Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - Part 15

[dark_b]

Some people think that while Tolkein Estate may not sell rights to WB but they could sell them to some other Studio, most fans (on One Ring.net) want Disney to acquire the rights and make movies.

Looks like everyone is hopping on to the Disney bandwagon.

i hate when fans become fans of movie studios and not movies.

this is whats happening with Marvel and Disney. i guess because they are young

 

[Donut]

It's a shame they can't do anymore movies

 

[Vartha]

They're very protective of the original stories, and don't want them to be sullied by poor adaptations. JRR himself seems to have felt the same way, as evidenced by his letters, which also indicate that the film rights would not have been sold at all unless he needed the money. The Tolkien estate, nowadays, is not in the position of needing the money, and I doubt that the sound and fury of these Hobbit adaptations has liberalised their view of the merit in movie adaptations.

I find it very sad. The fact that the licence to produce films based on JRR Tolkien's fiction is so hard won underlines the status of any studio who holds it as a trustee of the fiction itself, with a duty not to bring it into ridicule. In my opinion, PJ has done just that.

Yep. WB and Jackson have no more rights to any more Tolkien material. And the Tolkien estate seems very unlikely to sell the rights to anything else. This very well could be the last Middle Earth film we will see in our lifetimes.

Some people think that while Tolkein Estate may not sell rights to WB but they could sell them to some other Studio, most fans (on One Ring.net) want Disney to acquire the rights and make movies.

Looks like everyone is hopping on to the Disney bandwagon.

As much as I like Marvel and Disney, I would rather see Tolkein's work go to another Company if they WERE released. Though even as much Tolkein disliked Disney, the company in many ways isn't the same as it was back then


It still shocks me that the Estate won't release the other properties. Yeah, I understand the Estate unwilling to have them not properly made, but, PJ didn't COMPLETELY trash Hobbit and LOTR.

 

[Drizzle]

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I don't want to see any more Middle Earth movies. The Silmarillion is far better suited for a miniseries.

 

[Vartha]

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I don't want to see any more Middle Earth movies. The Silmarillion is far better suited for a miniseries.

I agree. You just have to compress so much in 2 or 3 hours. A series can spread out stories over a longer time

 

[Super Kal]

I agree. You just have to compress so much in 2 or 3 hours. A series can spread out stories over a longer time

i would be all for a tv miniseries of the Silmarillion

 

[ares834]

It would be impossible to do a Silmarillion miniseries on a miniseries budget.

 

[Micromind]

How about a Netflix series ?

 

[Jaspertian1105]

Silmarillon would be R rated if done properly, so you wont see it in cinemas. A mini series maybe in 10 years will be doable but still its a very hard story to adapt because Tolkien himself didn't finish it, so the narrative in some parts feels a bit incoherent. The amount of names and characters is just insane, its not impossible to do but you don't have a main character through the whole thing , unlike GOT were you have Tyrion. Here the narrative goes through the centuries so the one who tries to adapt it will have a daunting task, with battles that dwarf the ones in the movies, Balrogs, dragons, Gods, its just a massive massive thing.

I for one dont want to see the hand of Jackson in this adaptations. I have a lot of problems with the movies, the ones i liked the most are Fellowship and the first Hobbit. The rest just become too messy and way too many unnecessary changes. i want someone else vision in the future, Lucas takes a lot of **** for the prequels (which i like personally) , but Jackson really abuses CG far more. Lucas had a vision that needed a lot of CG, unfortunately the tech was not up to the task. With Jackson i feel a lot of the stuff he does could be done practically but he chooses to go for CG. Dont get me wrong, i am a CG animator and work with it almost every day but i think that if you can make something in camera is the better way to go. But Jackson just seem to ignore that and this movies are coming out kinda fake looking (except Smaug which is gorgeous)

 

[ares834]

Why would it be R-rated?

Anyway, the best way I see it is to treat the stories as individual stories. Have a movie or two for the Flight of the Noldor, have a movie about the Battle of Sudden Flame, another about the Lay of Luthien, another about the tale of Turin, and of course a movie about the Fall of Gondolin. The first three would act sorta as a trilogy and focus on the same characters like Fingolfin, Feanor, and Maedhros. The next three would be "stand alone" movies. However, I have no clue how to do the War of Wrath.

 

[Jaspertian1105]

Why would it be R-rated?

Anyway, the best way I see it is to treat the stories as individual stories. Have a movie or two for the Flight of the Noldor, have a movie about the Battle of Sudden Flame, another about the Lay of Luthien, another about the tale of Turin, and of course a movie about the Fall of Gondolin. The first three would act sorta as a trilogy and focus on the same characters like Fingolfin, Feanor, and Maedhros. The next three would be "stand alone" movies. However, I have no clue how to do the War of Wrath.

Rated R because theres more mature stuff including incest, more graphic deaths like people being torn in half, arrows to the eyes, beheadings, elves being tortured. Its a much more violent book with heavier themes, actually is pretty somber, most of the wars end horribly with the villans winning and the descriptions are pretty violent. You could tone down the story but i think it wouldn't be faithful to the book

 

[Infinity9999x]

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I don't want to see any more Middle Earth movies. The Silmarillion is far better suited for a miniseries.

I personally can't imagine the Silmarillion in anything other than book form unless it's adapted A LOT. It's filled with interesting information, bit it's very dry. The writers would really be left to themselves to give the characters personality.

 

[regwec]

If the Silmarillion were to be adapted, I think it should be through some kind of animation. It should also be adapted in parts rather than as a whole. By analogy, Biblical stories have made successful films, but nobody has been foolhardy enough to try to adapt the whole Bible into a movie.

As much as the scale of the Silmarillion presents a difficulty, so does its tone. The undercurrent of the whole cycle is that evil triumphs by default, and that good defeats it only rarely, fleetingly, and by huge sacrifice. The heroes always die, either in a brief moment of triumph or in the most abject failure, despair and humiliation. It's a fascinating work of fiction, and it feels more like a philosophical work than straightforward storytelling. Its message seems to be that the world is fallen and that we should bare all its cruelties manfully while hoping for redemption. I think JRR's Christian faith really shows through.

While some audiences may persevere with the gloomy tone, so long as it is served with sufficient visual beauty, I don't think that tone could survive the populist vandalism that appears to be mandatory in crafting a modern blockbuster.

 

[Infinity9999x]

If the Silmarillion were to be adapted, I think it should be through some kind of animation. It should also be adapted in parts rather than as a whole. By analogy, Biblical stories have made successful films, but nobody has been foolhardy enough to try to adapt the whole Bible into a movie.

As much as the scale of the Silmarillion presents a difficulty, so does its tone. The undercurrent of the whole cycle is that evil triumphs by default, and that good defeats it only rarely, fleetingly, and by huge sacrifice. The heroes always die, either in a brief moment of triumph or in the most abject failure, despair and humiliation. It's a fascinating work of fiction, and it feels more like a philosophical work than straightforward storytelling. Its message seems to be that the world is fallen and that we should bare all its cruelties manfully while hoping for redemption. I think JRR's Christian faith really shows through.

While some audiences may persevere with the gloomy tone, so long as it is served with sufficient visual beauty, I don't think that tone could survive the populist vandalism that appears to be mandatory in crafting a modern blockbuster.

If audiences can eat up GOT like they have, I don't think they'd have an issue with Silmarillion. None of the straight laced heroes in GOT have come out on top as of yet.

I would be worried about getting very good writers for Silmarillion though. Tolkien gave us quick outlines of characters, very similar to characters in the Bible actually (fitting, given that Silmarillion is really Tolkien's genesis). It would be up to the showrunners to really give these characters life. I think a shirt miniseries would be best, but you're going to need creators who really respect and love this material. Like GOT really. And even when you have that you'll still have some mishandling of the material.

 

[regwec]

I don't think the comparison between GOT and the Silmarillion is as compelling as it might initially appear. While GOT has some extremely nasty characters, it has plenty of roguish anti-heroes and clear-eyed heroines to balance the elements. Even many of its villains have redeeming qualities (not all). The world in which it is set is a neutral playing field between the opposing forces.

Large parts of the Silmarillion occur when the whole world, excepting some small hidden oases of hope, is under the yoke of the forces of "hell". That makes for a much more dystopian background to events. What is more, the heroes that die in the Silmarillion are often the only sympathetic characters, and the center of all events, as opposed to one of several "goodies" in an ensemble in GOT. If LOTR's story was rewritten to fit the tone of much of the Silmarillion, Sauron would have won in FOTR, Frodo and Sam would have died at the moment of defeating him, and the story would end with Arwen committing suicide beside Aragorn's deathbed.

Edit: No GOT spoilers in here please!

 

[Jaspertian1105]

If audiences can eat up GOT like they have, I don't think they'd have an issue with Silmarillion. None of the straight laced heroes in GOT have come out on top as of yet.

I would be worried about getting very good writers for Silmarillion though. Tolkien gave us quick outlines of characters, very similar to characters in the Bible actually (fitting, given that Silmarillion is really Tolkien's genesis). It would be up to the showrunners to really give these characters life. I think a shirt miniseries would be best, but you're going to need creators who really respect and love this material. Like GOT really. And even when you have that you'll still have some mishandling of the material.

I think the Silmarillon can get away with a lot more of mishandling or changes than any other work of Tolkien. Jackson did a ton of mishandling and most of the audience didn't cared about, i think the Silmarillon would be much more open for interpretation and there will be more gaps to be filled.

 

[Octoberist]

One of the appeals of GOT is the taboo-ish of the series. There's literally no boundaries.

 

[regwec]

Yeah, but I'm not just talking about gore and nudity. I am making a point about the acute atmosphere of melancholy and fatalism that pervades Silmo (as I am now going to call it).

 

[Infinity9999x]

I don't think the comparison between GOT and the Silmarillion is as compelling as it might initially appear. While GOT has some extremely nasty characters, it has plenty of roguish anti-heroes and clear-eyed heroines to balance the elements. Even many of its villains have redeeming qualities (not all). The world in which it is set is a neutral playing field between the opposing forces.

Large parts of the Silmarillion occur when the whole world, excepting some small hidden oases of hope, is under the yoke of the forces of "hell". That makes for a much more dystopian background to events. What is more, the heroes that die in the Silmarillion are often the only sympathetic characters, and the center of all events, as opposed to one of several "goodies" in an ensemble in GOT. If LOTR's story was rewritten to fit the tone of much of the Silmarillion, Sauron would have won in FOTR, Frodo and Sam would have died at the moment of defeating him, and the story would end with Arwen committing suicide beside Aragorn's deathbed.

Edit: No GOT spoilers in here please!

I'm not sure why but that dystopian LOTR description made me laugh out loud and now people are looking at me strangely In a crowded lobby.

You make a goI'd point though. GOT exists in the gray. Silmarillion shows us a world where absolute evil almost always triumphs. I still think people could handle it, but the writing would have to be very good.

 

[green]

Edit: No GOT spoilers in here please!

Spoiler

Valar Morghulis

 

[DarkKnight88]

It would be impossible to do a Silmarillion miniseries on a miniseries budget.

This.
There is so much spectacle in the Silmarillion that I've yet to see any mini-series even approach it in terms of visuals (Game of Thrones doesn't even come close).

 

[ThePhantasm]

I have no desire to see someone butcher the Silmarillion, which is a great work of literature not well suited for cinematic or televised adaptation. People who think it could be turned into a GOT style show cannot possibly have actually read the book itself. There's no way anyone could afford such a show.

If no more cinematic Tolkien adaptations are ever made, I will be totally content. And I think Tolkien Estate has every right to hold on to his legacy and protect it from the video-game mentality of guys like Peter Jackson.

 

[regwec]

That's why I say it should be animation (of the artsy variety) if anything.

 

[Marvolo]

As much as I like Marvel and Disney, I would rather see Tolkein's work go to another Company if they WERE released. Though even as much Tolkein disliked Disney, the company in many ways isn't the same as it was back then


It still shocks me that the Estate won't release the other properties. Yeah, I understand the Estate unwilling to have them not properly made, but, PJ didn't COMPLETELY trash Hobbit and LOTR.

The estate (Chris and maybe others) feels that these films shift the public's perception of Tolkien and who and what he was. Chris has said before that Tolkien was more than just LOTR. And he certainly wasn't the films. He was a professor of ancient languages and ancient writings and a philologist. The estate feels that the films undermine the estates ability to draw attention to Tolkien's other equally, possibly more, important works such as his translations of Beowulf and Sigurd and Gawain etc.

Least that's something I read recently. I've always said that I think Chris took a ridiculous point of view on all this. The entire estate doesn't hate the films tho. Tolkien's great-grandson (Royd Tolkien) apparently loves the films and had a small cameo in the extended edition of Hobbit Desolation of Smaug. He is the guy that tosses the Morgul blade into the Witchking's tomb when the Witchking is being buried. Eventually a more open mind like Royd may be in charge of the estate but it could be many years before that happens.

 

[regwec]

I think PJ has done a lot to prove him right.