No Time To Die (Bond 25)

[Schlosser85]

I don't know what some of these other comments were, but I'm talking about the last page where some of us were saying what Connery or Moore used to do in the old Bond films. I would've assumed you were referring to those since you said that no-one wants an abusing Bond today, which is my point that no-one is saying they want that but just that this is what he did back then. But on that note, Craig did actually force himself on Monica Belluci's character in Spectre after her husband died, which was uncomfortable as well.

Did he "force himself" on her, though? She didn't seem to mind.

 

[Mysteryman]

Not only did Bond not force himself on her, she told him about the next meeting of Spectre, which Bond proceeded to infiltrate.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Did he "force himself" on her, though? She didn't seem to mind.

Yeah... I don’t remember it playing out like that.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Man, I would’ve volunteered to carried her husband’s coffin, and also said nothing but good things about the man...I would’ve still tried to get with widowed Bellucci right after. Bond was right.

Hell yeah. The greatest sin of that film was underutilizing Bellucci. She’s a goddess and then some.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Disagree that it's heavy handed but I agree that the line is out of context (can't believe that needs to be explained to some). Saying a line "makes zero logical sense" when you haven't seen the movie or heard the entire conversation between the characters...makes zero logical sense. And even beyond that, like I said to one of the MGTOW angry fanboys on another platform who was ranting about "disrespect"...since when is Bond above being disrespected? Especially by a character that he will pretty clearly have an antagonistic relationship with (at least for a while) in the movie? People can try to murder him but no one can talk s**t to him?

I think it's heavy handed because it comes off like they need to make her antagonistic towards Bond to somehow show she's his equal, without any context at least, where as they just showed Ana Armas doing something badass and we know she's on their level as well. It's like in movies where they roll out the buttoned up FBI agents and make them obnoxious and petty with their juristiction just to make the hero character look cooler. When I look at the best female action characters of the last 5 years or so none of them have been written to talk trash to guys and down to them in order to build them up, instead they are simply written as smart, resourceful and kickass so we know that she's the equal of the males in the movie. I get that the gender and race aspect has led to this triggering people, but I'd think they were setting the character up to be an overconfident and obnoxious foil for Bond if it was a white dude, like C from SPECTRE, it was clear how they wanted us to feel as he was obnoxious and antagonistic off the bat towards people he was supposed to be on the same side as.

 

[KaijuDude1992]

Skyfall is still one of my top Bond movies. My biggest problems with it are that it starts bigger than it ends with Bond and M playing Home Alone with Silva and his goons, and the other thing that's not really specifically a flaw of Skyfall itself, but just the way in Casino Royale he's the newly-minted 00 and then like one and a half movies later, he's the old world-weary veteran agent who's "played out" and should just retire before his aging worn-out body falls apart.

Because it was a meta film about the bond franchise. The Bond in skyfall is less Craig's Bond and more a sort of distilled movie Bond. It sacrifices the story of Craig's Bond to tell a story about the franchise. It's alos a very patriotic movie that captures the British public sentiment leading up to Brexit. That makes it a very time specific movie.

It doesn't have the timeless edge of Casino Royale. Which is just as good today.

God I don't think I could have summed it more perfectly as to why Casino Royale is still my favorite of the Craig Bond films. As awesome as a lot of things are about Skyfall I was never a huge fan of that third act at his family home not to mention all the back and forth with him being a top agent in one movie and then a washed up old man in the next movie.

 

[Black Narcissus]

Hell yeah. The greatest sin of that film was underutilizing Bellucci. She’s a goddess and then some.

 

[DACrowe]

Bond is driving a car named after the place where soldiers go when they die...interesting...

Also, it’s absurdly clear they’re pandering to the woke folks with several of Lynch’s lines in the trailer. They make zero logical sense other than being subtle-as-a-cleaver examples of what again passes for social commentary in film these days, i.e bludgeoning the audience over the head with how progressive and forward thinking their casting is by actually inserting references to it in the narrative.

A villainous Bond girl talking to him like that? Makes complete sense. A fellow 00 agent talking to a service legend like that? Definitely has nothing to do with the recent criticism of Bond’s character being an archaic white chauvinist that writers feel they need to emergency-correct in the story

Out of curiosity, did you feel this strongly about it when M literally called Bond a "misogynistic dinosaur and relic of the Cold War" in GoldenEye? Or Natalia, his love interest, in the same film saying "you're like boys with toys?"

Or what about Rosamund Pike being introduced as unimpressed with 007's charms in Die Another Day? (Hardly a good movie, but it's the same initial dynamic.)

And there was that time when Vesper totally dresses down Bond on their first meeting. "I wouldn't go as far as calling you a cold hearted bastard, but it wouldn't be a step to imagine..." and she later says "I sized you up the moment we met."

No one minds any of these. In fact, many consider Vesper the greatest Bond girl and GoldenEye one of the best in the canon. So why is one line in a trailer from Lynch upsetting so many fans?

 

[Schlosser85]

Feigned outrage ironically like the same things they’re so triggered by from SJWs. Two sides of the same tiresome coin of fake money.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I didn’t feel anything in particular about that line, but I could imagine some might see it more as a direct insult and challenge to Bond given that Nomi is (presumably) the new 007. Though going by what was reported a while back, Bond does try and hit on her. So I could see this scene in context being her more or less laying out that it’s never going to happen.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I think everyone just needs to chill the **** out and get off of Twitter. Your state of mind will improve.

 

[Sebastos]

What a trailer. From the visuals to the set designs, really like the direction they went with for NTTD. Hope Craig gets to bow out on a high note, easily my second favorite Bond after Connery.

 

[MilkmanDan]

The first few heavy handed comments in this threads after the trailer were questioning Lynch’s comments towards Bond and questioning her as a “equal” to Bond.

Pretty ironic some of those commentators don’t do that when a male (white) villain does the same to Bond in every movie or novel... yet a black woman does it (who clearly is an equal, considering she’s a 00 agent in the film) they’re baffled and angry.

It’s the same nonsense with Rey and Star Wars. Why question Luke’s easy capability with The Force, when he’s a white male. But, Zod forbid if a woman does the same exact thing as a man did before her in 1977.

Yeah, the objections to Lynch's character are silly. And I can't imagine a similar reaction to Sean Bean's Alec Trevelyan. He was clearly portrayed as Bond's equal and a worthy foil. Also, Halle Berry's Jinx was meant to be a badass agent in her own right. As was Michelle Yeoh's character in Tomorrow Never Dies. And I don't think any of those examples were controversial at the time. It's seems to be only recently that the boogeymen of feminism and diversity make insecure people, okay men, have disproportionate reactions to prominent "minority" characters.

Not sure I agree with you on Rey, though. I mean I like Rey just fine, but I don't think her use of the Force is the same as Luke's. In A New Hope Luke uses the Force to guide him in taking a difficult shot. In The Force Awakens, Rey is shown to be pretty evenly matched with Kylo Ren whether they fight with lightsabers or by using the Force mentally. I know the point of Kylo Ren is that he's no Darth Vader, but he's still the main bad guy who's been trained as a Jedi since childhood. And in The Empire Strikes Back, Luke's training shows him struggling to move small rocks with his mind, whereas Rey saves her friends by elevating large boulders. Make of it what you will but Rey is definitely portrayed as being much better at adapting to using the Force.

 

[DeadPresident]

Out of curiosity, did you feel this strongly about it when M literally called Bond a "misogynistic dinosaur and relic of the Cold War" in GoldenEye? Or Natalia, his love interest, in the same film saying "you're like boys with toys?"

Or what about Rosamund Pike being introduced as unimpressed with 007's charms in Die Another Day? (Hardly a good movie, but it's the same initial dynamic.)

And there was that time when Vesper totally dresses down Bond on their first meeting. "I wouldn't go as far as calling you a cold hearted bastard, but it wouldn't be a step to imagine..." and she later says "I sized you up the moment we met."

No one minds any of these. In fact, many consider Vesper the greatest Bond girl and GoldenEye one of the best in the canon. So why is one line in a trailer from Lynch upsetting so many fans?

Was the purpose of any of those statements expressly to lecture the audience about real world race and gender relations and to unsubtly “correct” social beliefs about representation...?

Out of curiosity - were any of them repeatedly featured in the trailer for a movie, where it seems somewhat out of place? Your examples aren’t exactly equivalent to this instance but more importantly those examples didn’t come across as having a purpose outside of the movie’s story - in 2019 we’re being pandered and finger-wagged to through entertainment perpetually now, so that’s the lens to read this through.

Like I’ve said before, I don’t mind that it happens, it should happen - but can we please get writers that are adept at weaving that into a story rather than this Laurel and Hardy on the nose ****?

 

[Roose Bolton]

....Onatopp

 

[DeadPresident]

Disagree that it's heavy handed but I agree that the line is out of context (can't believe that needs to be explained to some). Saying a line "makes zero logical sense" when you haven't seen the movie or heard the entire conversation between the characters...makes zero logical sense. And even beyond that, like I said to one of the MGTOW angry fanboys on another platform who was ranting about "disrespect"...since when is Bond above being disrespected? Especially by a character that he will pretty clearly have an antagonistic relationship with (at least for a while) in the movie? People can try to murder him but no one can talk s**t to him?

You guys really love playing coy about the two identities at play don’t you? Interesting how you can be so direct and laser focused on other things but it escapes you how a black woman talking down to a white man is specifically designed in this instance as some kind of poorly executed wish fulfillment like so much entertainment is these days.

Is it possible you support this specifically because it’s a black woman talking down to a white man? I’ve got no issue with anyone in a movie treating Bond like absolute ****, not even Lynch’s character - my question is why? Sure, more context necessary as to how it relates to the story granted, it’s just fascinating that it’s repeatedly in a trailer and really shoved in there so even the troglodytes will pick it up. It’s almost like stories aren’t just stories anymore but they’ve got to establish their progressive credentials lest the internet crazies tear down your franchise.

 

[Dark Raven]

....Onatopp

That name doesn't even sound Russian. At least if they called her something like Bendova that would follow Russian surnames.

 

[RockSP]

You guys really love playing coy about the two identities at play don’t you? Interesting how you can be so direct and laser focused on other things but it escapes you how a black woman talking down to a white man is specifically designed in this instance as some kind of poorly executed wish fulfillment like so much entertainment is these days.

Or...could it be that I simply don't agree with you that that is what's happening? Reminds me of an instance years ago either on this forum or another comic related forum when some fanboy was upset Green Lantern (John Stewart) and Black Lightning had a brief conversation with each other. This insecure individual went on to rant about how their talk was "I'm black, you're black, we're black" when race had absolutely nothing to do with it:

https://i.ibb.co/gzyX8Gc/RCO010-w.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Bt6PFrk/RCO011.jpg

But people can read into and make a big deal out of anything if they try hard enough.

Is it possible you support this specifically because it’s a black woman talking down to a white man? I’ve got no issue with anyone in a movie treating Bond like absolute ****, not even Lynch’s character - my question is why? Sure, more context necessary as to how it relates to the story granted, it’s just fascinating that it’s repeatedly in a trailer and really shoved in there so even the troglodytes will pick it up. It’s almost like stories aren’t just stories anymore but they’ve got to establish their progressive credentials lest the internet crazies tear down your franchise.

LOL, nice try. It seems you're upset that a black women is "talking down" to a white man so you want to project the opposite onto me. "Support" has nothing to with it. It is one chopped up scene in a trailer for a movie that I likely won't even see in theatres, just like most other Bond films. The only Bond movies I've ever paid to see were Casino Royale (my favorite so far) and Quantum of Solace. So yeah, sorry but the fact that I find it amusing how triggered some of you out there are over this is simply that: me finding it amusing...but not surprising.

 

[DeadPresident]

Or...could it be that I simply don't agree with you that that is what's happening? Reminds me of an instance years ago either on this forum or another comic related forum when some fanboy was upset Green Lantern (John Stewart) and Black Lightning had a brief conversation with each other. This insecure individual went on to rant about how their talk was "I'm black, you're black, we're black" when race had absolutely nothing to do with it:

https://i.ibb.co/gzyX8Gc/RCO010-w.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Bt6PFrk/RCO011.jpg

But people can read into and make a big deal out of anything if they try hard enough.

Why would someone be 'upset' over that? It makes no sense and is indeed somewhat absurd.

LOL, nice try. It seems you're upset that a black women is "talking down" to a white man so you want to project the opposite onto me. "Support" has nothing to with it. It is one chopped up scene in a trailer for a movie that I likely won't even see in theatres, just like most other Bond films. The only Bond movies I've ever paid to see were Casino Royale (my favorite so far) and Quantum of Solace. So yeah, sorry but the fact that I find it amusing how triggered some of you out there are over this is simply that: me finding it amusing...but not surprising.

You've used this ploy with me many times before and it's still as juvenile and transparent as it was all the times before - you really like disingenuously using terms like 'upset' or 'triggered' to misrepresent my comments. It's quite a tiresome habit.

As an aside, my question was rhetorical - I know you support it because I've watched you flit from the Racism topic to every thread where black actors are cast in roles and you enthusiastically participate in all of them so the trend of your support is quite clear. I'm sure you chase down MRA's, MGTOWs and MAGAts to aggravate as sport, too, right? For my part, I'm not 'upset' or 'triggered' (hang out on Twitter less, fam) that Lynch's character is talking down to Bond, my opinion is simply that if film makers want to vicariously deliver social progress in their stories (as is currently very in vogue) to viewers by employing identity politics shenanigans they'd be far more successful if they got someone intelligent to do it rather than the screen-writing version of Lena Dunham, that's all.

 

[Enriquespy]

It's two agents,

With the young one doing some overconfident boasting, asserting self talk.

Just some dick measuring.

Everyone is projecting everything into everyone else and fighting over some banter on a spy film.

 

[Dark Raven]

It's two agents,

With the young one doing some overconfident boasting, asserting self talk.

Just some dick measuring.

Everyone is projecting everything into everyone else and fighting over some banter on a spy film.

Hopefully Bond doesn't discover that there really is something to measure there after the inevitable scene where she gives in to his charms.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Yeah, the objections to Lynch's character are silly. And I can't imagine a similar reaction to Sean Bean's Alec Trevelyan. He was clearly portrayed as Bond's equal and a worthy foil. Also, Halle Berry's Jinx was meant to be a badass agent in her own right. As was Michelle Yeoh's character in Tomorrow Never Dies. And I don't think any of those examples were controversial at the time. It's seems to be only recently that the boogeymen of feminism and diversity make insecure people, okay men, have disproportionate reactions to prominent "minority" characters.

Not sure I agree with you on Rey, though. I mean I like Rey just fine, but I don't think her use of the Force is the same as Luke's. In A New Hope Luke uses the Force to guide him in taking a difficult shot. In The Force Awakens, Rey is shown to be pretty evenly matched with Kylo Ren whether they fight with lightsabers or by using the Force mentally. I know the point of Kylo Ren is that he's no Darth Vader, but he's still the main bad guy who's been trained as a Jedi since childhood. And in The Empire Strikes Back, Luke's training shows him struggling to move small rocks with his mind, whereas Rey saves her friends by elevating large boulders. Make of it what you will but Rey is definitely portrayed as being much better at adapting to using the Force.

Yeah, in the case of Rey, she's so adept at using the force in TFA (and much more so than Luke was in ANH) that people were speculating that she had been secretly trained in using the force (potentially by Luke) and then made to forget. Of course, that may have actually been Abrams' intention, but then he handed it off to Rian Johnson, who did nothing with that and we're just supposed to assume I guess that being able to fight pretty well with a staff makes you good with a lightsaber. I don't really have an issue with Rey being as good as she is but I feel like having her beat Kylo in the first episode kind of kills the momentum for any future fight between the two of them, because she's obviously going to win (again). What made that aspect of the original trilogy good was Luke wouldn't have lasted a second against Vader in ANH, got his ass handed to him in ESB, and then finally beats him in ROTJ. If Luke had fought Vader in ANH or even in ESB and defeated him, then the rematch in ROTJ wouldn't have had as much impact and Vader wouldn't have felt like as much of a threatening presence as he did.

Anyway, this isn't a thread about SW but I agree with you; I feel like they jumped the gun a bit with her and it's part of why Kylo kinda feels like a weak villain at this point.

 

[Enriquespy]

Hopefully Bond doesn't discover that there really is something to measure there after the inevitable scene where she gives in to his charms.

"We are bot top agents, but this time one of us must bottom"

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Loved the trailer personally this looks great

 

[BlackFox]

Great looking trailer, classic Bond elements all there, Ana de Armas looks fffnnnggghhh.