the JOURNEY and it's details were just as important as the destination. With physicality (the villain was made on this basis so don't tell me about BB or TDK inconsistencies etc) playing such a major role in this movie it's like they just decided to play dumb when tackling it. Bane can punch through a concrete pillar and hurt Bruce with practically every punch in their first fight but all of a sudden he can take each punch (from a pissed off Bane going all out) because he found fear and started working out? Why on earth didn't Bane break or shatter his arm or why didn't Batman realize that his most dangerous blows (don't tell me he wasn't Batman yet or he was out for 8 years) weren't doing **** to this man and resort to just breaking one of his bones to immobilize him in fight one (pain or no pain he won't be able to move unless he was superhuman). With him finding fear I would've expected them to bring across the point with a more grounded approach other than I am also a superhuman now. Now if they would've even given Bruce the knee brace and an upgraded suit it wouldn't look so blatant.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

I know why Bane can punch through a pillar.


It's because it's a film based on childhood wish fulfilment that you can put on a mask, be brave and strong and fight all your bullies.

So not everything needs to be grounded.

 

[Anno_Domini]

It's the same with him being able to punch, and break, Batman's cowl.

 

[Shikamaru]

He is strong enough to punch through a pillar and break Batman's back with his bare hands despite Batman wearing armor yet the Venom drug is somehow unrealistic and cannot work in the Nolanverse.