BvS New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!)

[AnneFan]

It's sad to think of the opening scene with Clois. Clark walks in, smiling, happy and ready to embrace the love of his life. The topic of Superman's public grilling comes up, and it turns a little tense. And he takes his mind off it by giving Lois his love. One of the few times he could escape the torment.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Is it weird that I'm finding myself posting more and more negative comments in the other threads about Supes characterisation and the general direction they took with him from MOS to now ... but I still keep coming in here and agreeing with the good comments too?

I guess it's clash of preconceptions and open mind.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Agreed. Supes is a grassroots hero, and I dig that. But he's also a symbol, as Lois points out. I think they're doing interesting things with the character. I don't see him as being disrespected at all.

I haven't noticed any disrespect either.

 

[AnneFan]

I haven't noticed any disrespect either.

Indeed. Superman is Superman. It's all about perception.

 

[DeadPresident]

That's why I'm asking, because I see a lot of conflicting opinions and it intrigues me. I'm an established fan, but I like this Superman, I don't have any real complaints about how he's presented, I don't see anything particularly objectionable about the character. The arc they're giving him is not antithetical to the established Superman in the comics.

Which is why this interests me. Because it's the same Superman I know, but approached from a different angle and it seems to connect with people who aren't fans like me, even though it alienates other people who are fans like me.

I get what you're saying, and credit where it's due, you're showing a flexibility and acceptance that a lot of people aren't. I'm going to give a horrible analogy, but hopefully the principle works; established fans are used to Supes being able to run 50 miles without breaking a sweat. Snyder's route is showing Supes when he can comfortably run 5, then 25, and eventually 50. IMO it has merit because I think a lot of people find it difficult to engage with god-Supes where literally whatever he faces is completely pedestrian and within his ability to shrug off easily.

I get that a lot of people are used to him being at that level, but if it doesn't show the average viewer how he gets there they won't buy into him as an accessible character. That's why I think in the general consensus Batman is so engaging, because he constantly has to try and overcome stacked odds. When Supes has no stacked odds or obstacles to try and engage with, people kind of tune out, in my view anyways.

 

[DeadPresident]

See, even though I don't think it was ever that black and white, that's why I LOVE Superman.

The idea of Superman as this guy who would show up and the minute you saw him you new everything was going to be okay? That's my Superman.

I was really looking forward to the scene with the people on the roof in the flood. But there was something really off about that scene. The way he just lingered there, with them stretching out their arms in desperation. It was way more Dr Manhattan than Superman.

Superman would have swept them up in his arms immediately, gently settled them down somewhere safe, smiled at them in that powerful way he does and told them where okay now.

Similarly, when I need a break from how harsh the world can be, how dissapointing people can be, how dark things can go - I read/watch Superman, and he gives me this hope that there is always the potential for good in people... and that maybe everything is going to be okay.

He's the one consistent shining light in my life, my comfort food, my role model, my favourite fictional character to 'be around'.

That's understandable and I'm not saying he shouldn't be that way, but I appreciate that they're showing us his trajectory to being that guy. He didn't jump out of his ship as a newborn Kryptonian able to bear the weight of the world on his shoulders, he grew into it. They're showing the growth into that person, which is infinitely more valuable than just taking for granted that he's an infallible and pure hero who also happens to be near omnipotent.

It's a little selfish of established fans to think they "own" the character or have some kind of monopoly on how he's allowed to be depicted. It's only fair that people (who outnumber the established fans) get an opportunity to develop an affinity for Superman by witnessing his trials and tribulations - and are, hopefully, eventually delivered to the finished article.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

It's sad to think of the opening scene with Clois. Clark walks in, smiling, happy and ready to embrace the love of his life. The topic of Superman's public grilling comes up, and it turns a little tense. And he takes his mind off it by giving Lois his love. One of the few times he could escape the torment.

Yeah that's a great moment

I guess it's clash of preconceptions and open mind.

Definitely.

I mean, the boards are probably the key. Managed to stay away from the Superman boards from shortly after MOS until I saw BvS. No spoilers, no discussion about what I did or didn't want. Just a completely open mind.

And I had fun. And I loved bits of it. And generally walked away happy.

Watched it a second time, still felt this was a film I was really glad they made and that I would enjoy re watching again and again.

Now i'm back

And it's just... the more I talk about Superman, the more I remember what I love about him. What makes my heart swell. What makes me wanna write essays about how amazing he is.

And it makes me realize how much of that is missing in this movie.

I'm still accepting of that. I'm still able to enjoy the film. And I still like this Superman in his own way.

I'm just a bit sad I can't share my Superman with the world.

 

[Tra-El]

I haven't noticed any disrespect either.

Let me first start by saying that the Superman created in this DCEU isn't perfect and he doesn't live up to the "can do no wrong, smiling in every possible situation" status of what 'The Big Blue Boyscott' stigma has done to the character over time. I love the Big Blue Boyscout. I adore that version and I get that version.

But for an appetizer, I always, as a huge fan, asked for this type of flawed Superman that is both mentally confused and dissatisfied with the answers he is getting from the majority of existence as to why he is here and what purpose does he serve? I love this flaw and arc Man of Steel created and how it continues in Batman V Superman.

He's NOT the nostalgic; classic Superman fans all over the world, myself included, fell in love with...but ironically, I have instantly fell in love with this Superman for all the reasons on what classic Superman wasn't.

Am I fully content at where Snyder's Superman stands at the moment? I can't say yes, but that's the exact part that makes me a fan of this version. I'm totally ready to stand beside him on this journey, flaws and mistakes and all, to receive the ultimate payoff I'm almost certain I'll get that brings Superman full circle and not so 'one-note.'

Quite frankly, fans want things all NOW "or else" but for me? I would have felt dishonored, especially a fan of Man of Steel, if Superman's characterization would have immediately went to to iconic; classic status. That would have been lazy and a confession, to me, that the writers and director of this film agree that Superman is boring and that there is nothing else left for him to do.

Though this Superman is "questionable" and "full of flaws that makes questionable mistakes" IMO, this is the most respect the character has seen in some time. The story begs you to realize that all of those mean things said about Superman are simply.....wrong. We need to believe in him.

 

[dougal]

4th viewing this Saturday t:

That is great!

 

[hopefuldreamer]

That's understandable and I'm not saying he shouldn't be that way, but I appreciate that they're showing us his trajectory to being that guy. He didn't jump out of his ship as a newborn Kryptonian able to bear the weight of the world on his shoulders, he grew into it. They're showing the growth into that person, which is infinitely more valuable than just taking for granted that he's an infallible and pure hero who also happens to be near omnipotent.

I guess the reason a lot of fans aren't satisfied by that is that they thought MOS was his growth and that BvS would be the pay off.

To then be told 'Oh no, he's still growing, he's not quite there yet' is a tad frustrating. Especially when you have no guarantee that the day he is 'The Superman we all know and love' (as Cavill put it) may never come in this interpretation. He might always be disappointing to those fans. And they have no way of knowing whether it'll be worth the wait or they are just being strung along.

It's a little selfish of established fans to think they "own" the character or have some kind of monopoly on how he's allowed to be depicted. It's only fair that people (who outnumber the established fans) get an opportunity to develop an affinity for Superman by witnessing his trials and tribulations - and are, hopefully, eventually delivered to the finished article.

I was the GA once. All fans were.

Superman's fans are just people who watched/read his stories and witnessed his trials and tribulations and developed an affinity for him.

The problem is, Snyder isn't one of them. And he has added a lot of what he likes into the mix so that HE can enjoy it. Which is why other people who didn't really like Superman before, might like him more now that he's been altered to a different taste.

I don't get why people are so mad at him for that. I don't agree with him, but there is no reason he's not allowed to do it.

 

[OutOfBoose]

I'm just a bit sad I can't share my Superman with the world.

Right now they have such a huge potential to bring him back in a not only spectacular, but also touching way. His death reminded me of a scene from Man of Steel. Where he visits his mother after he discovered his origin.

-I'm worried they will take you away from me.
-I'm not going anywhere, Mom. I promise.

Imagine when he comes back.

 

[DeadPresident]

I guess the reason a lot of fans aren't satisfied by that is that they thought MOS was his growth and that BvS would be the pay off.

To then be told 'Oh no, he's still growing, he's not quite there yet' is a tad frustrating. Especially when you have no guarantee that the day he is 'The Superman we all know and love' (as Cavill put it) may never come in this interpretation. He might always be disappointing to those fans. And they have no way of knowing whether it'll be worth the wait or they are just being strung along.

Let's be fair though, it's been two movies. In the world of instant gratification where everyone has the attention span of a dead gold fish I understand that's an eternity - but it's not actually that long. Not considering the quick succession films are going to be coming out at now.

I was the GA once. All fans were.

Superman's fans are just people who watched/read his stories and witnessed his trials and tribulations and developed an affinity for him.

The problem is, Snyder isn't one of them. And he has added a lot of what he likes into the mix so that HE can enjoy it. Which is why other people who didn't really like Superman before, might like him more now that he's been altered to a different taste.

I don't get why people are so mad at him for that. I don't agree with him, but there is no reason he's not allowed to do it.

Precisely, but if people aren't comic book junkies that follow his story arcs how will they ever see his trials and tribulations if he doesn't go through them on film? You see the logic in your post highly suggests you've made your mind up that this Supes won't become your Superman. Since we haven't seen this creative team conclude this Superman story how can you say? If JL1 comes out and Superman is the shining beacon that humanity assembles around is everyone going to come out and apologize to Snyder and Terrio? Probably not. You just said you were the GA once, well this current GA needs to see their Superman survive and triumph over his trials if they're going to become massive fans, if you want your Superman don't complain when people don't buy into an omnipotent god-like character.

And again, this Superman hasn't been altered, that's a completely fallacious statement. He's been shown in a process of development. That's like saying a cocoon is an "altered" butterfly. No, it isn't, it's just not there yet. Terrio has communicated that BvS is the Empire Strikes Back of this arc, and that JL1 is far lighter - let's see if that ends up being the case before we start throwing out weighty statements like "They don't get the character" or "They did him wrong". I can understand people's impatience, but a lot of folks are jumping the gun.

 

[NeoRanger]

To then be told 'Oh no, he's still growing, he's not quite there yet' is a tad frustrating. Especially when you have no guarantee that the day he is 'The Superman we all know and love' (as Cavill put it) may never come in this interpretation. He might always be disappointing to those fans. And they have no way of knowing whether it'll be worth the wait or they are just being strung along.

This split is also interesting to me. Like you, I'm not the GA, I'm a fan. Superman is extremely important to me and has been, as a fantasy, as a hero, as a behavioral and moral archetype and example since I was a child.

But the Superman you saw in this movie isn't the Superman I saw. I saw a Superman that's pretty much there, but the movie makes a point to show him in his 'bad days', so to speak. I blame the film itself, because it cuts away a lot from Superman to stuff everything else in its run-time. But I honestly don't see anything in this Superman that I don't fully expect to see in any other Superman, given the right framework/context.

 

[WoodyROM]

Right now they have such a huge potential to bring him back in a not only spectacular, but also touching way. His death reminded me of a scene from Man of Steel. Where he visits his mother after he discovered his origin.

-I'm worried they will take you away from me.
-I'm not going anywhere, Mom. I promise.

Imagine when he comes back.

You made me a little misty eyed this morning

Another thing that is echoed from MOS (pointed out in a recent article), and I can't believe I missed it, was him being surrounded by "skulls" in the Day of the Dead scene.

 

[BH/HHH]

I just nearly turned off the Batman News podcast on BvS they said (paraphrasing) that Superman didn't have an arc in the film and he was the most disapointing characater in the film. But maybe even worse Sean Gerber basically said (again paraphrasing) it was ok for Batman to kill the way he did in the Nolan films but not in this.

 

[AnneFan]

I just nearly turned off the Batman News podcast on BvS they said (paraphrasing) that Superman didn't have an arc in the film and he was the most disapointing characater in the film. But maybe even worse Sean Gerber basically said (again paraphrasing) it was ok for Batman to kill the way he did in the Nolan films but not in this.

Yeah. I feel the same way about some of the 'criticisms' BvS receives.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Is it weird that I'm finding myself posting more and more negative comments in the other threads about Supes characterisation and the general direction they took with him from MOS to now ... but I still keep coming in here and agreeing with the good comments too?

Superman is boring. No one cares about him anymore.

 

[HELLilac]

I just nearly turned off the Batman News podcast on BvS they said (paraphrasing) that Superman didn't have an arc in the film and he was the most disapointing characater in the film. But maybe even worse Sean Gerber basically said (again paraphrasing) it was ok for Batman to kill the way he did in the Nolan films but not in this.

Superman's arc is the heart of the story.

Batman might take the main role but his arc is the secondary one.

It baffles me how such wrong opinion can be voiced out loud. I'd be embarrassed.

 

[spider-neil]

Yeah. I feel the same way about some of the 'criticisms' BvS receives.

The criticism that annoyed me most was from Kevin Smith Ralph Garman regarding the Bruce Wayne quote; 'If there is even a 1% chance of Superman going bad we have to take it as an absolute certainty (paraphrasing)'. They mocked that Batman thinks 1% = 100%
Well, when you are dealing with a being that is so powerful he could literally destroy the earth, then yes, 1% may as well be 100%
Bear in mind that Batman saw Harvey Dent and Jason Todd go bad and they were human.

 

[WoodyROM]

I just nearly turned off the Batman News podcast on BvS they said (paraphrasing) that Superman didn't have an arc in the film and he was the most disapointing characater in the film. But maybe even worse Sean Gerber basically said (again paraphrasing) it was ok for Batman to kill the way he did in the Nolan films but not in this.

I was debating listening to that one, thanks for the heads up If you haven't listened to the Batman on Film podcast from yesterday I suggest giving that one a listen. Mark Hughes is the guest, and the 3 of them all have different opinions about the film (none of them hated it), so it was an good and interesting conversation.

 

[Tra-El]

Supes didn't have an arc? *Laughs. That's ridiculous.

 

[AnneFan]

Supes didn't have an arc? *Laughs. That's ridiculous.

The movie has a low Tomato Meter though, so all criticisms must be valid...

 

[spider-neil]

Supes didn't have an arc? *Laughs. That's ridiculous.

Batman has an arc, no question. He is a different character at the end of the movie then he was at the start. Does Superman character change over the course of the movie? If so, how is he different? I guess he doesn't trust Batman at first and the character arc is he is willing to put the life of his mum in the hands of someone he earlier wanted to shut down. So I guess is a character arc.

 

[Sónia]

Many people criticize how they approach Superman, and I "finally they did something else with the Superman"

Superman was always showing as:

• Clark Kent (nerd journalist) and Superman (perfect superhero)

I wanted and got more with the BvS

Funny how people criticize Supergirl (TV) for being cheerful and light, and now criticize BvS because Superman was not cheerful and light

 

[AnneFan]

Part of Superman's arc is that he was emotionally dented by the bombing at the hearing, and the general hounding about his place in the world. He went away and had time to himself, only to return and save Lois. She is his anchor. Even though the world may never love him, he loves Lois, and saved the world for her and everyone else. He came back to help because it's in his blood.